Training 2017/2018 Pre-season Thread

[jaytex]

well good for you.

Thanks

 

[Markthirtytwo2]

I, for one, thank them for saying the thing that we're all thinking, every day, every time we see yet another self-indulgent googlified glory hole comment masquerading as insightful input.

That has a double meaning in certain parts of the world. Not the best expression I would have thought.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Now this is how the team has to warm up ......

 

[WaynesWorld19]

That has a double meaning in certain parts of the world. Not the best expression I would have thought.

isn't that just a "Lucky Dip" ?

 

[GameofSloanes]

M Crouch & Jacobs were genuinely influential in the GF. None of the rest of our players were, regardless of how highly they're paid.

Personally thought Jacobs was ordinary in the GF. Kept hitting it to his feet where the richmond players would swarm and get the ball. Didn't change what he was doing even though it wasn't working. Admittedly I havent watched the game on replay to confirm whether this impression is correct.

 

[Scorpus]

None of our players over $500K had an influence in the grand final, but throw the vitriol at 1...

When has Jenkins ever performed in a final? Not just last year, not just the grand final.

His record is:
2017 GF - 0 goals
2017 PF - 1 non-junk time goal
2017 QF - 1 goal
2016 SF - 0 goals
2016 EF - 2 goals
2015 SF - 4 goals, 3 of which after we were 50 points down
2015 EF - 0 goals

That's three finals with 0 goals, 2 goals in game we demolished North, 1 against GWS, 1 meaningful goal against Geelong, and 3 of four goals after we already lost to Hawthorn.

A bloke that averages 2 goals a game overall, and is known to kick a bag when his opponent favors him, manages just 11 goals in 7 finals, and three games with not even one goal. You don't pay $500k for that sort of output.

Taylor Walker had a poor 2017, but performed in earlier finals very well. He's not even in the same league, and neither are most of our other $500k players who have shown they can stand up.

 

[Geoffa32]

I've said this in about half a dozen other threads, and I don't mind sharing this useful insight again..
JJ's usefulness is his speed, not his power. He can outrun most of the big-bodied defenders, which creates a useful mismatch in our forward line. From this mismatch, it can create direct goals by him, or it can create goal assists.
He is not, and I repeat again, NOT a player to take big pack marks or cause friction rub to the back of the defenders.

Correct analysis on his player type.

The issue I have is that when team make it so that he has to play a role outside if his preferred option he is ineffective and can't adapt.

Let's face it, JJ is a flat track bully.

Not in the sense that be can only perform against bottom sides, but in that when a team does not allow him space to operate and use that pace he struggles.

Hence his poor Finals record.



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[Markthirtytwo2]

isn't that just a "Lucky Dip" ?

No that would make it unglorified.

 

[Scorpus]

Not in the sense that be can only perform against bottom sides, but in that when a team does not allow him space to operate and use that pace he struggles.

And that's why he will never be good. He requires a favorable match up to win his position, rather than creating a win through ability or effort

 

[Geoffa32]

And that's why he will never be good. He requires a favorable match up to win his position, rather than creating a win through ability or effort

He is almost a "horses for courses" selection IMO.

Although I really want to see Dear and Himmelberg push for selection this year.

Both guys look like they have the ability to play contested as well as run.

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[MRB37]

Personally thought Jacobs was ordinary in the GF. Kept hitting it to his feet where the richmond players would swarm and get the ball. Didn't change what he was doing even though it wasn't working. Admittedly I havent watched the game on replay to confirm whether this impression is correct.

The fact he was uncontested at a lot of ruck contests and was still playing it down where Richmond then had an extra midfielder was diabolical. Needed to set up better there and smash it away from the extra numbers.

 

[John Who]

Correct analysis on his player type.

The issue I have is that when team make it so that he has to play a role outside if his preferred option he is ineffective and can't adapt.

Let's face it, JJ is a flat track bully.

Not in the sense that be can only perform against bottom sides, but in that when a team does not allow him space to operate and use that pace he struggles.

Hence his poor Finals record.



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It's a debate where there will always be a debate. Is his poor Finals performance due to our opponents ability to choke us and giving no space for JJ to run around? Or his poor Finals performance is more due to our mids inability to win the footy and/or using it ineffectively to kick it in the space where JJ can utilize his speed and agility?

 

[Geoffa32]

It's a debate where there will always be a debate. Is his poor Finals performance due to our opponents ability to choke us and giving no space for JJ to run around? Or his poor Finals performance is more due to our mids inability to win the footy and/or using it ineffectively to kick it in the space where JJ can utilize his speed and agility?

In either scenario JJ is incapable of taking contested marks and crashing packs. Something a guy his size should be capable of. Ben Brown combines both physical and athletic attributes well.

I wonder had Walsh been able to continue as coach would JJ be in the team. Or would JJ have developed tbis side of his game more. I recall Walsh having a "man conversation" about this

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[John Who]

In either scenario JJ is incapable of taking contested marks and crashing packs. Something a guy his size should be capable of. Ben Brown combines both physical and athletic attributes well.

I wonder had Walsh been able to continue as coach would JJ be in the team. Or would JJ have developed tbis side of his game more. I recall Walsh having a "man conversation" about this

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I really don't want to look like a one-eyed JJ defender. I'm just saying that JJ's poor performances is a reflection of his output as well as the team failing to utilise JJ effectively.
Ben Brown had an impressive year with his 63 goals. But funnily enough, his average player's rating score was 73 last year, and JJ scored 78 average. So it tells us, that JJ must have been doing more right than wrong to be able to beat another player of similar position who scored 63 goals!

