Aboriginal & TSI Decline in Indigenous AFL players. Should the AFL do more to address it?

[GC2015]

Even still the aboriginal and Torres Strait islander representation in afl is under-represented compared to league. League also has a high representation of islander heritage like you mentioned.

Just purely comparing the make-up of two national sporting leagues is not a good way of determining whether a demographic is under represented. The national Indigenous population of Australia is roughly 3.8% and the AFL is currently made up of 8% Indigenous players. So Indigenous Australians are actually over represented in the AFL. To try and suggest that Indigenous Australians are under represented in the AFL, just purely because there's a higher percentage in the NRL, would be a very poor way of interpreting statistics.

It's also important to point out that the actual number of Indigenous players in each league is roughly the same because the AFL has larger lists. Both leagues have approximately 65-70 Indigenous players at the moment.

 

[Bjo187]

I'd be concerned by the lack of European background and anglo Australians playing in the NRL, how can the significant majority of the population be so under represented in that sport?

 

[faible]

This thread has taken an unsurprisingly weird turn.

 

[hampton]

I'd be concerned by the lack of European background and anglo Australians playing in the NRL, how can the significant majority of the population be so under represented in that sport?

There's about 45-50% pacifica heritage in the NRL, 15% aboriginal/torres straight islander, so that leaves 35-40% 'white' aka european / others, given there's few black african or asian heritage players. It's not a tiny percent.

Pacifica, indigineous, black people generally make up a higher percentage of top athletes in many sports given natural athletic abilities, especially for sports that require strength, size, contact, speed and endurance. It's curious that AFL has so few, given the types of skills required in the sport. The Israel Folau $4m marketing ploy that afl house tried didn't result in this community being attracted to afl, but as per the thread title it's probably more of an issue of the decline in indigenous numbers and what can the AFL do to combat that.

 

[Bjo187]

The difference is Aboriginals that play rugby are mostly from metro areas, the Aboriginals that play Aussie rules are from n.t and remote w.a etc. So AFL clubs find it takes too many resources and it's too much of a jump to a professional environment for the majority of these kids.

It was fine back in the 90s when you could just get by just on talent, but the level in detail of game plans, professionalism etc is massive now. It's why clubs lean towards private school educated kids more as well now. For the more basic sports with not many tactics and a limited skill set, this isn't as much of an issue.

The numbers that play are still massive from the aboriginal community, but the AFL being an ultra professional environment now makes it harder for that transition. In contrast, most Aboriginals in the NRL come from western Sydney and Qld and are already living in Metro areas, so don't have to move far outta there familiar environments to play in the professional league.

 

[faible]

There's about 45-50% pacifica heritage in the NRL, 15% aboriginal/torres straight islander, so that leaves 35-40% 'white' aka european / others, given there's few black african or asian heritage players. It's not a tiny percent.

Pacifica, indigineous, black people generally make up a higher percentage of top athletes in many sports given natural athletic abilities, especially for sports that require strength, size, contact, speed and endurance. It's curious that AFL has so few, given the types of skills required in the sport. The Israel Folau $4m marketing ploy that afl house tried didn't result in this community being attracted to afl, but as per the thread title it's probably more of an issue of the decline in indigenous numbers and what can the AFL do to combat that.

AFL and NRL are vastly different athletic profiles.

NRL is closer to NFL than AFL; size, strength, power. All short-burst and body mass.

AFL has a massive endurance component that puts it closer to soccer. Pacific Islanders tend to be big, strong, and heavy. Not useful traits for endurance running.

 

[faible]

The difference is Aboriginals that play rugby are mostly from metro areas, the Aboriginals that play Aussie rules are from n.t and remote w.a etc. So AFL clubs find it takes too many resources and it's too much of a jump to a professional environment for the majority of these kids.

It was fine back in the 90s when you could just get by just on talent, but the level in detail of game plans, professionalism etc is massive now. It's why clubs lean towards private school educated kids more as well now. For the more basic sports with not many tactics and a limited skill set, this isn't as much of an issue.

The numbers that play are still massive from the aboriginal community, but the AFL being an ultra professional environment now makes it harder for that transition. In contrast, most Aboriginals in the NRL come from western Sydney and Qld and are already living in Metro areas, so don't have to move far outta there familiar environments to play in the professional league.

