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List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

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Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link


To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...
www.bigfooty.com www.bigfooty.com
 
gringo2011 said:
What does Jam Tins even mean, he kicks a lot more than Crouch and does a lot of long kicking. That's just ignorant. Crouch would be more handball happy. Look at the inside 50s and meters gained, doesn't support your argument.

Luke Dunstan and Brad Crouch AFL Stats Comparison

Luke Dunstan and Brad Crouch AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com www.footywire.com
Click to expand...
Dunstan was huge for us in the first month that he came back into the side, and is still playing pretty well now, but why even bother with the stats on this one? The eye test is all you need to know dunstan's kicking is a liability. He can't hit a target, long or short. Crouch is no nicky winmar but he at least puts the ball to advantage more times than not. Dunstan's flat drop punts spin horizontally and land in the strangest of places.. like ben simmons, at this point he should probably try using his other side it's that bad
 
MOLTEN GANGLANDS said:
Dunstan was huge for us in the first month that he came back into the side, and is still playing pretty well now, but why even bother with the stats on this one? The eye test is all you need to know dunstan's kicking is a liability. He can't hit a target, long or short. Crouch is no nicky winmar but he at least puts the ball to advantage more times than not. Dunstan's flat drop punts spin horizontally and land in the strangest of places.. like ben simmons, at this point he should probably try using his other side it's that bad
Click to expand...


I don't think it is any more. It was always his issue in the past but he's so much better now. Better disposal efficiency that Crouch despite kicking more and longer. Ratts has him playing to his strengths. He was absolutely shit once, probably the worst disposer of a footy since Jack Daniels but he's a new player.
 

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The Punter said:
2021: the year where there are no A grade key forwards.
Click to expand...

I certainly could be wrong, but just looking at it:

2020: Hawkins only (but weird year obviously - had to take into account 0.75 game length to get him over the line)
2019: Cameron, Brown, Lynch
2018: Riewoldt, Brown, Hawkins
2017: Franklin, Kennedy, Daniher, Brown
2016: Kennedy, Franklin, (Betts), Lynch, Jenkins
2015: Kennedy, (Betts), Cameron
2014: Franklin, Roughead, Hawkins, Schulz, J Riewoldt, Kennedy
2013: Roughead, Cloke, Cameron, Franklin, Kennedy
2012: Pavlich, Franklin, J Riewoldt, Walker, Hawkins
2011: Franklin, Cloke, J Riewoldt
2010: Hall, J Riewoldt, Franklin, (S Johnson), (LeCras), Pavlich
2009: Fevola, Brown, N Riewoldt, Franklin

Seems about right to me. I guess CHFs like Rooey could get away without kicking 60 and still be A grade, different role, but Max doesn't look like he projects as a CHF, rather a FF.
 
bergholt said:
I certainly could be wrong, but just looking at it:

2020: Hawkins only (but weird year obviously - had to take into account 0.75 game length to get him over the line)
2019: Cameron, Brown, Lynch
2018: Riewoldt, Brown, Hawkins
2017: Franklin, Kennedy, Daniher, Brown
2016: Kennedy, Franklin, (Betts), Lynch, Jenkins
2015: Kennedy, (Betts), Cameron
2014: Franklin, Roughead, Hawkins, Schulz, J Riewoldt, Kennedy
2013: Roughead, Cloke, Cameron, Franklin, Kennedy
2012: Pavlich, Franklin, J Riewoldt, Walker, Hawkins
2011: Franklin, Cloke, J Riewoldt
2010: Hall, J Riewoldt, Franklin, (S Johnson), (LeCras), Pavlich
2009: Fevola, Brown, N Riewoldt, Franklin

Seems about right to me. I guess CHFs like Rooey could get away without kicking 60 and still be A grade, different role, but Max doesn't look like he projects as a CHF, rather a FF.
Click to expand...
If we're putting a number on it, I'd probably lower the bar slightly in the current game. Even over that decade you've shown, there is a reduction in the players getting to 60. 50-55 is probably where I'd put it, given where the game has gone in terms of scoring and team defence.
 
