Roast St Kilda in no mans land - Part 2

[demondavey]

Agree - but somewhere like Caulfield race track would definitely work for a 30,000 stadium that the Hawks, Tigers and Saints could share. Hawks and Tigers still use MCG for their bigger fixtures but Caulfield for games against Suns, Freo etc.

Caulfield race course? Where though? Hawthorn and Richmond would not be playing there, they are cemented into the MCG. They’d laugh off sharing a ground with the Saints.

 

[demondavey]

They are doing fine in reality. Its peoples over expectations that are the issue more then anything. They are clearly a bottom 4 side but the young brigade they have is very strong and developing well. Week in week out they are fielding one of the youngest teams in the comp and have a fair few who are looking like 200+ gamers. NWM, Byrnes, Windhager, Phillipou, Wilson, Garcia, Owens, Hall, Sharman, Travaglia, Collard. McLennan from yesterdays game is a good core and start.

In a few more drafts time they will be back in finals contention. People just need to be patient

Well it’s either they are a genuine bottom 4 side or they’re actually gunning to be a top 8 side. If they are bottom 4 then it’s maybe plausible to do a full clean out like Hawthorn and start playing kids with some role players, I.e Chol etc

 

[HTPunter]

I think the original post has been proven to be correct. The Saints have finished 10th, 10th, 6th (elim final exit), 12th & are 13th this year since the post was made.

That’s no man’s land.

They desperately need 2 of their recent or next picks to become out and out superstars. Not “potential” like Max King

Multiple players found. Use birthday to differentiate. eg [PLAYERCARD="23/11/1962"]Joe Smith[/PLAYERCARD]

(he’s good but he’s never quite reached the top echelon of key forwards), or honest inside mids like Steele.

If NWM can become a top 3 half back/mid in the game & Phillipou can be a perennial Brownlow contender they can get out of it.
But if NWM is just around the AA squad & has 1-2 spike years, and Phillipou only makes 1-2 AA’s, hard to see.

 

[L_W_P]

I don't think NWM will head back to Adelaide this season. Port or crows haven't got a lot to trade.

NWM is better off signing in a 4 year extension at the end of this season and becomes a free agent in his 8th year

Port could bundle Bergman and some picks. If Nas says he wants out it might just be a matter of taking what we can get.

The other piece is Zak Butters.

Even if he doesn't come to the Saints, Port will get something decent for him which could then be used to secure NWM.

 

[littlecreatures]

Is he injured?

His body might not be holding up like it used to be. Seems like he has ongoing knee complaints. But fit enough to play

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Well it’s either they are a genuine bottom 4 side or they’re actually gunning to be a top 8 side. If they are bottom 4 then it’s maybe plausible to do a full clean out like Hawthorn and start playing kids with some role players, I.e Chol etc

They are doing that? They are the youngest team in the league most weeks, everyone is just ignoring it.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Yeah but by the time these blokes are reliable AFL players they also lose a bunch of good players - Marshall, Sinclair, Wilkie, Webster, Wood.

The main problem as I see it is the Saints dont have anything much in the 24-28 age category. Thats a very big hole. Youngsters coming up arent going to be enough.

You can apply the exact same logic to Richmond, Eagles and Melbourne too… well basically any bottom tier side besides North

Tigers have a much much bigger issue this way then St Kilda do

 

[bergholt]

Well it’s either they are a genuine bottom 4 side or they’re actually gunning to be a top 8 side. If they are bottom 4 then it’s maybe plausible to do a full clean out like Hawthorn and start playing kids with some role players, I.e Chol etc

Haha we're already playing the kids every week. Players under 50 games on the weekend:

11: Richmond
10:
9: North Melbourne, St Kilda, West Coast
8: Fremantle, Gold Coast
7: Carlton, Essendon, GWS, Port Adelaide, Western Bulldogs
6: Geelong, Melbourne
5: Adelaide, Brisbane, Hawthorn, Sydney
4:
3: Collingwood

Probably not super surprising we sometimes perform like a bottom 4 side considering we're rebuilding the same way the other bottom 4 sides are.

And this is without the benefit of super high picks, mostly because of past list management failures, partly because of inequities in father-son and academies. Cam McKenzie would be a handy sub-50 gamer for us right now!

 

[bergholt]

The main problem as I see it is the Saints dont have anything much in the 24-28 age category. Thats a very big hole.

