Mega Thread Nick Daicos - Can he be the GTWEB? Part 2

[Fadge]

And why is there no crying over Bont missing BOG? He had 15 score involvements to Naicos 13, he had 6 interceptions to Naicos 2. He was 37% contested to 26%.

This is my favourite narrative.

Maybe Daicos should have had fewer possessions, so as the percentage of contested possessions was higher.

Interesting you reference interceptions. Rarely see that stat referenced. Is it because it's one of the few stats Bont was superior in?

What about total possessions?
Total effective possessions?
Goal Assists?
Tackles?
Metres Gained?

How did Bont get his goal again?

Noone is commenting about Bont missing BOG, because he wasn't BOG. Daicos was.

 

[Fadge]

Make whatever arguments you want. It's when you make grandiose declarations and state that they are facts, where they can quite easily be challenged.

Defenders and forwards generally aren't going to be big vote stealers. Perhaps if they are at that Jeremy Cameron level, or your AA half backs (think Houston and Sinclair type players...but even many of these don't feature that heavily).

Collingwood have been a strong side, particularly in 2023. Exceptionally well coached, elite defensive group and underrated general forwards + utilities. A stack of veterans holding up very well. These players performing their role competently are not going to steal votes in the same way Black, Voss, Akermanis did. Or Judd, Cousins, Kerr. Or the best Geelong midfields. Or the 2010 era Collingwood midfield.

Now the Bulldogs, Port, Fremantle and Sydney teams of the past few years aren't at that level. However they have had prime movers in the midfield who are big vote stealers in various years. Bont has had Libba, Macrae, Treloar and then last year Richards. Butters has had Rozee and JHF. Serong has had Brayshaw. Heeney has had Warner and Gulden.

Who has Daicos had 2023-2025? Prime DeGoey one year. Then mid 30s Pendles/Sidebottom/Crisp (players this age never poll heavily) and periphery parts like Mitchell, Long etc.

So yeah, it is a factor when you're talking about podium finishes and all the rest- when the difference between 3rd and 8th etc is often negligible to begin with. It doesn't mean Collingwood have been a poor team carried by Daicos. It's just a good environment to stockpile votes.

2023 for the reasons you've stated was his best year, unfortunate injury aside. He may well have taken home 2 or 3 of the big 3 and the BnF. We'll never know. There is no season so far where he has clearly been the best player in the comp, and it remains unsupported if you state he has clearly been the best player in the comp over any period so far.

A lot of waffle to miss answering my question.

Who are the '5 to 10 midfielders since 2023, who you can throw in with Daicos, with barely anything separating them?

I listed Bont, Serong, Butters, Neale, Heeney and Cripps above, and there is absolute separation between those players. You've suggested there are up to another three players, with barely anything separating them... I'd love to know who these other three players are.

Oh boy.

 

[Cdog71]

This is my favourite narrative.

Maybe Daicos should have had fewer possessions, so as the percentage of contested possessions was higher.

Interesting you reference interceptions. Rarely see that stat referenced. Is it because it's one of the few stats Bont was superior in?

What about total possessions?
Total effective possessions?
Goal Assists?
Tackles?
Metres Gained?

How did Bont get his goal again?

Noone is commenting about Bont missing BOG, because he wasn't BOG. Daicos was.

Also went head to head with Warner most of the game. Warner had 16
Daicos started on Cripps and was moved off him after the way Cripps started.

 

[ShereKhan]

Who are the 5 or 10 midfielders you can throw Daicos in with, with barely anything separating their influence?

Bont is the closest, but he's played a single, disappointing finals game in that time.

Serong the next. With zero podium finishes in the big awards, and also minimal finals appearances.

Butters the next probably. But also underwhelming finals performances.

Neale? At least he has a finals CV to support the argument, but just the single AA.

Heeney? Who has had a single year amongst the top 10 performed players in the competition, when he made the leap from potential superstar to bona fide superstar as a 28 year old in 2024.

Any others to make up your 10? Do we need to include the single AA Cripps?

If footy lovers like the players who win fierce contests at the coalface, or can win contests up forward and turn a game with some quick goals scored from those contests, of course they’d rate Butters, Serong, Bont, Heeney, Rowell higher than Naicos.

This is not about award votes or coaches giving votes to their favourites … it’s about watching the games and seeing these fierce contests won and thinking ‘wow … that effort just turned the game or sealed a win’.

Like Danger in the PF against the Hawks … a game you finished watching and just couldn’t believe what he did at 35yo, dominating every contest he entered by brute force and sheer will.