Ducky Tie said:
If we're putting a number on it, I'd probably lower the bar slightly in the current game. Even over that decade you've shown, there is a reduction in the players getting to 60. 50-55 is probably where I'd put it, given where the game has gone in terms of scoring and team defence.
Click to expand...

For ease of use -

750 listed players, equally divided into backs, mids and forwards giving us 250 of each.

Elite: Top 5% - 38 players (12.66 per line)
A Garde: 6-15% - 75 players
B Grade: 16-30% - 113 players
C Grade: 31-55% - 188 players
D Grade: the rest

Solely on forwards, if my above is even remotely accurate (I think I've been generous on 38 elite), goals would be a consideration but not the determining factor. Given only 12 players can be elite, much more needs to be considered, tackles, contested marks etc...become huge in this.
 
gringo2011 said:
I don't think it is any more. It was always his issue in the past but he's so much better now. Better disposal efficiency that Crouch despite kicking more and longer. Ratts has him playing to his strengths. He was absolutely sh*t once, probably the worst disposer of a footy since Jack Daniels but he's a new player.
Click to expand...
I'm a bigger supporter of Luke than a lot of people on here, but his kicking was rubbish, is rubbish and will always be rubbish.
It hasn't improved.
Like Seb, he can string a game or two together without it being noticeable - then he'll have a shocker.
I do agree that Ratts is trying to have him play to his strengths, but unless you ban him from kicking inside 50 altogether he's going to cause headaches now and then. That's fine if he's making up for it in other ways, which lately he's been doing.
Daniels was a really useful player. Just have to weigh up whether their other contributions outweigh the turnovers. For Daniels they usually did. For Luke they have been, lately. I don't mind having Luke and Brad in there together, so long as we've got Jones/Gresh e.t.c in there for some speed and spark. Geary looks done, which means we shouldn't see Gears/Dunstan/Ross in the same team again - which did my head in completely.
By the way, using stats to tell people who watch the game week-in-week-out that someone can kick well is utterly pointless about 93% of the time.
 
gringo2011 said:
Mc Kay should get there or is he long term injured? Hawkins might top the goal kicking again with finals. Bruce and Walker obviously aren't getting there now.
Click to expand...
Carlton idiots put him back on the ground with a ****ed shoulder when they were already out of finals contention. He’ll miss the rest of the year now with AC
 
gringo2011 said:
I don't think it is any more. It was always his issue in the past but he's so much better now. Better disposal efficiency that Crouch despite kicking more and longer. Ratts has him playing to his strengths. He was absolutely sh*t once, probably the worst disposer of a footy since Jack Daniels but he's a new player.
Click to expand...
Crouchs disposal efficiency is down when he's at the bottom of the pack in congestion. Dunstan's is still down when he's out in a paddock by himself. He still gets an effective disposal stat even if he jams a handball to his mates shin.
 
gringo2011 said:
I've had the Aberfeldy, it's a good wine. $30 is a weekday wine, $50 is having someone over wine or an indulgence anyway. Bin 28 is it's equal and at $10 cheaper sounds like a good buy. Actually I just saw Dan's have the Aberfeldy at $51 so maybe need to do a taste test and grab one of both.
Click to expand...
Try The Ladies who shoot their lunch. It is a ripper
 
Ducky Tie said:
If we're putting a number on it, I'd probably lower the bar slightly in the current game. Even over that decade you've shown, there is a reduction in the players getting to 60. 50-55 is probably where I'd put it, given where the game has gone in terms of scoring and team defence.
Click to expand...


Bruce and Walker were close despite being out now and if he'd stayed fit McKay looked like he'd have easily kicked 60 to 70.
 

