Play Nice 2018 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread

Rob

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In fairness, at least the Western Bulldogs is, and has always been, located in what we would view as being Melbourne (the original Footscray City Council actually bordered Melbourne City Council).

But a team to be located outside of present Tarneit, and playing games in Geelong for first two or three seasons??
Until I see some actual construction happening I struggle to believe that someone's kicking in tens of millions to build a stadium. So as it stands at the moment they're playing games not in Melbourne.
 

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That they must to have Melbourne in their name? Surely being based in Melbourne is enough.
It’s a technicality that Fox are only bringing up because they are pissed off at their own mistake.
I think with the FAA ratings in the basement this season. Fox dont want pay anymore to the FAA if they can avoid it!
 
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Until I see some actual construction happening I struggle to believe that someone's kicking in tens of millions to build a stadium. So as it stands at the moment they're playing games not in Melbourne.
They are property developers and the overall land they are being given by the Wyndham council must be worth at least the cost of building the stadium.

I strongly suspect that they will quickly ditch the team after meeting their contractual requirements with the council to build the stadium (at the cheapest possible cost) and it will end up being demolished for apartments or commercial premises.
 

Gigantor

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the only way it makes any commercial sense is that there's an obligation to build a stadium (to be able to develop the remainder of the land), but there is no time limit on how long the stadium needs to be there, meaning at some future point, there's a large parcel of land to re-develop.

Even then, as a real estate proposition, it's all pretty marginal.

And let's be honest, this isn't prime real estate we're talking about.
 

Rob

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They are property developers and the overall land they are being given by the Wyndham council must be worth at least the cost of building the stadium.

I strongly suspect that they will quickly ditch the team after meeting their contractual requirements with the council to build the stadium (at the cheapest possible cost) and it will end up being demolished for apartments or commercial premises.
They still have to fork out a massive amount of money to build the stadium though - at least based on the proposed stadium i've seen. And you can't just demolish it to build apartments given it's not going to be zoned residential.
They might put something there - perhaps a small ground with 1 grandstand. They'll probably just call it stage 1. But I think it's unlikely stage 2 will ever get built.
 

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the only way it makes any commercial sense is that there's an obligation to build a stadium (to be able to develop the remainder of the land), but there is no time limit on how long the stadium needs to be there, meaning at some future point, there's a large parcel of land to re-develop.

Even then, as a real estate proposition, it's all pretty marginal.

And let's be honest, this isn't prime real estate we're talking about.
Tarneit,Truganina and Manor Lakes the urban slums of the future.

The Wyndham Council should be concentrating on fixing the shocking road infrastructure not putting more money into greedy developers pockets!
 

Gigantor

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Tarneit,Truganina and Manor Lakes the urban slums of the future.

The Wyndham Council should be concentrating on fixing the shocking road infrastructure not putting more money into greedy developers pockets!
Whichever way you look at it, none of it adds up, and at some point, some authority might have to have a very close look at what Wyndham Council concocted here.
 
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Here are the FFA's own 2018 Registered Participant nos., including all separate state nos.

https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2019-02/FFA 2018 National Participation Report.pdf

The total participant no. is 1,851,683 (cf AF total of 1,649,178).
Included in the 1,851, 683, the FFA counts:-

a. 550,495 in "Community Events and Promotional Experiences".

b. 93,401 in "Social Participants".

a. & b. do not include players in club & school competitions /programs., nor Miniroos (4-11 yo small-sided games), nor junior or adult indoor futsal.

Can anyone provide details on how the FFA counts & defines a. & b.?

It is irksome that many soccer officials, soccer journalists, & MSM general sports' journalists claim, paraphrasing "Football/soccer has more players than the other 3 football codes combined". It is very unfortunate that the lazy, incompetent MSM do not challenge this falsehood- but simply regurgitate it.
 