Or Heeney in the QF of 2024 against GWS - 30 disposals, 18 contested. 3 goals, 5 I50’s, 7 clearances … it was a player single handedly ripping the game away from the opposition in a game they had no right to win. It was extraordinary.

Daicos isn’t that type of player. He accumulates and has amazing stamina and footy IQ. He’s death by a thousand cuts and he’s excellent. He can outrun anyone and knows how to find space to get plenty of outside ball, which is great as he can use his skills and decision making.

But if footy followers love the fierce contest, which a lot do as they remember footy when it was a lot more physical, then it’s not surprising they think others are better than Naicos.

The way Pie fans think ‘how on earth is that possible?’ is pretty short sighted. It’s like wondering how on earth anyone can rate Adam Gilchrist or Viv Richards superior to Steve Smith when he averages 10% more than them and scored a lot more test runs.

Sometimes just watching games and seeing contests won/lost tells you who the better players are … Brownlow votes and podium finishes in awards aren’t the deciding factor for most supporters. If they were Cripps is the best player ever and Stevie Johnson (never top-5 in a B&F his entire career) is a spud.

 

[Fadge]

But Bont is a lot more stiffed in other awards, like Brownlow votes. The year Cripps got 45 votes Bont was clearly the best player of the season and got about 20 votes.

Huh?

Heeney says 'Hi'. He was the best performed player in 2024.

Neale says 'Hi'. Who similarly underpolled in the Brownlow, finished slightly higher in the Coaches Award, and won the Gary Ayres Medal as a premiership player.

Cripps says 'Hi' - Brownlow winner, 2nd in the Coaches Award and 2nd in the Players MVP.

Daicos says 'Hi'.

Bont possibly in 5th place. Very underwhelming finals performance.

 

[Fadge]

If footy lovers like the players who win fierce contests at the coalface, or can win contests up forward and turn a game with some quick goals scored from those contests, of course they’d rate Butters, Serong, Bont, Heeney, Rowell higher than Naicos.

This is not about award votes or coaches giving votes to their favourites … it’s about watching the games and seeing these fierce contests won and thinking ‘wow … that effort just turned the game or sealed a win’.

Like Danger in the PF against the Hawks … a game you finished watching and just couldn’t believe what he did at 35yo, dominating every contest he entered by brute force and sheer will.

Or Heeney in the QF of 2024 against GWS - 30 disposals, 18 contested. 3 goals, 5 I50’s, 7 clearances … it was a player single handedly ripping the game away from the opposition in a game they had no right to win. It was extraordinary.

Daicos isn’t that type of player. He accumulates and has amazing stamina and footy IQ. He’s death by a thousand cuts and he’s excellent. He can outrun anyone and knows how to find space to get plenty of outside ball, which is great as he can use his skills and decision making.

But if footy followers love the fierce contest, which a lot do as they remember footy when it was a lot more physical, then it’s not surprising they think others are better than Naicos.

The way Pie fans think ‘how on earth is that possible?’ is pretty short sighted. It’s like wondering how on earth anyone can rate Adam Gilchrist or Viv Richards superior to Steve Smith when he averages 10% more than them and scored a lot more test runs.

Sometimes just watching games and seeing contests won/lost tells you who the better players are … Brownlow votes and podium finishes in awards aren’t the deciding factor for most supporters. If they were Cripps is the best player ever and Stevie Johnson (never top-5 in a B&F his entire career) is a spud.

Yeah, maybe you want to go back through the archives and count how many times Daicos has been highly influential in a win. I'll give you a clue - the percentage of games in which he's been a matchwinner is significantly more than Butters, or Bont or Serong or Heeney or Rowell, and the number of games from the 95 he's played so far in which he's been a matchwinner is infinitely more than the same players had in their first 95 games.

 

[ShereKhan]

This is my favourite narrative.

Maybe Daicos should have had fewer possessions, so as the percentage of contested possessions was higher.

Interesting you reference interceptions. Rarely see that stat referenced. Is it because it's one of the few stats Bont was superior in?

What about total possessions?
Total effective possessions?
Goal Assists?
Tackles?
Metres Gained?

How did Bont get his goal again?

Noone is commenting about Bont missing BOG, because he wasn't BOG. Daicos was.

No. Ash was. Just like Darcy Cameron was your B&F.

This is why Naicos gets booed … because Pie fans think he can do no wrong and people are sick of it. I thought he ‘did wrong’ when he took his eyes of the ball and fumbled when hearing footsteps in the back pocket and gave away a free kick. I thought he did wrong when he gave up the chase as Humphrey showed him a clean pair of heels… he’s not perfect.