 

[deeztreez]

I honestly don't think it was so much our game plan that failed I think there were just too many of our players that didn't bring their A game and the right mindset on the day.

Completely agree. Seeing the boys in the GF week buildup...flag was just a formality. I suffered same thoughts. Walking to MCG GF morning and I wasn’t nervous at all. Just expected the flag was already ours

 

[Geoffa32]

I really don't want to look like a one-eyed JJ defender. I'm just saying that JJ's poor performances is a reflection of his output as well as the team failing to utilise JJ effectively.
Ben Brown had an impressive year with his 63 goals. But funnily enough, his average player's rating score was 73 last year, and JJ scored 78 average. So it tells us, that JJ must have been doing more right than wrong to be able to beat another player of similar position who scored 63 goals!

JJ only struggles against a handful of teams.

Unfortunately those teams play Finals. And Richmond brought that style of play to the GF.

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[FAITH]

JJ needs to man up and realise he's a 200cm 100kg tank who shouldn't act like a pussy on the ground.

Til he does he will be useless to our chances of winning a premiership.

 

[baldandbroke]

I've said this in about half a dozen other threads, and I don't mind sharing this useful insight again..
JJ's usefulness is his speed, not his power. He can outrun most of the big-bodied defenders, which creates a useful mismatch in our forward line. From this mismatch, it can create direct goals by him, or it can create goal assists.
He is not, and I repeat again, NOT a player to take big pack marks or cause friction rub to the back of the defenders.

Well John ... again that is my point. If he is not a big bodied pack crashing contested mark (which we ALL agree he is not) then why is he in the team again?

If his usefulness is speed - then we have faster players in the squad ... that have other good attributes.
If you are claiming that it's his speed for his size - that would explain why he is so easily shut down in big games. It's just a simple plan.

As a defensive unit - which team targeted JJ in their plans do you think? Does anyone here suggest that JJ would provide any sort of problem to the opposition that almost ANY other forward could also provide?

That's why everyone says "if only he was physical". Because then it would make sense to choose Jenkins over other players ... but as we have all seen, as we all know (not just JohnWho and Vader) that is not ever going to happen with Jenkins. He is an outside, non-contested mark, average back-up ruck, with very little football nous ... who loves to get on the end of chains to kick goals.

I would happily get Jenkins out of our 22 and replace him with ANY player that provides a contest and pressure. Harry Dear loves the contest it's in his DNA, he also has an entire lifetime of football learning behind him. Fogarty is an outside chance, just because of his attitude to the contested side.

What would we lose? What would we gain?

 

[jaytex]

That has a double meaning in certain parts of the world. Not the best expression I would have thought.

Thanks for your concern but I'm entirely comfortable with the message.

 

[Bicks]

Well John ... again that is my point. If he is not a big bodied pack crashing contested mark (which we ALL agree he is not) then why is he in the team again?

If his usefulness is speed - then we have faster players in the squad ... that have other good attributes.
If you are claiming that it's his speed for his size - that would explain why he is so easily shut down in big games. It's just a simple plan.

As a defensive unit - which team targeted JJ in their plans do you think? Does anyone here suggest that JJ would provide any sort of problem to the opposition that almost ANY other forward could also provide?

That's why everyone says "if only he was physical". Because then it would make sense to choose Jenkins over other players ... but as we have all seen, as we all know (not just JohnWho and Vader) that is not ever going to happen with Jenkins. He is an outside, non-contested mark, average back-up ruck, with very little football nous ... who loves to get on the end of chains to kick goals.

I would happily get Jenkins out of our 22 and replace him with ANY player that provides a contest and pressure. Harry Dear loves the contest it's in his DNA, he also has an entire lifetime of football learning behind him. Fogarty is an outside chance, just because of his attitude to the contested side.

What would we lose? What would we gain?

You're not serious re Harry Dear surely, he's struggled mostly even at SANFL level, Himmelberg is by far and away a better prospect than Dear for the role even on the limited exposure he's had to now IMO.

 

[jo172]

You're not serious re Harry Dear surely, he's struggled mostly even at SANFL level, Himmelberg is by far and away a better prospect than Dear for the role even on the limited exposure he's had to now IMO.

What? He kicked 37 goals in his first season playing as a key forward? Then he played a year as a Key Defender.

What Harry Dear are you talking about?

 

[baldandbroke]

You're not serious re Harry Dear surely, he's struggled mostly even at SANFL level, Himmelberg is by far and away a better prospect than Dear for the role even on the limited exposure he's had to now IMO.

Yeah ... I keep holding out for Dear but it's mainly just hope that what I have seen of him is the tip of the iceberg. Sometimes these guys take some time to work it out - and Harry is definitely at the end of his tether.

I agree that Himmelberg looks great, and could leap frog him if he hasn't already.

Fogarty might just do both of them.

 

[jo172]

<3

 

[jo172]

Not saying he's a certainty, but Dear when played in position has undeniable potential.

 

[baldandbroke]

Not saying he's a certainty, but Dear when played in position has undeniable potential.

The problem most people see is the dates on those two videos ...

Published on 3 Jul 2016
Published on 1 Nov 2016

I see something there too, but how long can we wait for the flower to blossom - before we give his space in the greenhouse to someone else?