MrSlippyFist
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- May 1, 2024
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Hilariously ignorant comment.
20th AFL Team
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Fair jab on #17 crowd loves it
View attachment 7E32B6FE-8A4E-482F-A79B-8C4E8B7EE54E.mp4
View attachment 7E32B6FE-8A4E-482F-A79B-8C4E8B7EE54E.mp4
- Nov 16, 2014
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How many interstate teams have the afl allowed to fold? How many have had to relocate?
But the AFL has twice relocated Melbourne teams. And already tried to relocate NM
Meeting some real dumb NM supporters on here
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Once.
And even that one relocation was at the behest of the South Melbourne board in 1981, when they proposed to play all 1982 home games in Sydney and all away games at the then VFL Park under lights. The VFL approved the South Melbourne proposal to play 11 home games in Sydney.
And failed. The board opposed it and the AFL knew it couldn't make them move.
- Nov 16, 2014
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Relocation… merged
The point still stands. And like the rest of the points I’ve raised, I expect you to either not get it or be oppositional for the sake of an argument or being right
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Dear oh dear. That didn't happen either.Relocation… merged
One relocation. 1982. Voluntary.
One relocation only. And that was voluntary.
If you didn't make so many errors, I wouldn't need to correct them.
There will be a 20th AFL club before any relocation of a Melbourne club to...well.... anywhere outside Victoria.
For reasons I have already explained.
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
You're conveniently ignoring that the financial realities are different now than they were 15 years ago, when merger discussions were vaguely relevant.Relocation… merged
The point still stands. And like the rest of the points I’ve raised, I expect you to either not get it or be oppositional for the sake of an argument or being right
AFL industry and club revenue has outpaced core operating expenses. Player salaries have not matched the growth in TV revenue. The footy department spend cap has limited growth in expenses. Membership numbers, despite being a bit rubbery, have contributed legitimately hug increases to annual club revenue. And keep in mind that North fairly gets its share of revenue from things like tge Medallian club, in which a North Melbourne home game "ticket" is individually worth a couple of hundred dollars and seats are sold for the entire season.
There would be a riot among all clubs if the AFL wanted to decrease North's revenue from the AFL because the clubs correctly see it as the revenue that the clubs constructing the competition generate and not the AFL's.
Cunnington Cartel
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The AFL refused to contribute more than base level funding for Tasmania, and as a result, the contract stipulates that the Tas Government is required to provide the Devils with an additional $12m pa to cover the funding gap. The NT’s strategic business case (released last week) projects a $18.89m pa funding gap for a NT-based club.
If a NT club eventuates, then they’ll surely source funding from both federal and territory governments. The AFL might be prepared to tip in a few extra $m above base payments (as a socially responsible gesture). However, when there are likely two governments stepping up to be involved, then you’re absolutely kidding yourself if you think the AFL will provide significant, additional funding for a new franchise from a small market.
The funding model of the NT will be completely different to GC and GWS. The AFL was the main driver behind the Suns and Giants, as they wanted additional clubs in the 1st and 3rd largest markets in the country. Those markets also have less AFL-friendly governments, so it was (and still is) necessary for the league to step up and fulfil a bigger slice of the funding.
This isn’t the case with the NT. Their government have been the ones driving the license bid and they’re prepared to stump up cash, so you can bet your arse that the AFL will leverage that during negotiations (just like they did with Tassie). Therefore, your claim about the potential introduction of NT hurting the bottom line of smaller Victorian clubs isn’t based on “logic” or “facts” at all, it’s simply based on the prejudices you have against those particular clubs.
Attachments
Dillon's latest comments on the 20th team. At least Canberra got a mention, of course the AFL knows it's an option, they've been mentioned before in some Fox articles and others.
"Our focus at AFL House is fairly and squarely on the 19th team, but it’s a great debate again for the 20th team,” Dillon said.
“We have got interest from the NT, there’s interest in North Queensland. People have been talking about a third team out of WA, [or] Canberra, so it’s great that there is interest. Long may that debate continue."