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"It is irksome that many soccer offiicals, soccer journalists, & MSM general sports' journalists claim, paraphrasing "Football/soccer has more players then the other 3 football codes combined". It is very unfortunate that the lazy, incompetent MSM do not challenge this falsehood- but simply regurgitate it."

The interesting thing about those massive figures if true is that they dont translate into soccer supporters down the track as shown by the stagnating crowds the A League are getting this season.
The difference with the AFL is that tens of thousands of kids many of whom have only done Auskick are taken to matches every week of the season and many of these kids when they grow up become adult supporters and go to matches.
This dosent seem to happen at the soccer as very few of the parents actually attend matches with their kids even though a 1 million + are exposed to the game at a young age.
 

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Here are the FFA's own 2018 Registered Participant nos., including all separate state nos.

https://www.ffa.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2019-02/FFA 2018 National Participation Report.pdf

The total participant no. is 1,851,683 (cf AF total of 1,649,178).
Included in the 1,85, 683, the FFA counts

a. 550,495 in "Community Events and Promotional Experiences".

b. 93,401 in "Social Participants".

a. & b. do not include players in club & school competitions /programs., nor futsal.

Can anyone provide details on how the FFA defines a. & b.?

It is irksome that many soccer offiicals, soccer journalists, & MSM general sports' journalists claim, paraphrasing "Football/soccer has more players then the other 3 football codes combined". It is very unfortunate that the lazy, incompetent MSM do not challenge this falsehood- but simply regurgitate it.
I suspect a. is primarily targeted at beefing up the overall numbers. I can't see an equivalent in the AFL numbers (though the AFL registers are far higher number in "school based programs" than the FFA)

In terms of b) the AFL's social participation is basically the AFL 9s. Perhaps the FFA's measures summer small sided competitions. I'm sure it doesn't capture informal participation

In terms of outdoor club and competition participation, what's interesting is that Australian football is ahead by about 100K based on their own numbers

1551067703763.png
 

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Interesting report in the Fairfax papers today re the A League and Fox Sports

Owners must urgently address A-League's TV slump: Wanderers chair
By Vince Rugari
February 25, 2019 — 7.00pm

Western Sydney Wanderers chairman Paul Lederer admits club owners face an "urgent" task in halting an alarming decline in television ratings and bringing excitement back to the A-League as they seek to take control of the ailing competition.
Crowds have held steady across the board this season, but ratings figures on Fox Sports continue to nosedive and the pay TV operator's appetite for domestic football appears to be waning.

Fox's attempt to withhold a $5 million increase to the A-League's broadcast deal by arguing incoming expansion team Western United are not based in Melbourne – as well as their opposition to a longer 30-round season – suggest the competition is skating on thin ice.
There have also been fears that Fox could use the A-League's pending split from Football Federation Australia as a trigger to renegotiate – or, in what would be a doomsday scenario for the sport, tear up – the $58 million-per-year agreement which effectively covers the salary cap and expires in 2023.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Interesting report in the Fairfax papers today re the A League and Fox Sports

Owners must urgently address A-League's TV slump: Wanderers chair
By Vince Rugari
February 25, 2019 — 7.00pm

Western Sydney Wanderers chairman Paul Lederer admits club owners face an "urgent" task in halting an alarming decline in television ratings and bringing excitement back to the A-League as they seek to take control of the ailing competition.
Crowds have held steady across the board this season, but ratings figures on Fox Sports continue to nosedive and the pay TV operator's appetite for domestic football appears to be waning.

Fox's attempt to withhold a $5 million increase to the A-League's broadcast deal by arguing incoming expansion team Western United are not based in Melbourne – as well as their opposition to a longer 30-round season – suggest the competition is skating on thin ice.
There have also been fears that Fox could use the A-League's pending split from Football Federation Australia as a trigger to renegotiate – or, in what would be a doomsday scenario for the sport, tear up – the $58 million-per-year agreement which effectively covers the salary cap and expires in 2023.
It really is a dire situation they find themselves in. Fox could be the sole realistic bidder for their next rights if the current trend continues or even if they don’t get some good growth before the deal is up. It’s not just the TV rights either though, it’s also sponsorship. They actually do an amazing job to find quality sponsors with the size of their audience but you would imagine they couldn’t be happy with the current situation.
They really have to get their shit together and make sure these new sides are a success otherwise there could be a massive snowball effect.
 