IMO if the AFL is serious about increasing the numbers of aboriginal players, there needs to be some form of separate rookie type list where you can stash them for a few extra years without the pressure of list spots, and some extra funding to help with the challenges of coming from a remote community to a highly professional sports environment.

A lot of these kids only get a couple of years with limited support because the clubs simply don't have the list space, or the support resources to give them the best chance at making it.

Meanwhile if you've grown up in the city and gone through the private school system, you'll already have done a fair amount of preparation for the full-time professional club environment so the transition is much, much easier.

 

[hampton]

AFL and NRL are vastly different athletic profiles.

NRL is closer to NFL than AFL; size, strength, power. All short-burst and body mass.

AFL has a massive endurance component that puts it closer to soccer. Pacific Islanders tend to be big, strong, and heavy. Not useful traits for endurance running.

NRL players have a lot more endurance requirements than NFL players (and union counterparts also) because there’s only one half, few stoppages and constant offence and defence means there’s a lot of fatigue. Though similar contact / strength with big hits and tackles, more so than union and afl for example.

Soccer has a wider assortment of nationalities and ethnicities than afl which you can see in a-league games.

AFL ethnicity profile is more similar to cricket- way more Anglo oriented. And player shape is more similar to basketball than soccer.

 

[faible]

NRL players have a lot more endurance requirements than NFL players (and union counterparts also) because there’s only one half, few stoppages and constant offence and defence means there’s a lot of fatigue. Though similar contact / strength with big hits and tackles, more so than union and afl for example.

Soccer has a wider assortment of nationalities and ethnicities than afl which you can see in a-league games.

AFL ethnicity profile is more similar to cricket- way more Anglo oriented. And player shape is more similar to basketball than soccer.

Basketball and AFL have very different athletic requirements. I'm not sure I agree with your premise that AFL and the NBA have more similar body types than soccer either.

From a very quick search, average heights:

EPL: 182.75cm
AFL: 188.1cm
NBA: 198.6cm

NFL and NRL are closer in athletic requirements than NRL and AFL are.

Yes, AFL player profile is very white dominated, which isn't that surprising given it's a very small, localised sport played in a historically majority white country and was commonly a winter sport for cricketers, with an outsized (but still small) level of Aboriginal participation at the professional level.

 

[Rob R]

Would it help if the Academy rules were tightened to encourage clubs to put more effort into regional communities and indigenous people who may not have access to the same opportunities instead of people already playing afl from established families who in some cases don't even know they are indigenous until.a club goes looking for a way to get them though an Academy.

 

[P Money]

Would it help if the Academy rules were tightened to encourage clubs to put more effort into regional communities and indigenous people who may not have access to the same opportunities instead of people already playing afl from established families who in some cases don't even know they are indigenous until.a club goes looking for a way to get them though an Academy.

I'd be very surprised if the last part of this post is true. I'd assume that Indigenous players coming through an Academy would need a Confirmation of Aboriginality (COA) for eligibility. I don't think anybody is doing genealogy research on prospective players and informing them that they've found an Aboriginal great great great aunt and then putting them through the Academy system. A key part of a COA is community recognition, which isn't about descent but community and cultural connection. This is the case for almost if not all gov't programs aimed at supporting First Nations people, and I'd be shocked if it wasn't part of the Academy rules.

I think by far the greatest challenge stems from the ever-increasing professionality of the game, that isn't designed by, with or for Aboriginal people who are expected to transition from very different ways of living into a very rigid 'white' system with limited supports (cultural or otherwise). The unfortunate thing is that with each decline in Aboriginal participation, it is infinitely more difficult for the next wave of Aboriginal players to succeed in that transition - it's an exponential disadvantage that needs to be addressed ASAP.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Let’s have the northern states lead the charge given they have academy advantages. All northern states will have an equality quota of indigenous players placed on them to draft each year as a % of recruits.

 

[Obeanie1]

AFL mandates that every club gets extra Cat B rookie spots and they MUST use them.

That would get more indigenous AFL players.

Right now Eagles hold an empty Cat B spot and decided against offering it to an eligible NGA or use the pick in the rookie draft.

