List Mgmt. Trade & F/A - 2017/2018 - Refreshed (cont in part 2)

[DaVe86]

I understand Hine's rationale that we were unlikely to use next years 2nd round anyway, but I just don't buy it.

Surely at a minimum it is a strong bargaining chip at next years trade period. Picks are going to have a higher premium in a strong draft, and having a 2nd round pick could've helped if we are involved in a big name trade (ie Lynch). Otherwise, we could've downgraded it for multiple later picks to build points for academy or father son picks.

I'm just really surprised we did this deal. I'm happy to have Murray, and I think he'll go alright. It was just a high price to pay.

 

[DaVe86]

He is no longer a rookie listed player since the trade, he is now a senior listed player of the Collingwood Football Club.

The second convo (i was in) pertains to Sydney dealings and if we walked away from the trade, he was going to remain on their Rookie list as they obviously didn't highly rate him enough to promote. The played chicken and Hine diverted first.

Agreed. Obviously they knew we were keen on Murray and just played hardball. Which is a bit disappointing because surely if a club is willing to give a rookie a senior spot, you give the kid the opportunity. These are the sort of little deals where clubs can form good trading relationships. There must still be a bit of bad blood between Sydney and Collingwood.

Let's just hope that Murray is worth the cost. Clearly Sydney wanted to keep him as well, so he must be rated fairly high.

 

[Apex36]

Huh?
What are you on about!

Pretty simple. We’ve offered him a senior contract. Sydney offered him an extension to his rookie contract. If he stayed at Sydney he would stay a rookie. By being traded he goes on our senior list, as AFL rules state that you cannot trade a player on to your rookie list.

 

[loki04]

Was there any other way for us to bring Murray to the club? Eg: PSD.

Could we have just told him not to accept Sydney's contract, then we pick him up for free in the PSD.

After doing some reading it appears there wasn't well at least according to Hine. Apparently there is rule restrictions on rookies that prevent them going into the draft or psd.

I find it hard to believe that such restrictions are placed solely on them, hopefully someone can look up the trade rules around it to either confirm or shoot him down.

I to thought they could enter the ND or PSD shoul they refuse another rookie year, guess I was *less right*.

 

[Scodog10]

We got the worst rating by Buckenara, a D.

We did not improve our position in the draft and are left with one good pick and over paid for a rookie and gave up a good pick in a super draft.

Following on from Mayne last year and to a lesser extent Wells (he can play but can't get on the park enough), we have really lost the plot. I think the problem is we have no clear direction re what sort of list we are trying to build. Seems to have been very random, and it seems that over estimating where we are at (club seemed to think we were a top 4 team and recruited to that end) has cost us dearly.

One thing that Dunstall, who was a key in putting Hawthorn back together, always says is, 'you have to know where you are at'. We clearly did not and still don't.

That’s incorrect, IMO. It’s fine to be critical of how we went about it, but we identified that a half back dasher was needed and went out and got him which is a clear indication we know what the list is lacking. We just overpaid and the rest is hyperbole.

If we come out of the draft without at least 2 further KPP options that changes, but as it stands you’ve gone early!

 

[loki04]

Agreed. Obviously they knew we were keen on Murray and just played hardball. Which is a bit disappointing because surely if a club is willing to give a rookie a senior spot, you give the kid the opportunity. These are the sort of little deals where clubs can form good trading relationships. There must still be a bit of bad blood between Sydney and Collingwood.

Let's just hope that Murray is worth the cost. Clearly Sydney wanted to keep him as well, so he must be rated fairly high.

Need to factor in the Sydney hierarchy's animosity towards all things Collingwood, Eds attack on COLA, Academy's etc have caused a rift (which I am 100% behind Eddies stance). They aren't doing us any favours anytime soon.

 

[loki04]

Heard that. I found it pretty interesting that Carlton wasn't mentioned, i also found it interesting that Richmond was. Can Richmond afford to have players on their list costing them $1.2-1.5m a season? Plus whatever they paid to lure Prestia. And if so what effect does that have on the rest of their premiership list? Hawthorn is interesting, they could be a legitimate threat, but they seem to be going backwards. What could they offer that we couldn't? Might be my black and white glasses, but i feel we are well and truly in the box seat

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Richmond also signed Martin to a 1.2mil deal. On top of thi after winning a flag they should start to see list pressure by way of other teams poaching or at least attempting to poach their players which will create cap pressure.

Although personally I don't overtly rate half their 22 and think they just struck while the iron was hot.

 

[Old Spice]

Look, so long as Murray ends up being a better player than whatever we might have got with our 2018 second round then Hine will have been vindicated. I actually like the look of this guy, a lot. I reckon Sydney wanted to keep him in reserve and slot him in as a next gen Swans defender. Someone from Sydney pointed out that both Newman and Hewett trod the same path as Murray. If he ends up like Newman you'd be pretty happy at getting them for a second round. In addition to that, the rookie list operates differently there, sort of like an adjunct to their academy.