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FFV CEO P. Filopoulos sets out the model FFA template on how it will publicly lobby govts. & councils etc for more GR soccer facility funding -"...and, potentially, boutique stadia".

The FFV claims it successfully obtained $118,000,000 public funding in 2018 for GR soccer. "Govt. sources" say some of this funding "...has taken money off the table for the AFL". They also claim Vic. GR soccer "participant" nos. had a phenomenal "24% growth year on year from 2017".

The FFV has added a new & additional falsehood to soccer officials' litany of other falsehoods, re their participant nos. P. Filopoulos said "We are the only growing sport...". On previous history, it is unlikely the lazy & incompetent MSM will call the FFA/FFV etc to account for these falsehoods.

I hope & expect Govts. & Councils etc. are better informed of the actual participation facts.
Also, soccer has a broader range of programs, & has a multiplicity of year-round formats (eg winter & summer soccer comps. & training programs, futsal- for both clubs and schools); & is is FAR less physically demanding- so is likely to have many more participants counted twice or thrice (cf AF, RL, & RU).

https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/ffvs-118-million-strategy-to-supercharge-football-519580
 
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NoobPie

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FFV CEO P. Filopoulos sets out the model FFA template on how it will publicly lobby govts. & councils etc for more GR soccer facility funding -"...and, potentially, boutique stadia".

The FFV claims it successfully obtained $118,000,000 public funding in 2018 for GR soccer. "Govt. sources" say some of this funding "...has taken money off the table for the AFL". They also claim Vic. GR soccer "participant" nos. had a phenomenal "24% growth year on year from 2017".

The FFV has added a new & additional falsehood to soccer officials' litany of other falsehoods, re their participant nos. P. Filopoulos said "We are the only growing sport...". On previous history, it is unlikely the lazy & incompetent MSM will call the FFA/FFV etc to account for these falsehoods.

I hope & expect Govts. & Councils etc. are better informed of the actual participation facts.
Also, soccer has a broader range of programs, & has a multiplicity of year-round formats (eg futsal, summer soccer comps. & training programs); & is is FAR less physically demanding- so is likely to have many more participants counted twice or thrice (cf AF, RL, & RU).

https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/ffvs-118-million-strategy-to-supercharge-football-519580

Who would have thunk it? It wasn't just a great big conspiracy against soccer after all, you just need to demonstrate community value when you are bidding for tax payer funding!
 
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1. Tasmanian soccer official, M. Bulkeley (CEO FT) said a few days ago, re Tasmania
" We have also set a target to grow participation to...a total of 26,000 players, volunteers, coaches and referees...".

This suggests the FFA includes "volunteers, coaches and referees" in its national total of 1,851,683 (2018) "participants".
Does anyone know/confirm (or have other information etc.) if this is soccer's definition of official, registered "participants".

The AFL does not include GR AF volunteers in its total (2018) of 1,649,178 "participants". IIRC, the AFL has previously claimed there are c. 200,000 AF volunteers in Australia. (The 2008 Annual report said there were c. 100,000 volunteers in GR AF)

https://footballfedtas.com.au/football-tasmania-releases-state-of-play-report/
(This includes the actual State Of Play Report)

2. In Tas. soccer's State Of Play Report, it states "Football participation in Tasmania is bursting at the seams, with over 17,000 registered participants making football the state's largest club-based sport". Again this is a falsehood.
The AFL claims c. 44,407 Tas. Official, registered participants (& the AFL does not count volunteers in its Official "participant"nos.)