"Our focus at AFL House is fairly and squarely on the 19th team, but it’s a great debate again for the 20th team,” Dillon said.
“We have got interest from the NT, there’s interest in North Queensland. People have been talking about a third team out of WA, [or] Canberra, so it’s great that there is interest. Long may that debate continue."
This was back from 2015. As you can see, Gill wanted a Tassie team to happen eventually, he just didn't feel they were ready yet. I think it was on the AFL radar, it was going to happen, I just find it kind of hilarious that even though it was, they weren't thinking about a 20th team at all. Here are the quotes.
"McLachlan said that economics stood in the way of establishing a side on the island state. “Tasmania deserves its own team. It just does,” McLachlan said. “Their participation rates, their ratings, their attendance, they are as passionate as any state. Their numbers stack up with Victoria and in my view they deserve their own team.”
It’s the business case McLachlan can’t see working in Australia’s smallest state. “The brutal reality right now, the economy and scale of growth mean they financially can’t support their own team playing 11 games, you need $45 million,” he said.
The AFL’s approach to Tasmania contrasts sharply with the “expansion” markets of New South Wales and Queensland.
The league aggressively pursued the stronger markets of Western Sydney, Canberra and Gold Coast by establishing new clubs GWS Giants and Gold Coast, spending tens of millions of dollars to do so.
With around 500,000 people, Tasmania is smaller than the catchment areas of the two expansion sides. McLachlan said the broadcast deal secured the current 18-team format and he couldn’t envisage any changes to the AFL clubs for at least a decade.
“With respect to expansion, I believe we have the right number of teams in the right slots for the foreseeable future and the foreseeable future is 10 to 15 years,” he said.
Tasmania currently hosts Victoria-based clubs Hawthorn and North Melbourne as guest teams in Launceston and Hobart. Hawthorn has played matches at Aurora Stadium since 2001, and last month agreed a new deal to play four home-and-away games a season there until 2021.
The Kangaroos played three matches at Blundstone Arena in Hobart this season but are without a similar long-term agreement.
McLachlan foreshadowed changes to the arrangement in future.
“That’s the one state that I think, as I look around Australia - we are happy with where everybody is - [but] I don’t think Tasmania is quite right yet,” he said. “We need to get the model to work down there and we’ll continue to work on that.”
I don't know about you guys, but I would've been thinking about the 20th team back then if I was thinking about the 19th and planning for it to happen within the next 10-15 years.
To me it looks comically similar to the Dolphins situation. That's all the NRL wanted, they didn't give a toss about the 18th team, now they've decided that's what they want and so the debate rages on about who it's going to be.
We're going to see the same thing unfold with the AFL, as the romantic populist favourite NT battles against WA3 and Canberra. I didn't include North Queensland because they aren't going to get the 20th licence outright, but only as a secondary market in Cairns for NT if they go with the Northern Australia model.
If Dillon is smart, they'll go with Canberra, and focus on getting 20 strong teams established by 2050. They'll be in a much stronger financial position to bankroll an NT side by then, because by that stage, the Suns and Giants and smaller Vic clubs should be bigger and stronger than they are now. The NT will never let go of trying to get a team, and as I have said many times before, there's no reason why they couldn't be a team 21 contender in the distant future if they can put something together that isn't gonna be a financial burden on the AFL.
"McLachlan said that economics stood in the way of establishing a side on the island state. “Tasmania deserves its own team. It just does,” McLachlan said. “Their participation rates, their ratings, their attendance, they are as passionate as any state. Their numbers stack up with Victoria and in my view they deserve their own team.”
It’s the business case McLachlan can’t see working in Australia’s smallest state. “The brutal reality right now, the economy and scale of growth mean they financially can’t support their own team playing 11 games, you need $45 million,” he said.
The AFL’s approach to Tasmania contrasts sharply with the “expansion” markets of New South Wales and Queensland.
The league aggressively pursued the stronger markets of Western Sydney, Canberra and Gold Coast by establishing new clubs GWS Giants and Gold Coast, spending tens of millions of dollars to do so.
