List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[Tom14]

Warning: The following post is purely hypothetical spitballing.

Undoubtedly it would be very, very hard to find a like for like replacement for Cameron, but we don't necessarily have to.

If Cameron and McCarthy weren't able to start next season, for whatever reason, we could still start the season with a small forward and half forward quartet of Cal Ah Chee, Kia Lohmann, Zac Bailey and Levi Ashcroft.

We could look to change up how our forward six operate, actually learn how to create space for forwards to lead in to, instead of bombing balls on to our tall forwards heads. Heaven knows, there would be hours of footage of Geelong's forward set up to learn from.

It's still possible to find lightening fast smalls in the rookie draft (even the MSD) and work with them over four or five years, to develop their forward craft.

Remember Cameron was a rookie pick, and his role in his early career was to play the defensive forward role, kicking goals was always a bonus for him.

I have never thought that Charlie was a problem for us.

We don't have Chris scott to coach and mold our small forwards to play that role, and it didn't make sense for our personnel to do so. Its a nice idea, but what you are talking about is a fundamental change and we don't have the incredible tall forwards in Hawkins and Cameron to profit of that approach.

Ultimately I think we continue to come up short in midfield outside of lachie, and that's the biggest question mark for me. I love Will, excited by the potential of Levi, but can't expect either of them to come in the next few years and make a difference.

The hypothetical you sketched out feels like swinging too much on unproven gamestyle and options for our forwards, on the hope that it is a better outcome when we have something we know is at least good for lots of regular season wins.

If you think charlie is pretty much done then fine, but I think if he can fix his f-ing kicking then he's still got at least 2 good years in him and I'd like that to be with us.

 

[3KZ is Football]

We should be looking at offloading Cam Rayner at the end of the season.

 

[briztoon]

I have never thought that Charlie was a problem for us.

We don't have Chris scott to coach and mold our small forwards to play that role, and it didn't make sense for our personnel to do so. Its a nice idea, but what you are talking about is a fundamental change and we don't have the incredible tall forwards in Hawkins and Cameron to profit of that approach.

Ultimately I think we continue to come up short in midfield outside of lachie, and that's the biggest question mark for me. I love Will, excited by the potential of Levi, but can't expect either of them to come in the next few years and make a difference.

The hypothetical you sketched out feels like swinging too much on unproven gamestyle and options for our forwards, on the hope that it is a better outcome when we have something we know is at least good for lots of regular season wins.

If you think charlie is pretty much done then fine, but I think if he can fix his f-ing kicking then he's still got at least 2 good years in him and I'd like that to be with us.

I’m waiting to see what happens in the offseason and beginning of 2025, before I have any idea of who’s done.

My two watches are on Neale & Cameron. But I have a lot of other concerns about our club as well, on and off the field.

 

[RoyBoy17]

Wouldn’t be trading anyone out, need the experience on the list whilst we try to regenerate via the draft. In a few years when they are done or perhaps on lower salaries we can then use some cap space to poach a couple from other clubs.

Cameron definitely has more in him. He’s been playing a lot better since early on this season. His finishing skills have let him down recently.

 

[davemc_lions]

We should be looking at offloading Cam Rayner at the end of the season.

If Cam goes might be best for him as well to go somewhere new.

I still wonder if we just do not play him where he be best suited.
What is he a forward although we target Charlie, Joe and Eric first
Or 7th or 8th mid behind others.

AhChee and Dev I say have this problem as well. Even Fagan just said AhChee asked if he could be played forward.
Lester used to as well until we started playing him back every week and he got more consistent.

 

[McIvor]

If Cam goes might be best for him as well to go somewhere new.

I still wonder if we just do not play him where he be best suited.
What is he a forward although we target Charlie, Joe and Eric first
Or 7th or 8th mid behind others.

AhChee and Dev I say have this problem as well. Even Fagan just said AhChee asked if he could be played forward.
Lester used to as well until we started playing him back every week and he got more consistent.

