Analysis Danger on Tim Kelly + his 2020 contract

[CatToTheFuture]

Jessie Hogan .. suspended for W1 for mental health grog drinking issues ... good or bad ? Probably good but doesn't help them w1

Not good when you're trying to pitch Freo as a professional group on the rise and round 1 their star recruit that they traded gun picks for is missing because he was too hung over to train.

Get it together Ross you're letting the cats down!

 

[Turbocat]

Not good when you're trying to pitch Freo as a professional group on the rise and round 1 their star recruit that they traded gun picks for is missing because he was too hung over to train.

Get it together Ross you're letting the cats down!

Yes no... its could be spun to show that they are not willing to accommodate poor performance. Time will tell I guess

 

[Ray Donovan]

Like I said a player shouldn't be able to choose a club after 2 years of been drafted.... What's the point of a club picking a player who invest in that player then after 2 years they say they want to go home... When a player like Ablett and Dangerfield gave there previous clubs a good solid service, when a player like Kelly, Setterfield Caddy want to leave a club after 2 years... Talking to a ex captain of Bulldogs who I'm great mates with said it drives him nuts hearing players want to go to a new club after 1 or 2 years of service..
If Duncan said he wanted to go back to WA now I don't have any problems at all as his given Cats 10 years of service ( which I'd want him to stay )

No the players should be able to move where ever they well choose after they have fulfilled current contract. It's fully upto the club to create the environment that wants a player to stay.

If they don't like it at the current situation or feel they have greener pastures to go to by all means leave.

The only thing I would be doing for clubs is change contracts to say players can be traded anywhere without consent of the player. So if you can't secure a signature on a long term basis you can go out and get the best return possible

 

[Ray Donovan]

I would straight swap Venebales for Kelly and be happy with the trade.

You would take some heat in the beginning although I think venables over a career will be a better prospect.

That's my gut feel and I believe after this season it will be pretty close in terms of the mature player you have in Kelly compared to the future potential of venables

 

[Cataholic]

No the players should be able to move where ever they well choose after they have fulfilled current contract. It's fully upto the club to create the environment that wants a player to stay.

If they don't like it at the current situation or feel they have greener pastures to go to by all means leave.

The only thing I would be doing for clubs is change contracts to say players can be traded anywhere without consent of the player. So if you can't secure a signature on a long term basis you can go out and get the best return possible

Except that, in such a situation, a club has invested 'intellectual property' in a player when no-one else has had the faith.....

To run for the door at the first opportunity was poor.......

If they want the freedom to sell themselves at any opportunity then the clubs should have the same privilege.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Yes no... its could be spun to show that they are not willing to accommodate poor performance. Time will tell I guess

Maybe but if you're trying to sell a story about freo not accommodating poor performance then you might need to get all forms of media to delete the footage of our match with them last year as a starting point

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I would straight swap Venebales for Kelly and be happy with the trade.

You would take some heat in the beginning although I think venables over a career will be a better prospect.

That's my gut feel and I believe after this season it will be pretty close in terms of the mature player you have in Kelly compared to the future potential of venables

Not sure i have your faith in Venables. Plus we'll do better than that. The likely scenario for us with WCE I think will be Bailey Williams and a second rounder, but probably a 1st. The likely scenario with Freo is they put their first down and get a second back.

 

[ReebusMaximus]

Jessie Hogan .. suspended for W1 for mental health grog drinking issues ... good or bad ? Probably good but doesn't help them w1

IMO, these sort of cultural issues are why Tim Kelly baulked at a trade to Freo. As a young dad with responsibilities, why would you want to put yourself in a position where you could get caught up in it all?

 

[Turbocat]

IMO, these sort of cultural issues are why Tim Kelly baulked at a trade to Freo. As a young dad with responsibilities, why would you want to put yourself in a position where you could get caught up in it all?

He was not even a Freo player last year .. I doubt Hogans health was a determining factor

 

[Turbocat]

The cultural issues have been there pre Hogan’s arrival clearly. Even so, they haven’t done well with new recruits, have they? McCarthy, Bennell, Hogan..