More list spots available for indigenous kids that must be filled is how you get more players in the system

 

[Rob R]

I'd be very surprised if the last part of this post is true. I'd assume that Indigenous players coming through an Academy would need a Confirmation of Aboriginality (COA) for eligibility. I don't think anybody is doing genealogy research on prospective players and informing them that they've found an Aboriginal great great great aunt and then putting them through the Academy system. A key part of a COA is community recognition, which isn't about descent but community and cultural connection. This is the case for almost if not all gov't programs aimed at supporting First Nations people, and I'd be shocked if it wasn't part of the Academy rules.

I think by far the greatest challenge stems from the ever-increasing professionality of the game, that isn't designed by, with or for Aboriginal people who are expected to transition from very different ways of living into a very rigid 'white' system with limited supports (cultural or otherwise). The unfortunate thing is that with each decline in Aboriginal participation, it is infinitely more difficult for the next wave of Aboriginal players to succeed in that transition - it's an exponential disadvantage that needs to be addressed ASAP.

Absolutely recognition by the community is a key part but Cochrane is an example (next years number 1 pick) didn't know he was indigenous until Port Adelaide found out. He has committed to learning more as part of obtaining recognition so he could be in the Academy, hopefully he will continue to be interested after draft day.


Your main point, I agree on. Indigenous people can be just as if not more disciplined which is what footy needs however like other disadvantaged parts of the community, some may need more help to transition to the professionalism request for elite sport (which isn't a white thing, it is just modern society and something many people struggle with). Some parts of military training lose 50% of students(across all backgrounds) during training as they can't handle the change in culture

 

[GC2015]

Absolutely recognition by the community is a key part but Cochrane is an example (next years number 1 pick) didn't know he was indigenous until Port Adelaide found out. He has committed to learning more as part of obtaining recognition so he could be in the Academy, hopefully he will continue to be interested after draft day.

We saw it happen with Jason Horne-Francis only discovering his Indigenous roots AFTER he was drafted to North. Although it wouldn't have made any difference in terms of where he was drafted because there was an exclusion on NGA graduates who are bid on with a first round pick in 2021 and we know JHF was always going to be a top 5 pick regardless of whether he was club tied or not. I guess this is just the nature of what happened historically with the stolen generation and the secrecy that came with it.

There's probably lots of Australians out there that are of Indigenous heritage and they may never know it. I remember Wayne Carey once saying that he believed there was a chance that he was of Indigenous descent from the Wagga Wagga NSW region where he grew up, but he had no reason to delve deeper to find out if it was true. Players like Cochrane do have reason to delve deeper now because it's going to have a big impact on his football journey with the existence of the NGAs.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the best/most talented players in the AFL and NRL right now are generally accepted to be Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera & Reece Walsh and both happen to be of Indigenous heritage. Last decade it was Greg Inglis & Buddy Franklin, the decade before that we saw stars like Johnathan Thurston and Adam Goodes dominating. Riolis, Longs, Wanganeens, Materas, Burgoynes, Picketts, Farmers etc.

There's such a rich history of talented Indigenous footballers in the AFL/NRL that have entertained millions of Aussie sports fans with their flair for many decades and it would be foolish for either code to not put resources towards the development of Indigenous juniors around Australia. Their significant contribution to the sports we love should not be underestimated or downplayed and the fact that Indigenous Australians are massively over represented in the AFL/NRL per capita when compared to the overall population just makes the influence even more impressive. Long may it continue.

 

[Bjo187]

We saw it happen with Jason Horne-Francis only discovering his Indigenous roots AFTER he was drafted to North. Although it wouldn't have made any difference in terms of where he was drafted because there was an exclusion on NGA graduates who are bid on with a first round pick in 2021 and we know JHF was always going to be a top 5 pick regardless of whether he was club tied or not. I guess this is just the nature of what happened historically with the stolen generation and the secrecy that came with it.

There's probably lots of Australians out there that are of Indigenous heritage and they may never know it. I remember Wayne Carey once saying that he believed there was a chance that he was of Indigenous descent from the Wagga Wagga NSW region where he grew up, but he had no reason to delve deeper to find out if it was true. Players like Cochrane do have reason to delve deeper now because it's going to have a big impact on his football journey with the existence of the NGAs.

This is the whole point though isn't it, if they had no idea whatsover that they were indigenous, how was it possibly a barrier to their opportunities being realised? Which is the whole point of the academy system, to help kids from non traditional backgrounds make it to the AFL.