But no … black and white he was BOG. Except he wasn’t.

 

[Mr Meow]

A lot of waffle to miss answering my question.

Who are the '5 to 10 midfielders since 2023, who you can throw in with Daicos, with barely anything separating them?

I listed Bont, Serong, Butters, Neale, Heeney and Cripps above, and there is absolute separation between those players. You've suggested there are up to another three players, with barely anything separating them... I'd love to know who these other three players are.

Oh boy.

You're still not actually making any arguments or disputing any points.

Your list has between 5 to 10 midfielders by the way. I've already explained why deferring to your podium finish tally isn't the definitive evidence you claim. Stats, CD rankings, BnF wins and placements, finals performances, season accolades and overall ability/impact as footballers - not a whole lot separates them the past few years. The factors I've already explained can marginally shift how well any have performed in the above metrics.

You haven't been making a very good case for the 5+ forwards, defenders and ruckmen who have been at roughly the same level and influence as Cameron, Andrews and Gawn by the way. Or highlighted which seasons Daicos was clearly the best performer (H&A, finals or both combined). He hasn't even won a BnF in a team that qualified for finals yet.

 

[ShereKhan]

Yeah, maybe you want to go back through the archives and count how many times Daicos has been highly influential in a win. I'll give you a clue - the percentage of games in which he's been a matchwinner is significantly more than Butters, or Bont or Serong or Heeney or Rowell, and the number of games from the 95 he's played so far in which he's been a matchwinner is infinitely more than the same players had in their first 95 games.

He came into a team that had gone GF, PF, Finals, Missed 8. Then PF, Flag, Missed finals, PF.

So did their win/loss change a great deal in the 4-tears before he arrived compared to the 4-years after?

There have been plenty of influential players at the Pies. Nick is one of the best players in the comp - anyone who doesn’t think that is wrong.. Don’t sweat it if a lot of non-Pies don’t think he’s the best.

 

[Fadge]

No. Ash was. Just like Darcy Cameron was your B&F.

Correction. Ash was awarded the E. J. Whitten Medal by the Coaches.

Daicos was the best player on the ground.

This is why Naicos gets booed … because Pie fans think he can do no wrong and people are sick of it. I thought he ‘did wrong’ when he took his eyes of the ball and fumbled when hearing footsteps in the back pocket and gave away a free kick. I thought he did wrong when he gave up the chase as Humphrey showed him a clean pair of heels… he’s not perfect.

Naicos gets booed? He, together with many other Victorians, were booed last night.

The boo's for him were absolutely the loudest - but that's what happens when you're a tall poppy, and getting your hands on the ball than any other player on the ground.

But good on you for finding two instances of Daicos 'doing wrong'.

What did you think of the pass to Bont to set him up for a goal? You may have missed that. Or the other 28 effective disposals he had...

 

[Mr Meow]

Yeah, maybe you want to go back through the archives and count how many times Daicos has been highly influential in a win. I'll give you a clue - the percentage of games in which he's been a matchwinner is significantly more than Butters, or Bont or Serong or Heeney or Rowell, and the number of games from the 95 he's played so far in which he's been a matchwinner is infinitely more than the same players had in their first 95 games.

Again you are passing off a ridiculously over the top and unverified conclusion as a fact based off your "analysis" - by the way I'd love to see the in depth breakdown of the other players you've mentioned, for game by game influence.

This is where you completely lose any credibility and in fact just espout meaningless drivel. Doing this so regularly diminishes the regard basically anyone should give you for Daicos vs other elite players opinions. Yes, opinions. Not the "facts" you claim them to be.

 

[Fadge]

He came into a team that had gone GF, PF, Finals, Missed 8. Then PF, Flag, Missed finals, PF.

So did their win/loss change a great deal in the 4-tears before he arrived compared to the 4-years after?

There have been plenty of influential players at the Pies. Nick is one of the best players in the comp - anyone who doesn’t think that is wrong.. Don’t sweat it if a lot of non-Pies don’t think he’s the best.

Rewriting history here again I see.

Collingwood were apparently in all sorts in 2021, and destined for 5 or so years of Carlton like bottom 4 mediocrity.

Go back and look at the commentary at the time.

Enter N. Daicos.

 

[ShereKhan]

Make whatever arguments you want. It's when you make grandiose declarations and state that they are facts, where they can quite easily be challenged.

Defenders and forwards generally aren't going to be big vote stealers. Perhaps if they are at that Jeremy Cameron level, or your AA half backs (think Houston and Sinclair type players...but even many of these don't feature that heavily).