Plus there's no reason we can't trade back into the draft early next year as well. I could see us getting some second round picks from a Gold Coast who would probably still be looking for experienced players over picks. They'll probably have an Aladdin's Cave of early picks next year as it is.

 

[Old Spice]

Richmond also signed Martin to a 1.2mil deal. On top of thi after winning a flag they should start to see list pressure by way of other teams poaching or at least attempting to poach their players which will create cap pressure.

Although personally I don't overtly rate half their 22 and think they just struck while the iron was hot.

I don't rate their list either. They ran a game plan like our 2010 version which put a premium on pressure (our list was better than theirs though, hence our 2011 was great, bar the...I can't go on) and going one on one when they had the opposition pegged into a pocket after allowing an easy outlet kick. They'll be caught up with this year. I doubt they have much that clubs would see worth going after, but who knows.

But returning to the Lynch discussion, you can't have 2 x million dollar plus players on your list.

 

[loki04]

Look, so long as Murray ends up being a better player than whatever we might have got with our 2018 second round then Hine will have been vindicated. I actually like the look of this guy, a lot. I reckon Sydney wanted to keep him in reserve and slot him in as a next gen Swans defender. Someone from Sydney pointed out that both Newman and Hewett trod the same path as Murray. If he ends up like Newman you'd be pretty happy at getting them for a second round. In addition to that, the rookie list operates differently there, sort of like an adjunct to their academy.

Plus there's no reason we can't trade back into the draft early next year as well. I could see us getting some second round picks from a Gold Coast who would probably still be looking for experienced players over picks. They'll probably have an Aladdin's Cave of early picks next year as it is.

Sydney felt he was 18 - 24 months away from a senior spot. That's a bloody long time to sit on a rookie list.

I'm glad they identified what us mugs knew which is we lack line breaking HBF (with good skills unfortunately he appears hit and miss from game to game here), but that cost.

 

[Old Spice]

Sydney felt he was 18 - 24 months away from a senior spot. That's a bloody long time to sit on a rookie list.

I'm glad they identified what us mugs knew which is we lack line breaking HBF (with good skills unfortunately he appears hit and miss from game to game here), but that cost.

That's probably because their back 6/7 is pretty settled and hard to dislodge. They also like to operate like Hawthorn, i.e. try and give a lengthy apprenticeship in the VFL before promoting them to senior level where they're ready to hit the ground running.

 

[Old Spice]

Plus if we see value in Murray, I certainly do, then what do you do when a club is being recalcitrant? You probably pay more than you'd like to but you can't control that. I reckon he will easily justify a second round selection, even in the oft feted superdraft of the future.

 

[Scodog10]

Look, so long as Murray ends up being a better player than whatever we might have got with our 2018 second round then Hine will have been vindicated. I actually like the look of this guy, a lot. I reckon Sydney wanted to keep him in reserve and slot him in as a next gen Swans defender. Someone from Sydney pointed out that both Newman and Hewett trod the same path as Murray. If he ends up like Newman you'd be pretty happy at getting them for a second round. In addition to that, the rookie list operates differently there, sort of like an adjunct to their academy.

Plus there's no reason we can't trade back into the draft early next year as well. I could see us getting some second round picks from a Gold Coast who would probably still be looking for experienced players over picks. They'll probably have an Aladdin's Cave of early picks next year as it is.

Do you think he’s best 22 in 2018 and beyond? Like you I’m positive about him and I personally think he can come in to fill a role straight from the start.

Realistically when selecting in the 2nd round it’s a 50-50 proposition that you find a best 22 player and with what came back the trade value sits somewhere around a 3rd. If we see him as best 22 quality and he vindicates that I’ll cop that, but jeez as a few have said the pressure to perform could have been dialled down a touch...

 

[Old Spice]

Do you think he’s best 22 in 2018 and beyond? Like you I’m positive about him and I personally think he can come in to fill a role straight from the start.

Realistically when selecting in the 2nd round it’s a 50-50 proposition that you find a best 22 player and with what came back the trade value sits somewhere around a 3rd. If we see him as best 22 quality and he vindicates that I’ll cop that, but jeez as a few have said the pressure to perform could have been dialled down a touch...

I think he'll be the equal of Maynard and better than every other medium we have as an option down there. It would be worthwhile seeing how Maynard goes in the middle but I wouldn't be disappointed to see two quick running hard nuts like these two coming out of defence, that's for sure.

He'd displace Crisp, Scharenberg, Ramsay or Sinclair in pretty short order this year would be my guess. Maybe mid-season he's a fixture.

 

[jackcass]

He is currently a rookie, how much more do you think we will be paying him? Worth a 2nd round pick? Time will tell.
Salary cap may have prevented us from going for other players.