I dont think it was cultural issues that was the key blocker , reports recenly say depending on Freos performance this year they may be back in consideration.

 

[ReebusMaximus]

I dont think it was cultural issues that was the key blocker , reports recenly say depending on Freos performance this year they may be back in consideration.

If accurate, that’d be the best result for us.

We may never know, but I’ve just always had a gut feeling that it’s been more than on-field performance that has played into Tim’s thinking.

 

[Ray Donovan]

IMO, these sort of cultural issues are why Tim Kelly baulked at a trade to Freo. As a young dad with responsibilities, why would you want to put yourself in a position where you could get caught up in it all?

This has nothing to do with freo, these were serious problems he was having at Melbourne previously. Lots of attention has been on his off-field in Melbourne. The family issues I assume just compounded everything.

But 100% this had nothing to do with fremantle culture wise. The same with Harley bennell came across with massive off field issues mental health problems.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Except that, in such a situation, a club has invested 'intellectual property' in a player when no-one else has had the faith.....

To run for the door at the first opportunity was poor.......

If they want the freedom to sell themselves at any opportunity then the clubs should have the same privilege.

Intellectual property?

Did you not read what I wrote ?

 

[Turbocat]

I would straight swap Venebales for Kelly and be happy with the trade.

You would take some heat in the beginning although I think venables over a career will be a better prospect.

That's my gut feel and I believe after this season it will be pretty close in terms of the mature player you have in Kelly compared to the future potential of venables

I think a straight swap is unlikely to get done ... its a complicated mix of what both cost at draft , age , potential V now. On dollars ..Id say Kelly would be worth more so it would require something to be added to the deal to blur the lines..maybe a player to be added , maybe picks , maybe a third party....

 

[Pure_Ownage]

People want to straight swap Kelly for 8 possessions Venables? Is this real life?

 

[foxdog50]

No the players should be able to move where ever they well choose after they have fulfilled current contract. It's fully upto the club to create the environment that wants a player to stay.

If they don't like it at the current situation or feel they have greener pastures to go to by all means leave.

The only thing I would be doing for clubs is change contracts to say players can be traded anywhere without consent of the player. So if you can't secure a signature on a long term basis you can go out and get the best return possible

Disagree

 

[Cataholic]

Intellectual property?

Did you not read what I wrote ?

Yes.

 

[Turbocat]

People want to straight swap Kelly for 8 possessions Venables? Is this real life?

Its the same sort of logic that Kelly was P24 and Venebles was 13..
I doubt there is going to be an outcome we all enjoy.. and some are exploring options.
To me he would fit in where I want us to go .. a young quality young player.. certainly not like for like... and I dont think its a straight swap.. something would also have to added to the deal ..and to be honest I doubt thats the deal... Its more likely to be someone other than an R1 pick

 

[Turbocat]

Disagree

Fox ... I think you believe they should not be able to move for 4 years ?
Do you think that players should be tied to a club no matter if they are up to it or not. And the contract for y3 and y4 ..do you think that should worked out. What level of compensation should Y3 and Y4 players get?

 

[Ray Donovan]

Yes.

Because trademarking players or copywriting a player is reasonable got it long live geelong

 

[Ray Donovan]

Fox ... I think you believe they should not be able to move for 4 years ?
Do you think that players should be tied to a club no matter if they are up to it or not. And the contract for y3 and y4 ..do you think that should worked out. What level of compensation should Y3 and Y4 players get?

Yeah this scenario with the 4 years only works when we think it should work ( aka ) Tim Kelly. It becomes intellectual property and we have a copyright or a silent investment from a draft the player has no say in.

We ignore the fact the it's the players career who may want to move home, not like the particular club, not like the players, move for opportunity. List goes on and on. MONEY!!!! When you get offered 500-650k to relocate home this is employment. You think Tim Kelly owes geelong something he really owes the club nothing. He has come in and done exactly what he was supposed to play excellent football.

If we are locking draftees into a 3 or 4 year deal that goes for 2nd, 3rd, 4th round draftees as well.