Collingwood have been a strong side, particularly in 2023. Exceptionally well coached, elite defensive group and underrated general forwards + utilities. A stack of veterans holding up very well. These players performing their role competently are not going to steal votes in the same way Black, Voss, Akermanis did. Or Judd, Cousins, Kerr. Or the best Geelong midfields. Or the 2010 era Collingwood midfield.

Now the Bulldogs, Port, Fremantle and Sydney teams of the past few years aren't at that level. However they have had prime movers in the midfield who are big vote stealers in various years. Bont has had Libba, Macrae, Treloar and then last year Richards. Butters has had Rozee and JHF. Serong has had Brayshaw. Heeney has had Warner and Gulden.

Who has Daicos had 2023-2025? Prime DeGoey one year. Then mid 30s Pendles/Sidebottom/Crisp (players this age never poll heavily) and periphery parts like Mitchell, Long etc.

So yeah, it is a factor when you're talking about podium finishes and all the rest- when the difference between 3rd and 8th etc is often negligible to begin with. It doesn't mean Collingwood have been a poor team carried by Daicos. It's just a good environment to stockpile votes.

2023 for the reasons you've stated was his best year, unfortunate injury aside. He may well have taken home 2 or 3 of the big 3 and the BnF. We'll never know. There is no season so far where he has clearly been the best player in the comp, and it remains unsupported if you state he has clearly been the best player in the comp over any period so far.

I’m sorry, but when you’ve not been in the best two on the ground in any of your seven finals, you cannot possibly be some sort of ‘undisputed’ best player in the game. It’s laughable.

 

[Fadge]

Again you are passing off a ridiculously over the top and unverified conclusion as a fact based off your "analysis" - by the way I'd love to see the in depth breakdown of the other players you've mentioned, for game by game influence.

This is where you completely lose any credibility and in fact just espout meaningless drivel. Doing this so regularly diminishes the regard basically anyone should give you for Daicos vs other elite players opinions. Yes, opinions. Not the "facts" you claim them to be.

I've discussed Daicos' matchwinning exploits in the past, in significant detail.

If you think I'm 'passing off a ridiculously over the top and unverified conclusion as a fact', prove me wrong and give me a current player who has been a 'matchwinner' in a greater percentage of games than Daicos (minimum 50 games), or a current player who had been a matchwinner more regularly in their first 95 games than Daicos has in his 95 games to date.

It should be easy if what I am saying is 'ridiculously over the top'.

Go.

 

[Fadge]

I’m sorry, but when you’ve not been in the best two on the ground in any of your seven finals, you cannot possibly be some sort of ‘undisputed’ best player in the game. It’s laughable.

So that excludes Bont over the last 3 years.

On that basis, who has been the best player in the game since the start of 2023?

I guess by process of elimination we arrive at Serong, Heeney or Neale?

Who have all been inferior performers to 1. Daicos and 2. Bont since the start of 2023.

 

[ShereKhan]

Rewriting history here again I see.

Collingwood were apparently in all sorts in 2021, and destined for 5 or so years of Carlton like bottom 4 mediocrity.

Go back and look at the commentary at the time.

Enter N. Daicos.

Who did the Pies lost from the 2018-2021 period that was going to result in a dire drop off in form… a quick glance shows your 2022 playing list had :

Grundy
Pendles
Adams
Moore
DeGoey
Sidey
Crisp
Maynard
Elliott
Howe
Mihocek
Quaynor
J Daicos
Caneron
Noble
Murphy
Ginnivan (40 goals in 2022)
Lipisnki (played 25 games and beat Nick in B&F)

Yeah, I can’t believe Daicos was able to drag this playing list with him to be competitive …. amazing

 

[Mr Meow]

I’m sorry, but when you’ve not been in the best two on the ground in any of your seven finals, you cannot possibly be some sort of ‘undisputed’ best player in the game. It’s laughable.

Agreed.

It was rightfully the same kind of criticism for Dangerfield until 2022. Yet he still had BOG finals in 2017, 2019 and 2020. He went very close in one final against Hawthorn as a Crow too. There were some big misses, but also hits.

For Daicos he has had some good finals but the closest to "dominant" was against Adelaide (3rd BOG) against the worst performing finals team this century, in a cruisy win. The others have ranged from mediocre to good. They weren't compensated by BnF victories or dominating the H&A season awards. So yes, great seasons but none where it is laughable to not automatically say he was THE best player.

 

[Mr Meow]

I've discussed Daicos' matchwinning exploits in the past, in significant detail.