I think the only way Cam improves at the Lions and stays on is if Fagan and his assistants that have been here for years leave because it’d be ridiculous to think he turns it around after all these years with the coaches continuing to use him the way they do. Cam needs a new voice IMO.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If Cam goes might be best for him as well to go somewhere new.

I still wonder if we just do not play him where he be best suited.
What is he a forward although we target Charlie, Joe and Eric first
Or 7th or 8th mid behind others.

AhChee and Dev I say have this problem as well. Even Fagan just said AhChee asked if he could be played forward.
Lester used to as well until we started playing him back every week and he got more consistent.

This is probably the biggest issue I have with our coaching staff. Players will never shine if not played in their best positions. Berry is also a very good example, looks like a completely different player now that he's moved inside.

 

[Dalions]

We should be looking at offloading Cam Rayner at the end of the season.

If it was a choice between Cam and Charlie I think most are taking Cam to be moved on.
Charlie has too much value with the fans.

 

[M Malice]

Slow day today, totally unrealistic hypothetical time.

Would you swap Hugh McCluggage

6

Hugh Mccluggage

Age

26

Ht

185cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.3

5star

K

11.4

4star

HB

7.9

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.0

5star

CL

2.2

4star

D

19.0

4star

K

12.0

5star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

2.0

4star

D

13.2

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

CL

0.6

3star

for Errol Gulden or Chad Warner

1

Chad Warner

Age

23

Ht

185cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.0

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

2.5

2star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.5

3star

CL

0.0

1star

D

7.0

1star

K

4.5

2star

HB

2.5

2star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.5

2star

CL

0.0

1star

D

7.0

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

2.5

3star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.5

4star

CL

0.0

1star

?

 

[Nathan Barley]

Slow day today, totally unrealistic hypothetical time.

Would you swap Hugh McCluggage for Errol Gulden or Chad Warner?

Yes

 

[Elixuh]

Slow day today, totally unrealistic hypothetical time.

Would you swap Hugh McCluggage for Errol Gulden or Chad Warner?

A lot of answers will be based on recency bias. Hugh has been out of form this year. Gulden and Warner are in form.

I see Warner as a bit more of a cream on top player. Imo it’d be between Gulden and Hugh and each have slightly different strengths.

 

[dlanod]

I'd trade Hugh for Gulden purely because of their relative ages. Both have strengths and weaknesses and are or will be very very good midfielders, but one has five extra years of his career.

 

[jono915]

I'd trade Hugh for Gulden purely because of their relative ages. Both have strengths and weaknesses and are or will be very very good midfielders, but one has five extra years of his career.

Let’s pretend that trade did happen, having kiddy and gulden kicking the footy and using their run and carry would be insane

 

[knaf]

From the outside looking in and going back to the U.S trip, Cam and Charlie are the 2 that seem most affected.
Both having very underwhelming years.
If it come to a choice between the 2 who would we least like to lose?

May have been rhetorical, Personally I would keep Charlie. He has a definite and almost irreplaceable role in our best 23. I can’t recall if he has been AA, but I know he has been in the 40 considered a couple of times at least. In addition, you can see the pain in his expression, when he knows he isn’t playing at the level he aspires to. Reckon he loves the club, rather than just enjoying the experience of being part of a club.

 

[briztoon]

Slow day today, totally unrealistic hypothetical time.

Would you swap Hugh McCluggage for Errol Gulden or Chad Warner?

Yes.

 

[Dalions]

Slow day today, totally unrealistic hypothetical time.

Would you swap Hugh McCluggage for Errol Gulden or Chad Warner?

Is there an option to take all 3?

 

[Elixuh]

Is there an option to take all 3?

Not without a sponsorship from Visy

 

[Section 5]

The question is where you play Hugh who is about to sign a $1 million a year contract, so he won't be traded.
Also, where does Hugh prefer to play.

Mids: Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft when he returns & Berry at present.

 

[Dalions]

The question is where you play Hugh who is about to sign a $1 million a year contract, so he won't be traded.
Also, where does Hugh prefer to play.