Maximum wage under the old EBA was about $250k if a 2nd year player on the senior list if they play nearly every senior game as it includes graduated match payments. Rookie salary would be well below that. I'd imagine that under the new EBA he would be on at least that $250k. Given the average salary is projected to get to $400k under this EBA he would still be a cheapy.

 

[Jafo]

Look, so long as Murray ends up being a better player than whatever we might have got with our 2018 second round then Hine will have been vindicated. I actually like the look of this guy, a lot. I reckon Sydney wanted to keep him in reserve and slot him in as a next gen Swans defender. Someone from Sydney pointed out that both Newman and Hewett trod the same path as Murray. If he ends up like Newman you'd be pretty happy at getting them for a second round. In addition to that, the rookie list operates differently there, sort of like an adjunct to their academy.

Plus there's no reason we can't trade back into the draft early next year as well. I could see us getting some second round picks from a Gold Coast who would probably still be looking for experienced players over picks. They'll probably have an Aladdin's Cave of early picks next year as it is.

 

[Old Spice]

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I know the chunky who ate this chunky

 

[Scodog10]

I think he'll be the equal of Maynard and better than every other medium we have as an option down there. It would be worthwhile seeing how Maynard goes in the middle but I wouldn't be disappointed to see two quick running hard nuts like these two coming out of defence, that's for sure.

He'd displace Crisp, Scharenberg, Ramsay or Sinclair in pretty short order this year would be my guess. Maybe mid-season he's a fixture.

Given all available evidence that appears to be the plan to release Maynard. With two years development in a better system than ours though I’m a bit more optimistic and think there’s a spot for Murray round 1 if he performs in the pre-season.

IMO, Greenwood’s best 22 days are done so Maynard takes his spot and we go in with a back 7 of Moore, Goldsack, Howe, Scharenberg, Langdon, Crisp and Murray. Whether he can maintain that throughout the season I’m not sure, but it was a reasonable acquisition, IMO. That price though...

 

[doppleganger]

Way to much outrage over the decision for mine.

You trade to fill weakness in your list, and with Sinc, Rama and Varcoe all battling different injury problems and not giving us what was hoped a speedy defender is what we lacked.

Murray identified a player we wanted, obviously our scouts liked what they saw, so we go and get him.

To get him we downgraded a 2nd round to a 3rd round, with our drafting we have a history of going for an "off-radar" player that isn't highly rated in the groupthink consensus that is the pre-draft rankings...so it may have zero impact in terms of who we would actually select anyway!!

 

[Old Spice]

Given all available evidence that appears to be the plan to release Maynard. With two years development in a better system than ours though I’m a bit more optimistic and think there’s a spot for Murray round 1 if he performs in the pre-season.

IMO, Greenwood’s best 22 days are done so Maynard takes his spot and we go in with a back 7 of Moore, Goldsack, Howe, Scharenberg, Langdon, Crisp and Murray. Whether he can maintain that throughout the season I’m not sure, but it was a reasonable acquisition, IMO. That price though...

Yes, I could easily see round 1. Hearing him speak too he's got the right stuff. I reckon mainstay by mid-season but that's me covering my arse. Looks to have the capacity right now to slot into our best 22.

The price? More than you want, but as I say above, if you rate him as best 22, I think you have to go for it even if you pay more than you want. Or to put it another way, is he worth a second round pick? Absolutely. Do you want him cheaper, like when you find an Eames chair in an opp shop but they gouge you? Sure, but also you want that piece of furniture so you huff and pay.

Regarding the back 6-7. I'll have a think.

 

[Old Spice]

I think peeps should start getting excited about his pace and line breaking. That's something that's really going to give us a fillip.

 

[CarnMags]

I'm just so frustrated with Hine's lack of foresight. I feel like we're constantly a year behind.

I know one of the objectives of the Murray trade was to gain draft points for this year's Next Gen Academy and F/S prospects, but again that has left us skinny for next year's draft.

 

[loki04]

That's probably because their back 6/7 is pretty settled and hard to dislodge. They also like to operate like Hawthorn, i.e. try and give a lengthy apprenticeship in the VFL before promoting them to senior level where they're ready to hit the ground running.

They have retired Mcveigh so an opening is there. On top of this he is 20 yo not like he is 18 eventually you have to bite the bullet, they have no qualms giving other 1st and 2nd year players a go.

 

[loki04]

I'm just so frustrated with Hine's lack of foresight. I feel like we're constantly a year behind.

I know one of the objectives of the Murray trade was to gain draft points for this year's Next Gen Academy and F/S prospects, but again that has left us skinny for next year's draft.

For next years which is why its a head scratcher move.

 

[CarnMags]

I think peeps should start getting excited about his pace and line breaking. That's something that's really going to give us a fillip.

Breaking lines is about opening up the field and disorganising the opposition defence - I don't see that from his highlights at all.

I see a speedy HB that definitely wants to take the game on - but often runs into congested areas and straight into opposition players.