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gringo2011 said:
Bruce and Walker were close despite being out now and if he'd stayed fit McKay looked like he'd have easily kicked 60 to 70.
Click to expand...
Yeah it's still possible to get there. It's been four years though since more than three players got to 60. Bruce/Walker based on averages were on track for 53/62 goals. That would have got us to two players this year getting to 60 (McKay and Walker without missing games/injury). Definitely a downward curve from 5-10 years ago when there was often 4-6 players getting to 60. Given the increased difficulty in getting there, I reckon 50-55 probably counts as an A-grade season.
 
luca77 said:
I'm a bigger supporter of Luke than a lot of people on here, but his kicking was rubbish, is rubbish and will always be rubbish.
It hasn't improved.
Like Seb, he can string a game or two together without it being noticeable - then he'll have a shocker.
I do agree that Ratts is trying to have him play to his strengths, but unless you ban him from kicking inside 50 altogether he's going to cause headaches now and then. That's fine if he's making up for it in other ways, which lately he's been doing.
Daniels was a really useful player. Just have to weigh up whether their other contributions outweigh the turnovers. For Daniels they usually did. For Luke they have been, lately. I don't mind having Luke and Brad in there together, so long as we've got Jones/Gresh e.t.c in there for some speed and spark. Geary looks done, which means we shouldn't see Gears/Dunstan/Ross in the same team again - which did my head in completely.
By the way, using stats to tell people who watch the game week-in-week-out that someone can kick well is utterly pointless about 93% of the time.
Click to expand...


How is Gresham any better? I'd say he's nearly the worst field kick in the side since Dunstan improved, he's got a lot of dynamic qualities like extracting at speed etc and some incredible lateral movement and he's one of my favourites but his good kicks go 50 meters high and float back where ever they want to. You seem to be moving the goal posts to suit your narrative there. I think Jones and Gresham both add pace and a point of difference to a stodgy midfield though.

I'd say apart from Steele most of our midfield are not great users. Seb is super hit and miss, he'll give silver service entry inside 50 and absolutely butcher a relatively easy kick but gets canned like he's terrible all the time. People see what they want to see. Jones is also a bit Seb like, he can use the ball well but seems to butcher under pressure and sometimes over commits to trying to run out of trouble and munts it. I think Bytel looks a good kick but can't get enough ball to justify a spot yet.

I'd say most people have a bias and once you've decided someone is a poor kick you'll see the 4 bad ones and bank that as regular form and don't notice the good ones. Seb Ross is your classic case in point. If you don't rate him you'll see the 3 mistakes and hate his game, if you are more open minded you see the whole body of work good and bad, if you're his mum you see the 4 brilliant kicks. Tim Membrey has had 2 below average year but because he's a loved player people think he's a gun still. Butler was amazing last year and hasn't been able to back it up but doesn't get any criticism because people remember how good he was. He's held to a completely different standard to Lonie who been no worse but without the one good season.

Geary is cooked, the only good reason for keeping him is as a line coach paid as a player. Ross plays very few midfield minutes these days and is more a HBF/wing hybrid.

Funny enough lots of the best players are average kicks but just have the ability to lift at big moments and have that edge over others in their competitiveness. I think David King said from 28 shots on goal on the run in 2019, Dangerfield had kicked at 9%. His field kicking has always been pretty agricultural too. You'd pick him every week though because he adds much much more than he takes away.
 
Ducky Tie said:
Yeah it's still possible to get there. It's been four years though since more than three players got to 60. Bruce/Walker based on averages were on track for 53/62 goals. That would have got us to two players this year getting to 60 (McKay and Walker without missing games/injury). Definitely a downward curve from 5-10 years ago when there was often 4-6 players getting to 60. Given the increased difficulty in getting there, I reckon 50-55 probably counts as an A-grade season.
Click to expand...


I think it's this funny point where there are no dominant teams at the moment and the old guard is changing to a new generation. Guys like Ben Brown haven't had a good run, guys like Riewoldt and Kennedey are at the end and the next generation are just building up. McKay looks like the new Josh Kennedey and will kick over 60 goals for another 5 plus years. 2x Kings won't be far behind. Lynch was injured etc. I think it's probably just a calm before a storm type situation. The KPFs coming through look scary good.