 

[GC2015]

This is the whole point though isn't it, if they had no idea whatsover that they were indigenous, how was it possibly a barrier to their opportunities being realised? Which is the whole point of the academy system, to help kids from non traditional backgrounds make it to the AFL.

I think the most important factor when it comes to junior development is access to opportunity. It's obvious that an Indigenous footballer in remote NT is not going to have the same kind of access to opportunity as your average junior in Adelaide or Melbourne. So I think we can all see the benefits of NGAs being set up in those areas.

Now... we know the league wants to increase the number of Indigenous players in the AFL. It's part of the reason they brought back the Indigenous All Stars game last year in the hopes that it would inspire the next generation of Indigenous people to play Aussie rules and pursue an AFL career that would (hopefully) include Indigenous All Stars representation.

Dougie Cochrane is a bad example of what we're discussing because he was clearly going to be drafted regardless. However, I think the NGAs can be particularly helpful for those Indigenous/Multicultural kids who are on the fringe of getting drafted and maybe their experience in their respective NGA just gets them over the hump and drafted onto an AFL list.

Dougie Cochrane's brother, Tom, is perhaps a better example of an Indigenous junior (who didn't know he was Indigenous) that was right on the verge of getting drafted / not getting drafted and probably would've benefitted from being a part of Port Adelaide's NGA for several years leading up to his draft year. In the end, Tom Cochrane did get rookie drafted but it could've easily gone the other way if Port had decided to go a different way and a potential Indigenous AFL player would've been lost. You see what I mean?

 

[Bjo187]

I agree with the academies, I just don't see the point in white raised kids getting these places meant for genuine indigenous talent, when they have had no barriers to making the AFL if they were good enough anyway. It's almost like artificially bumping up the numbers for no real benefit and taking the place of another fully indigenous kid from a remote community.

 

[GC2015]

I agree with the academies, I just don't see the point in white raised kids getting these places meant for genuine indigenous talent, when they have had no barriers to making the AFL if they were good enough anyway. It's almost like artificially bumping up the numbers for no real benefit and taking the place of another fully indigenous kid from a remote community.

I think you have to be really careful with the words you use on a topic like this because the way you've written that could be perceived as you suggesting Dougie Cochrane's Indigenous heritage is not genuine. Your heritage is your heritage, my heritage is my heritage and his heritage is his heritage. Cochrane is Indigenous - that's a fact.

You can't deny someone's heritage just because he doesn't fit your idea of what a 'genuine Indigenous talent' should look like or where they should come from. Now if the AFL wanted to set up a separate development program specifically designed to develop Indigenous juniors from remote areas then we can talk about whether a junior like Cochrane should be included in that, but that's not what the NGAs are. The South Australian NGA zones do include metropolitan areas and therefore Cochrane is eligible to participate. The same can be said about another prospective top 2 pick from Adelaide in Zemes Pilot, who is also Indigenous and will be draft eligible in 2027.

 

[Bjo187]

I think you have to be really careful with the words you use on a topic like this because the way you've written that could be perceived as you suggesting Dougie Cochrane's Indigenous heritage is not genuine. Your heritage is your heritage, my heritage is my heritage and his heritage is his heritage. Cochrane is Indigenous - that's a fact.

You can't deny someone's heritage just because he doesn't fit your idea of what a 'genuine Indigenous talent' should look like or where they should come from. Now if the AFL wanted to set up a separate development program specifically designed to develop Indigenous juniors from remote areas then we can talk about whether a junior like Cochrane should be included in that, but that's not what the NGAs are. The South Australian NGA zones do include metropolitan areas and therefore Cochrane is eligible to participate. The same can be said about another prospective top 2 pick from Adelaide in Zemes Pilot, who is also Indigenous and will be draft eligible in 2027.

This is the exact problem, though: because it’s effectively off-limits to question, the issue never gets properly addressed. The system is designed to identify and support Indigenous kids who are genuinely disadvantaged because of their background. But when someone doesn’t even know they’re Indigenous until age 16, after already being an elite junior, with a former AFL-player father and a comfortable suburban upbringing, it’s hard to argue they face the same barriers as a kid who visibly looks and identifies as Aboriginal, grows up in a disadvantaged community, and experiences cultural and systemic obstacles from an early age.