So what is the option geelong because of patent gets to choose if it activates the 3rd or 4th year and the player has no say. Have fun getting that through the AFLPA.

 

[Landgraft]

Yeah this scenario with the 4 years only works when we think it should work ( aka ) Tim Kelly. It becomes intellectual property and we have a copyright or a silent investment from a draft the player has no say in.

We ignore the fact the it's the players career who may want to move home, not like the particular club, not like the players, move for opportunity. List goes on and on. MONEY!!!! When you get offered 500-650k to relocate home this is employment. You think Tim Kelly owes geelong something he really owes the club nothing. He has come in and done exactly what he was supposed to play excellent football.

If we are locking draftees into a 3 or 4 year deal that goes for 2nd, 3rd, 4th round draftees as well.

So what is the option geelong because of patent gets to choose if it activates the 3rd or 4th year and the player has no say. Have fun getting that through the AFLPA.

Everyone will ask for too much... clubs would want exclusive rights to players for those four years, but not to be committed to all draftees for that length of time - and they'd want to be able to trade them without agreement.

Players practically want to be free agents as soon as they enter the season, getting to determine a club of choice at any stage where that becomes convenient.

Not sure we've seen a reasonable compromise put forward as of yet. Clubs do seem to be getting better at just extending the contracts of recently drafted players to work around some of the uncertainty.

 

[Cataholic]

Because trademarking players or copywriting a player is reasonable got it long live geelong

Didn't suggest that.

I was trying to explain (my perspective) that the club invests in the player when it imparts its knowledge re: training, science, fitness and strategies.

 

[Ray Donovan]

I think a straight swap is unlikely to get done ... its a complicated mix of what both cost at draft , age , potential V now. On dollars ..Id say Kelly would be worth more so it would require something to be added to the deal to blur the lines..maybe a player to be added , maybe picks , maybe a third party....

I'm saying I would after this season. Your not going to get much for Tim Kelly after this all shakes out. You won't even get offered venables.

The reason he was held at geelong was he probably cost under 200k last season and 2019 will be under 250k. Around 100k under league average for a guy who probably is in your best 10 players by years end. That's why geelong was ramping up asking price because they assume 20-22 kind of deal will be on the table at the end of the year.

Why compromise the list for what we can get next year.

End of the year that all ends you have to deal fremantle is just a smokescreen because now they need to play ball and money is on the line for tim Kelly. Bargaining power getting a big contract if you have one offer from one club thats it you negotiate. He has an offer from fremantle now you have bargaining power.

It's like the most basic move for a manager with a history of questionable decisions.

Include the team that will almost certainly end up higher in the pre-season draft. So now he is an un-contracted player with options on the backend motivates west coast to make a deal and geelong. You get something instead of nothing to both clubs west coast and geelong.

He could still refuse to play for freo if that all shook out but it would be an absolute nightmare for him. Surely people advice against that.

Nothing but more of the same rubbish I saw all late last season.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Didn't suggest that.

I was trying to explain (my perspective) that the club invests in the player when it imparts its knowledge re: training, science, fitness and strategies.

So which part of intellectual property are we dealing with then ?

Is Tim Kelly intellectual property to Geelong because we drafted him trained him now we want to own the results for longer 3-4 years. Or because this scenario suits geelong with Tim Kelly.

That's what a draft is the players have no choice of destination. They are the rules when you enter the draft you sign and fulfil that contract. Do you think a lot of those draftees wanted to get shipped of to gws or goldcoast. Imagine if gws worked under intellectual property.

Then after that players like any normal person in a business model gets to decide what they do with future employment. Don't forget this is a job a livelihood a career. Player welfare is very important in the modern game it's a new age.

Where you start your working career at the very beginning for around 90% of people isn't exactly where you want to end it. It's just the first step in a short career path in your life.

Players should be able to choose it not everything is going to work like joel Corey, harry Taylor, mitch Duncan & so on every now and then they backfire that's the risk you take bringing guys over with a young family who was widely tipped to go to west coast in the next few picks.