It's the same with mids, guys like Danger and Fyfe haven't been able to get going while Bont and Petracca are starting to become the new superstars. Guys like Steele, Touk Miller, Walsh, Wines and Steele types coming up behind them.
 

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gringo2011 said:
How is Gresham any better? I'd say he's nearly the worst field kick in the side since Dunstan improved, he's got a lot of dynamic qualities like extracting at speed etc and some incredible lateral movement and he's one of my favourites but his good kicks go 50 meters high and float back where ever they want to. You seem to be moving the goal posts to suit your narrative there. I think Jones and Gresham both add pace and a point of difference to a stodgy midfield though.

I'd say apart from Steele most of our midfield are not great users. Seb is super hit and miss, he'll give silver service entry inside 50 and absolutely butcher a relatively easy kick but gets canned like he's terrible all the time. People see what they want to see. Jones is also a bit Seb like, he can use the ball well but seems to butcher under pressure and sometimes over commits to trying to run out of trouble and munts it. I think Bytel looks a good kick but can't get enough ball to justify a spot yet.

I'd say most people have a bias and once you've decided someone is a poor kick you'll see the 4 bad ones and bank that as regular form and don't notice the good ones. Seb Ross is your classic case in point. If you don't rate him you'll see the 3 mistakes and hate his game, if you are more open minded you see the whole body of work good and bad, if you're his mum you see the 4 brilliant kicks. Tim Membrey has had 2 below average year but because he's a loved player people think he's a gun still. Butler was amazing last year and hasn't been able to back it up but doesn't get any criticism because people remember how good he was. He's held to a completely different standard to Lonie who been no worse but without the one good season.

Geary is cooked, the only good reason for keeping him is as a line coach paid as a player. Ross plays very few midfield minutes these days and is more a HBF/wing hybrid.

Funny enough lots of the best players are average kicks but just have the ability to lift at big moments and have that edge over others in their competitiveness. I think David King said from 28 shots on goal on the run in 2019, Dangerfield had kicked at 9%. His field kicking has always been pretty agricultural too. You'd pick him every week though because he adds much much more than he takes away.
Click to expand...
I wasn't suggesting Gresh is a better kick. I was talking about general balance. Dunstan and Crouch are pretty stodgy, so I think with both of them we really need Jones/Gresh running through there.
I think it's pretty amusing though that you think Dunstan has somehow improved his kicking in a few weeks. You don't go from shanks and helicopters to being a decent kick mid season at 26 in 11 games. Every year people say "Oh Seb's come good", then he'll blow three or four forward thrusts in the space of a quarter.
I also think it's a bit patronising the way you think other people are more swayed by a few crap kicks than you are by a few decent ones. Subjective bias is a real thing - doesn't mean other people have it any more than you do. You say his kicking's improved, I say it hasn't - that's footy. I'm pretty sure we all read BigFooty with a filter on. Anything Premium writes needs to have the positivity watered down a bit. Other people need the negativity watered down a bit. Other people will die on a hill supporting some aspect of a player and dig around for stats that support their opinion. I don't know if we ever really convince each other of anything much in the end despite all the effort that goes into it!
Anyway, like I said - I'm a fan of Luke and hope he holds his spot. He's going to need to keep drawing on nothing less than maximum effort each week to do that though, given he's such a $#!+ kick.
 
I want to trade Seb for the simple reason of he never gets back off his mark when taking a free. He stands exactly where he marked it and looks for 90 degree lateral options then when they never eventuate he then backs up a few steps and kicks long down the line.
If he just backed up straight away and took on a quicker option be wouldn't stifle our forward movement so much.
He and members are often the one that put a hold on our quick launches forward

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gringo2011 said:
I think it's this funny point where there are no dominant teams at the moment and the old guard is changing to a new generation. Guys like Ben Brown haven't had a good run, guys like Riewoldt and Kennedey are at the end and the next generation are just building up. McKay looks like the new Josh Kennedey and will kick over 60 goals for another 5 plus years. 2x Kings won't be far behind. Lynch was injured etc. I think it's probably just a calm before a storm type situation. The KPFs coming through look scary good.