Will the MSM challenge these soccer falsehoods? Probably not, why? The FFA is using their own official participant statistics to propagate their case for increased govt., Council etc. funding (& probably private funding, sponsorships etc.). I suspect they are also making these falsehoods to Chinese, Middle Eastern etc. entities to "boost" Australian soccer, & to invest in soccer in Australia.
 
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HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Tasmanian soccer official, M. Bulkeley (CEO FT) said a few days ago, re Tasmania
" We have also set a target to grow participation to...a total of 26,000 players, volunteers, coaches and referees...".

This suggests the FFA includes "volunteers, coaches and referees" in its national total of 1,851,683 (2018) "participants".
Does anyone know, or have other information etc, this is soccer's definition of official, registered "participants".

The AFL does not include GR AF volunteers in its total (2018) of 1,649,178 "participants". IIRC, the AFL has previously claimed there are c. 200,000 AF volunteers in Australia.

https://footballfedtas.com.au/football-tasmania-releases-state-of-play-report/
(This includes the actual State Of Play Report)

In Tas. soccer's State Of Play Report, it states "Football participation in Tasmania is bursting at the seams, with over 17,000 registered participants making football the state's largest club-based sport".

Again this is a falsehood. The AFL claims c. 22,000 Tas. participants. Will the MSM challenge these soccer falsehoods? The FFA is using their own official participant statistics to propagate their case for increased govt., Council etc. funding (& probably private funding, sponsorships etc.)
It’s all BS mate. Tassie soccer have about 11,000 players. “Participants” make up the rest. I remember hearing on the radio when they were talking about AFL neglecting Tassie that “soccer will take over” but apparently they actually have had a drop in actual players as well.
The AFL done the same in counting umpires, coaches ect.
I wonder if Joe Blow who coaches the ones, plays ones and Refs the juniors than in the off-season plays 9’s/touch/futsal how many times he is counted by the sports.
Same as a kid doing a “program” at a school than plays on the weekends as well or play soccer and futsal.
All participation numbers are a farce.
 

Gigantor

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As long as everyone understands how the numbers are counted. If sports want to count players, officials, whatever, just do it as accurately as you can and qualify your numbers.

Double counting is a bit of an issue, but there are probably ways to reduce the impact of that.

It's very difficult to stage an official game of Australian Football, even at amateur level: at least six umps, 40 to 44 players, independent time keeper, coaches, managers, scoreboard attendants, a hell of a lot of people need to come together to get a game off the ground - it's probably something worth counting.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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As long as everyone understands how the numbers are counted. If sports want to count players, officials, whatever, just do it as accurately as you can and qualify your numbers.

Double counting is a bit of an issue, but there are probably ways to reduce the impact of that.

It's very difficult to stage an official game of Australian Football, even at amateur level: at least six umps, 40 to 44 players, independent time keeper, coaches, managers, scoreboard attendants, a hell of a lot of people need to come together to get a game off the ground - it's probably something worth counting.
Soccer count volunteers too apparently which seems crazy. I’m not sure what justifies a volunteer but nearly every club I’ve ever been at has had about 50 volunteers in some capacity. Most likely more actually
 

BobbyMorri

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Tasmanian soccer official, M. Bulkeley (CEO FT) said a few days ago, re Tasmania
" We have also set a target to grow participation to...a total of 26,000 players, volunteers, coaches and referees...".

This suggests the FFA includes "volunteers, coaches and referees" in its national total of 1,851,683 (2018) "participants".
Does anyone know/confirm (or have other information etc.) if this is soccer's definition of official, registered "participants".

The AFL does not include GR AF volunteers in its total (2018) of 1,649,178 "participants". IIRC, the AFL has previously claimed there are c. 200,000 AF volunteers in Australia. (The 2008 Annual report said there were c. 100,000 volunteers in GR AF)

https://footballfedtas.com.au/football-tasmania-releases-state-of-play-report/
(This includes the actual State Of Play Report)

In Tas. soccer's State Of Play Report, it states "Football participation in Tasmania is bursting at the seams, with over 17,000 registered participants making football the state's largest club-based sport".