Basically true. That's the experienced core who should be playing at their peak and driving performance consistently. Currently:

28: Butler (injured), Cordy (cooked)
27: Boyd (1 gamer)
26: Higgins (great), Clark (injured)
25: Dow (injured), Stocker (injured)
24: King (injured), Sharman (ok)

There's not enough in that group; and of the ones we have we're literally getting two of those on the park at the moment. So we're relying on mostly cooked veterans like Steele and Hill, and still inexperienced kids like Nas and Owens and Byrnes.

Past list management failures still hurting big time.

 

[Hamingja]

The move to Seaford made sense from a business perspective but the players and coaches sooked it up and eventually the board pulled the plug.

Hindsight would say the best shot we had at off field development (out side of Moorabbin) would have been to go all in on Casey Fields.

Take over the Casey Saints VFL team. Base the AFLW team there. So exactly what Melbourne have done.

The players and coaches have really screwed you on a couple of counts.

You guys had the same opportunity in Tassie as the Hawks did.

Thomas and the players sooked it up.

Hawks embraced it and got a great niche home ground advantage on field and strong financial deal off field and leverage that into a very succesful era for the club.

Then the training base at Seaford / Casey is a similiar opportunity missed.

Players could live in Mt Martha/Dromana/Rosebud/Sorrento/Portsea and it would be a selling point to players like Anglesea/Torquay/Moggs Creek etc has been for Geelong.

 

[WillHayward]

Basically true. That's the experienced core who should be playing at their peak and driving performance consistently. Currently:

28: Butler (injured), Cordy (cooked)
27: Boyd (1 gamer)
26: Higgins (great), Clark (injured)
25: Dow (injured), Stocker (injured)
24: King (injured), Sharman (ok)

There's not enough in that group; and of the ones we have we're literally getting two of those on the park at the moment. So we're relying on mostly cooked veterans like Steele and Hill, and still inexperienced kids like Nas and Owens and Byrnes.

Past list management failures still hurting big time.

Explains why you are prepared to be balls deep into Bergman and TDK.

Clearly identified that age group needs to be filled with some quality.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The players and coaches have really screwed you on a couple of counts.

You guys had the same opportunity in Tassie as the Hawks did.

Thomas and the players sooked it up.

Hawks embraced it and got a great niche home ground advantage on field and strong financial deal off field and leverage that into a very succesful era for the club.

Then the training base at Seaford / Casey is a similiar opportunity missed.

Players could live in Mt Martha/Dromana/Rosebud/Sorrento/Portsea and it would be a selling point to players like Anglesea/Torquay/Moggs Creek etc has been for Geelong.

Except it wasn't. We didn't have dodgy real estate deals.
The players didn't actually like it.

 

[Hamingja]

Except it wasn't. We didn't have dodgy real estate deals.
The players didn't actually like it.

The senior players didn't like it because they had to drive from Brighton to Seaford.

The long term vision should have been sold to them and if Riewoldt and Goddard & co were sooking about it, too bad. Do what is best for the club long term. Tail doesn't wag the dog at a succesful club.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I think the original post has been proven to be correct. The Saints have finished 10th, 10th, 6th (elim final exit), 12th & are 13th this year since the post was made.

That’s no man’s land.

They desperately need 2 of their recent or next picks to become out and out superstars. Not “potential” like Max King (he’s good but he’s never quite reached the top echelon of key forwards), or honest inside mids like Steele.

If NWM can become a top 3 half back/mid in the game & Phillipou can be a perennial Brownlow contender they can get out of it.
But if NWM is just around the AA squad & has 1-2 spike years, and Phillipou only makes 1-2 AA’s, hard to see.

Good call. If years later, we're still debating whether they're in No Man's Land or not - then I think you've found your answer!

 

[WillHayward]

The players and coaches have really screwed you on a couple of counts.

You guys had the same opportunity in Tassie as the Hawks did.

Thomas and the players sooked it up.

Hawks embraced it and got a great niche home ground advantage on field and strong financial deal off field and leverage that into a very succesful era for the club.

Then the training base at Seaford / Casey is a similiar opportunity missed.

Players could live in Mt Martha/Dromana/Rosebud/Sorrento/Portsea and it would be a selling point to players like Anglesea/Torquay/Moggs Creek etc has been for Geelong.

It's not a bad point. "Seaford" which was actually Carrum Downs and right on the freeway was a terrible decision and quite possibly some dodgy corrupt land deal happened.
Could have still been in that vicinity but made it picturesque and nearer the beach and not on the freeway.

 

[WillHayward]

Except it wasn't. We didn't have dodgy real estate deals.
The players didn't actually like it.