It's the same with mids, guys like Danger and Fyfe haven't been able to get going while Bont and Petracca are starting to become the new superstars. Guys like Steele, Touk Miller, Walsh, Wines and Steele types coming up behind them.
Click to expand...
Yeah I think that's probably true. The new generation of young KPFs is bloody exciting. King x 2, Naughton, McKay, Allen, Larkey and Georgiades already putting together really impressive seasons. Then theres Ugle-Hagan, McDonald, Thilthorpe etc looking like big talents. Could be an exciting time.

The previous crop of young talent has been a real pity overall. The McCartin, Boyd, Patton, Schache, Hogan period of high draft pick KPFs was a let down for a multitude of various reasons.

Hopefully this new era of KPFs can deliver on expectations. It would help if the game opened up a bit. I still think we're very unlikely to see more than a very rare season of 70+ goals from these types unless we get a little bit less team defence.
 
longlivelenny said:
I want to trade Seb for the simple reason of he never gets back off his mark when taking a free. He stands exactly where he marked it and looks for 90 degree lateral options then when they never eventuate he then backs up a few steps and kicks long down the line.
If he just backed up straight away and took on a quicker option be wouldn't stifle our forward movement so much.
He and members are often the one that put a hold on our quick launches forward

On Pixel 3 XL using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
I cant work out why the runner is not straight out to them. This is a coaching issue. Surely the coaches would not be telling them to play like that.
 
Ross's problem a lot of the time is he is an unambitious kick - he's programmed to take the "least worst" option. Can be very useful at times. Dunstan attempts kicks that Ross would be highly unlikely to take. Billings has the same issues as Ross, but is nowhere near as good at dealing with traffic.

Gresham is not a great field kick, but his burst from stoppage and ability to score mean he's a difference maker. Seems happy to take responsibility on, which some others tend not to do.

Jones is an excellent kick from a stoppage (long and quick) but I don't want him kicking from behind the mark going down the line.

Crouch and Dunstan are similar by foot, but I feel Crouch makes fewer mistakes by foot. Perhaps I haven't watched him as much. Either way, Crouch has a contract for next season and Dunstan does not.

I find it harder and harder to poke holes in Steele's game.

Sinclair is an excellent decision maker and is very good at reversing the field (running to one side then changing direction, which opens up the other side of the ground). McKenzie has started doing that. Hill is a neat kick but one sided and has a nasty habit of running on to his wrong foot to receive and handball.

Clark's best skill is creating space in congestion where none previously existed. He is neither a great or a poor kick.

And Membrey is a good old fashioned ball stopper. It's his fault as a half-forward. Excellent mark, excellent workrate, he marks it and the ball stops. But he is not a midfielder and has never really produced midfield-type numbers.
 
Ducky Tie said:
Yeah I think that's probably true. The new generation of young KPFs is bloody exciting. King x 2, Naughton, McKay, Allen, Larkey and Georgiades already putting together really impressive seasons. Then theres Ugle-Hagan, McDonald, Thilthorpe etc looking like big talents. Could be an exciting time.

The previous crop of young talent has been a real pity overall. The McCartin, Boyd, Patton, Schache, Hogan period of high draft pick KPFs was a let down for a multitude of various reasons.

Hopefully this new era of KPFs can deliver on expectations. It would help if the game opened up a bit. I still think we're very unlikely to see more than a very rare season of 70+ goals from these types unless we get a little bit less team defence.
Click to expand...
I can see Max kicking 60 goals in a year- maybe 2023. His marking is as good as anyones once he gets a run and I hope his kicking has turned the corner for good.
 
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