Again this is a falsehood. The AFL claims c. 44,407 Tas. Official, registered participants. Will the MSM challenge these soccer falsehoods? probably not, why? The FFA is using their own official participant statistics to propagate their case for increased govt., Council etc. funding (& probably private funding, sponsorships etc.). I suspect they are also making these falsehoods to Chinese, Middle Eastern entities to "boost" Australian soccer, & to invest in soccer in Australia.
Holy moly. You really need a break and to take the foil off. That last paragraph is something else.

So, let me get this right. When Soccer uses Ausplay figures, you dont like that. But when Soccer uses official participant statistics, you don't like that either. What figures would you like instead.....

FFT (or FT now), is a separate body from the FFA, so lets keep it Tassie based. Is soccer allowed to make a case for more funding from the government without wild theories about foreign investment? Is soccer allowed to have targets? Is soccer allowed to talk itself up?

Btw, The last club participation figure from AFL Tas in 2017 was 13K, that 44K figure is overall. The important word there is club based. Now the question is, what is club based....I say lets not make this an academic study and treat these figures as spin and marketing.

Having had a quick look, I noticed something far more relevant.

Soccers outdoor playing numbers fell from 2017 from 12.1K to 11.7K. But in saying that, so did mens in AFL(4% IIRC). And it might be worse this year with another largeish club going into a recess(Circular Head). The AFL p.rate only increased due to the female boom which is going on atm. And i think these 2 things are linked regarding soccer declining numbers. I noticed that there are fewer teams in big comps of women's soccer, and one of the reasons they gave was the fact they lost players to Aussie Rules clubs. I am not saying it is the only reason and I don't have numbers or a trend for it. Just a theory.
 
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When Soccer uses Ausplay figures, you dont like that.[Because Ausplay counts someone as a participant even if they played a particular sport ONLY ONCE in the last 12 months. This methodology strongly inflates soccer "participant" nos., cf AF, RL, & RU]
But when Soccer uses official participant statistics, you don't like that either.[I never said I don't like any sports' OWN official nos... I said there needs to be CLARITY in how they define "participants"]
What figures would you like instead[There should be CLARITY in sports' official nos. eg what does "community programs" mean? Does the FFA include volunteers in its official nos.?]
I have provided numerous quotes & Links in this thread by soccer officials where they have made false claims re their participant nos., & those of other codes.
Do you agree they are falsehoods? And do you support them making these falsehoods?
 
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All participation numbers are a farce.
1. Yes, they are all not completely accurate.

The official nos. reported by all sports (including the AFL, FFA, NRL & RA) would have some players, sometimes, being counted twice or thrice- but the actual sports' own registrations are the most accurate figures available.
Soccer, due to its "easy" format/rules/relative safety/good player recovery times/12 month pa playing availablity etc. would have the most nos. of players who are counted, officially, multiple times.

Also, AFL, FFA, NRL, RA & most sports' Official nos. have 50%+ who are involved in various One-off & short term events -ie non Club or school regular competition players.

AFL Victoria states, in 2018, Vic. has 80,000 AF volunteers- but AF never include these in the Official, registered "participant"nos.

https://aflvic.com.au/record-participation-for-football-in-victoria/

If the FFA is including volunteers, then the AFL can also include its c.200,000, volunteers. This would result in Official AFL nos. being very close to official FFA nos.

2. Marketing experts are claiming that the NRL off-season scandals will have long term negative effects on the levels of funding it will receive from sponsors.

https://www.nambuccaguardian.com.au/story/5903771/nrl-warned-of-sponsor-exodus-over-scandals/

SEN Radio 28.2 G. Whateley program interviewed an NRL reporter (didn't hear the name)- who said the NRL has lost c. $10,000,000 in sponsorship due to the current negative publicity generated by the off-field poor NRL player behaviour/ media reporting.
 
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