Treating those situations as equivalent risks undermining the purpose of the program and may ultimately make it less effective at helping the players it was intended to support to get onto an AFL list. It also undermines the integrity of the draft, when pick one suddenly becomes an academy player.

 

[GC2015]

This is the exact problem, though: because it’s effectively off-limits to question, the issue never gets properly addressed. The system is designed to identify and support Indigenous kids who are genuinely disadvantaged because of their background. But when someone doesn’t even know they’re Indigenous until age 16, after already being an elite junior, with a former AFL-player father and a comfortable suburban upbringing, it’s hard to argue they face the same barriers as a kid who visibly looks and identifies as Aboriginal, grows up in a disadvantaged community, and experiences cultural and systemic obstacles from an early age.

Treating those situations as equivalent risks undermining the purpose of the program and may ultimately make it less effective at helping the players it was intended to support to get onto an AFL list. It also undermines the integrity of the draft, when pick one suddenly becomes an academy player.

This how the AFL website defines the NGAs:

The Next Generation Academy program is a joint initiative between the AFL and its clubs to increase participation numbers among Indigenous Australians and those with multicultural backgrounds. Fourteen clubs (excluding those in NSW and Queensland, who instead of NGAs have special access to talent through their northern academies) are allocated a region in Australia to implement their NGA program, which aims to increase participation for those with a diverse background, who have traditionally been under-represented in the game. Clubs are rewarded for their investment by getting priority access to talented players from their NGAs when they are ready for AFL/AFLW level.

There's nothing in there about 'Indigenous kids who are genuinely disadvantaged' or 'a kid who visibly looks and identifies as Aboriginal, grows up in a disadvantaged community, and experiences cultural and systemic obstacles from an early age' like you suggest. For some reason, you're trying to add separate elements of criteria that don't exist...

According to the AFL, the goal is to "increase participation numbers among Indigenous Australians and those with muticultural backgrounds" as outlined in the first sentence. The AFL has approved metropolitan Adelaide as a region that is included in both South Australian NGAs and therefore the program is working as intended by developing Indigenous talents into AFL players like Dougie Cochrane (2026) and Zemes Pilot (2027). Now that Cochrane has been approved for NGA status, he will switch from his current club Central Districts and start playing SANFL footy full-time for the Port Adelaide reserves side next season and that's obviously going help his development. So his pathway into the AFL will significantly change because of his approved NGA status.

 

[Bjo187]

Yeah I suppose I don't consider someone with 3% indigenous ancestry as indigenous though, they are more the other 97%, particularly the guys that haven't grown up around the culture whatsover.

The nga's for multicultural players have a cut off at the parents being from overseas, the indigenous qualifications there is no cut off, it's why it's so easily exploited and in my opinion, only impacts the other indigenous kids by taking those spots.

 

[P Money]

Yeah I suppose I don't consider someone with 3% indigenous ancestry as indigenous though, they are more the other 97%, particularly the guys that haven't grown up around the culture whatsover.

The nga's for multicultural players have a cut off at the parents being from overseas, the indigenous qualifications there is no cut off, it's why it's so easily exploited and in my opinion, only impacts the other indigenous kids by taking those spots.

Let's just leave it to the Aboriginal community to decide who they recognise as Indigenous shall we?

 

[Bjo187]

Let's just leave it to the Aboriginal community to decide who they recognise as Indigenous shall we?

We can, but knowing people that have lived in the n.t, I'm lead to believe full Aboriginals don't even consider people that are half as "one of them".

It just needs to be a reasonable cut off similar to the multicultural academies of a parent or grandparent. The equivalent in some of these cases would be someone doing a DNA test and seeing they're 5% South African ancestry and that making them become available as an NGA multicultural talent.

 

[South of the Yarra]

We can, but knowing people that have lived in the n.t, I'm lead to believe full Aboriginals don't even consider people that are half as "one of them".

It just needs to be a reasonable cut off similar to the multicultural academies of a parent or grandparent. The equivalent in some of these cases would be someone doing a DNA test and seeing they're 5% South African ancestry and that making them become available as an NGA multicultural talent.

Absolute Rubbish. Please don’t use the words ‘full’ and ‘half’. It is insulting.