Because it was in a swamp next to the freeway. It wasn't even in Seaford. It was an absolute disgrace and I believe something dodgy happened with Saints exec and the land holder

 

[Atomboy]

The issue St Kilda has is that they’ve missed the boat on two fronts; before suburbia exploded in Moorabbin they should have done a huge development there aka GMHBA. Now they’ve missed the boat and it’s become a training centre but they’re stuck playing home games at the Dome.

They missed doing it at Casey, although I don’t think local supporters would have swallowed driving out there albeit to a shiny new stadium. Someone mentioned acquiring the Casey VFL side. Idea is great but you’re asking all your fans to go to Casey fields. No train.

They need to get away from the Dome and somehow push for more MCG time. Play as many games as possible there. Now whilst the WB haven’t been hampered by this they have a far better head coach and off field network.

The last point is Ross Lyon. He was a great coach at St Kilda and Fremantle, taking them to GF but the game has passed him. The whole place needs an enormous review and I think they need a younger more progressive coach. They need to lean into the Collingwood, Brisbane, Geelong camps etc to try and find their next coach.

If certain clubs are the benchmark then St Kilda should be looking at them.

The Moorabbin ship sailed 35 years ago when we moved to Waverley. No chance in hell a decent stadium would now be allowed in suburban Moorabbin, either by the local council or AFL HQ.

Us helping to pay off the Dome is quite a good arrangement for the AFL. Wasn’t that long ago we were having to pay them for crowds under 25k.

I doubt the powers that be would ever allows us to setup a boutique stadium anywhere in Southern Melbourne either….

 

[Atomboy]

Because it was in a swamp next to the freeway. It wasn't even in Seaford. It was an absolute disgrace and I believe something dodgy happened with Saints exec and the land holder

Big claims, where was this reported ?

 

[littlecreatures]

The Moorabbin ship sailed 35 years ago when we moved to Waverley. No chance in hell a decent stadium would now be allowed in suburban Moorabbin, either by the local council or AFL HQ.

Us helping to pay off the Dome is quite a good arrangement for the AFL. Wasn’t that long ago we were having to pay them for crowds under 25k.

I doubt the powers that be would ever allows us to setup a boutique stadium anywhere in Southern Melbourne either….

Waverley needed to be used as negotiating mechanism with MCC for MCG. Not much has changed in that period of time. AFL now needs teams pulling people through the door at their prime asset the Dome.

 

[WillHayward]

Big claims, where was this reported ?

Which part?
That it was a shit swamp by the freeway?
No evidence about a dodgy deal but I have my suspicions.
I grew up around that area and know the area well and that was an absolutely shit parcel of land in an awful location..windy swamp near freeway and a pain in the ass to get to
It's no wonder the players didn't like it.
Very poor decision and very suss.
Archie Fraser or whatever his name is.

 

[WillHayward]

I still think the opportunity for a stadium in the south east is there. As long as it's on a good train line/hub/station.

At some time in the future the Docklands land might be worth a fortune to developers and worth selling off.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Haha we're already playing the kids every week. Players under 50 games on the weekend:

11: Richmond
10:
9: North Melbourne, St Kilda, West Coast
8: Fremantle, Gold Coast
7: Carlton, Essendon, GWS, Port Adelaide, Western Bulldogs
6: Geelong, Melbourne
5: Adelaide, Brisbane, Hawthorn, Sydney
4:
3: Collingwood

Probably not super surprising we sometimes perform like a bottom 4 side considering we're rebuilding the same way the other bottom 4 sides are.

And this is without the benefit of super high picks, mostly because of past list management failures, partly because of inequities in father-son and academies. Cam McKenzie would be a handy sub-50 gamer for us right now!

Thats ignoring the fact that unlike the others you got less in the 24-28 age range so with that in mind just have less senior experience all round

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Explains why you are prepared to be balls deep into Bergman and TDK.

Clearly identified that age group needs to be filled with some quality.

Its what creates the huge amount of salary cap room. High salaries exist for those in the 24-28 age range and well St Kilda dont have many in it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Because it was in a swamp next to the freeway. It wasn't even in Seaford. It was an absolute disgrace and I believe something dodgy happened with Saints exec and the land holder

Huh?
The map i have says its in seaford.
The Gym which is now using the building has the address :
151 East Rd, Seaford VIC 3198

A 15 Minute walk from "Seaford Hotel".

Its not a swamp , the undeveloped land next to the oval is "Belvedere Bushland Reserve".

I believe the land was , and remains owned by the Frankston Council, so your "belief" is up there with the tooth fairy.

 

[bergholt]

Explains why you are prepared to be balls deep into Bergman and TDK.

Clearly identified that age group needs to be filled with some quality.

Exactly. When your list is good, most of your salary cap goes to players in that group. Who else are we going to pay?