If you think I'm 'passing off a ridiculously over the top and unverified conclusion as a fact', prove me wrong and give me a current player who has been a 'matchwinner' in a greater percentage of games than Daicos (minimum 50 games), or a current player who had been a matchwinner more regularly than Daicos has in his 95 games to date.

Go.

You were the one who made the claim. Show your evidence for not just Daicos but the other listed midfielders, then do the same for Andrews/Gawm/Cameron as the standout forwards. Who comes 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc?

You have no clue because you have not even assessed the other players in what would be a highly subjective and flawed "analysis" (typical of your posting history) to begin with.

In other words, talking complete shit and then getting high off your own farts that you have confused as "analysis".

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Who are the 5 or 10 midfielders you can throw Daicos in with, with barely anything separating their influence?

Bont is the closest, but he's played a single, disappointing finals game in that time.

Serong the next. With zero podium finishes in the big awards, and also minimal finals appearances.

Butters the next probably. But also underwhelming finals performances.

Neale? At least he has a finals CV to support the argument, but just the single AA.

Heeney? Who has had a single year amongst the top 10 performed players in the competition, when he made the leap from potential superstar to bona fide superstar as a 28 year old in 2024.

Any others to make up your 10? Do we need to include the single AA Cripps?

They're all shit compared to Daics, and he showed it last night, did whatever he wanted

 

[Fadge]

Who did the Pies lost from the 2018-2021 period that was going to result in a dire drop off in form… a quick glance shows your 2022 playing list had :

Grundy
Pendles
Adams
Moore
DeGoey
Sidey
Crisp
Maynard
Elliott
Howe
Mihocek
Quaynor
J Daicos
Caneron
Noble
Murphy
Ginnivan (40 goals in 2022)
Lipisnki (played 25 games and beat Nick in B&F)

Yeah, I can’t believe Daicos was able to drag this playing list with him to be competitive …. amazing

You've named a heap of players who were apparently either past it or spuds at the start of 2022.

Noble and Sidey my favourite nominations.

What had Ginnivan and Murphy done at the start of 2022?

At least you had some dignity and stopped short of naming Cox.

 

[Fadge]

You were the one who made the claim. Show your evidence for not just Daicos but the other listed midfielders, then do the same for Andrews/Gawm/Cameron as the standout forwards. Who comes 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc?

You have no clue because you have not even assessed the other players in what would be a highly subjective and flawed "analysis" (typical of your posting history) to begin with.

In other words, talking complete shit and then getting high off your own farts that you have confused as "analysis".

You're the one who is saying I'm wrong.

Come on, prove it.

Surely it's easy - you've got a portfolio of about 400 current players who have played over 50 games to choose from.

Go.

 

[Fadge]

They're all shit compared to Daics, and he showed it last night, did whatever he wanted

I was amazed he got so much midfield time last night, given the AA selectors couldn't find a spot for him on the ground in their 2025 team.

Interesting that when it comes to the crunch, he gets more midfield time than anyone.

Did Ed Richards even spend a minute in the midfield?

 

[Mr Meow]

You're the one who is saying I'm wrong.

Come on, prove it.

Surely it's easy - you've got a portfolio of about 400 current players who have played over 50 games to choose from.

Go.

Looks like yet again you have nothing when asked to actually defend your wildly over the top conclusions. You made the claim and seem to have...nothing supporting it. You can't even distinguish between any of the other players because you have not even started the analysis.

Try submitting something to a scientific journal without data or analysis, then screech "YOU HAVE TO PROVE ME WRONG" when the peer review report comes back and calls you a clown.

I seriously wonder what sort of job/employers hire some of these people. Perhaps you're great on the McDonald's fryer, but please tell me it isn't anything requiring basic analytical skills.

 

[doppleganger]

I’m sorry, but when you’ve not been in the best two on the ground in any of your seven finals

What are you using to determine best 2?

Multiple Norm Smith medal judges had Daicos in the best two on the ground in the 2023 GF.

Your PlayARaTinGs have him as best in a final.

And a big LOL that you run with top2...what voting system only stops at acknowledging top2??

The Cherry picker at it again!!

 

[Fadge]

Looks like yet again you have nothing when asked to actually defend your wildly over the top conclusions. You made the claim and seem to have...nothing supporting it. You can't even distinguish between any of the other players because you have not even started the analysis.

Try submitting something to a scientific journal without data or analysis, then screech "YOU HAVE TO PROVE ME WRONG" when the peer review report comes back and calls you a clown.

So, no nominations?

I expected as much.