Mids: Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft when he returns & Berry at present.

Neale, Dunkley, WAshcroft, Berry, McCluggage, Bailey, Rayner maybe even throw in LAshcroft and Dev in a Mid/forward type role and it is a pretty good mix on paper.

 

[jjami15]

Cam needs a new voice IMO.

They all do!

 

[Tom14]

I'd trade Hugh for Gulden purely because of their relative ages. Both have strengths and weaknesses and are or will be very very good midfielders, but one has five extra years of his career.

I agree but to add another layer here - Warner and Gulden would likely cost at least $1.3 mill to get out of Sydney to another club. You always have to pay someone significantly more to leave their club and come to you than you do to re-sign them.

If the choice is Gulden/Warner for $1.3 mill for 6+ years, or Hugh for $1 mill for 5-6 years I think it gets a bit more interesting as a conversation. Factor in as well, we don't have to give up draft picks for Hugh, whereas we have to give up at minimum two first round picks for either sydney player.

Think it is a closer choice than some imagine it being. I think I'd do it for either of them, but worth noting that in Warner's case he had a much weaker season last year and is only starting to be more consistent. It's a projection whereas we know what Hugh does for us.

 

[Sproj]

Inside mids:
Neale, Berry, Dunkley, WAshcroft, LAshcroft, Robertson/Tunstill, Marshall

Outside mids:
Sharp, Fletcher, McCluggage, LAshcroft, Marshall, Reville

Small Forwards:
Bailey, Lohmann, Cameron, McCarthy, Ah Chee, Rayner

To me, Rayner has to be a permanent small/medium forward and needs to be told that is his role moving forward. If we need to put him into the midfield ONCE a game do it but otherwise, just give him a simple role for the rest of the season and let him sink or swim. If he continues to sink, let him go.

Basically, the above is what we should build now moving forward. Obviously, in terms of draft / trade, if we do finish low on the ladder this year and sneak a player in before LAshcroft, I'm telling you, we need a small forward - unless I am missing someone, we are looking light on in that area. I'd still really like to get Ainswerth and I would be happy to let Cam walk to get him because at least Ben works his butt off.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Obviously, in terms of draft / trade, if we do finish low on the ladder this year and sneak a player in before LAshcroft, I'm telling you, we need a small forward - unless I am missing someone, we are looking light on in that area.

Do we? I see five good small forwards in your list above even before we get to Rayner. And Levi himself is rated by some draft watchers as being equally good playing as a small forward as he is in midfield.

 

[Elixuh]

My only wonder with Rayner is whether Zorko was going to play the connecting role Rayner does and because of injury we can’t do what we were going to do this season.

I still think we have guys who could play rayners role and free him up to play predominantly mid.

 

[Section 5]

Neale, Dunkley, WAshcroft, Berry, McCluggage, Bailey, Rayner maybe even throw in LAshcroft and Dev in a Mid/forward type role and it is a pretty good mix on paper.

Thats what i mean does the club want to pay $1 million per year to a player to play forward/mid/possibly wing/bench.
He sits behind Neale, Dunkley and Ashcroft in most people's thinking, so his midfield time will be restricted.
Hugh playing that F/M role will be fine and he will do well in that role.

Personally, i would move him back to the wing when Ashcroft is ready to resume full time midfield minutes.
But Hugh may want to play midfield and with a new contract being decided the club may agree in principle to that request to keep him.
When Ashcroft is playing his usual midfield minutes there is not much midfield time left for McCluggage and Berry.

Everyone being healthy and 100% this is what i would run with when all available in a month or so time.

Mids: Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft that combo is rock solid.
Relief Mids: Bailey, Lohmann, Reville & Zorko all F/M with Fletcher being introduced to a wing/midfield relief.

Wings: McCluggage, Wilmot, Berry midfield/wing relief.

No Rayner in the midfield for me. Would rather see what stints from Lohmann, Reville & Fletcher produce.
Moving Wilmot and reluctantly Zorko makes room for Starcevich and Bain down back