With around 500,000 people, Tasmania is smaller than the catchment areas of the two expansion sides. McLachlan said the broadcast deal secured the current 18-team format and he couldn’t envisage any changes to the AFL clubs for at least a decade.
“With respect to expansion, I believe we have the right number of teams in the right slots for the foreseeable future and the foreseeable future is 10 to 15 years,” he said.
Tasmania currently hosts Victoria-based clubs Hawthorn and North Melbourne as guest teams in Launceston and Hobart. Hawthorn has played matches at Aurora Stadium since 2001, and last month agreed a new deal to play four home-and-away games a season there until 2021.
The Kangaroos played three matches at Blundstone Arena in Hobart this season but are without a similar long-term agreement.
McLachlan foreshadowed changes to the arrangement in future.
“That’s the one state that I think, as I look around Australia - we are happy with where everybody is - [but] I don’t think Tasmania is quite right yet,” he said. “We need to get the model to work down there and we’ll continue to work on that.”
I don't know about you guys, but I would've been thinking about the 20th team back then if I was thinking about the 19th and planning for it to happen within the next 10-15 years.
To me it looks comically similar to the Dolphins situation. That's all the NRL wanted, they didn't give a toss about the 18th team, now they've decided that's what they want and so the debate rages on about who it's going to be.
We're going to see the same thing unfold with the AFL, as the romantic populist favourite NT battles against WA3 and Canberra. I didn't include North Queensland because they aren't going to get the 20th licence outright, but only as a secondary market in Cairns for NT if they go with the Northern Australia model.
If Dillon is smart, they'll go with Canberra, and focus on getting 20 strong teams established by 2050. They'll be in a much stronger financial position to bankroll an NT side by then, because by that stage, the Suns and Giants and smaller Vic clubs should be bigger and stronger than they are now. The NT will never let go of trying to get a team, and as I have said many times before, there's no reason why they couldn't be a team 21 contender in the distant future if they can put something together that isn't gonna be a financial burden on the AFL.
- Nov 16, 2014
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My points stand.
You know too well what I’m saying
Your nitpicking, right fighting over someone having a contrary read on a topic to yours… just says more about your personality than anything else
Why be a moderator in this case…
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- #2,788
What points? Relocations are difficult to achieve. There's only been one. North are very unlikely to consider relocation for reasons I have already described.
North Melbourne are very unlikely to relocate. If they didn't go to the Gold Coast in 2008, they're not going now or in the near future.
Their current off field situation is much better than it was in 2008 and under those circumstances no club board is going to want to relocate interstate.
I disagree with your premise and I've explained why - quite reasonably - why I disagree with it. I'm not the one calling North Melbourne supporters "dumb".
just says more about your personality than anything else
It doesn't say anything about my 'personality'.
You work it out.
I know I'm probably too optimistic when reading into things, but I see this as a positive for Canberra.
If they wanted to rush things to get a 20th team as soon as possible, that would favour WA3. But the fact they want to wait and do it right favours Canberra.
It gives time for the Giants partnership to run its course, for NSW/ACT pathways to grow, for Manuka to get upgraded, and for Greater Canberra to grow to about 650k people (and the Capital Region to grow to >800k.
Also the first time I've heard Canberra mentioned by the AFL and not immediately followed by "is Giants territory".
Bjo187
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I agree, Dillon mentioned it but strategically at the end to make it appear the last option thought of, as to not affect the giants relationship there. He did just for the first time put it on the table though, which tells me it's being discussed behind closed doors.
MrSlippyFist
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Comparing 1981 South Melbourne and 1996 Fitzroy to 2024 North Melbourne is egregious.
Looking at South Melbourne, the only other club to relocate:
“Survival is the utmost thing in our mind and I couldn’t give a damn where we played if it ensured the club would retain it’s identity,” said Marks, confirming the club’s dire financial plight.
It was revealed that South Melbourne had suffered an operating loss of at least $150,000 for the five previous years, and forecast that the proposal to play in Sydney would turn an operating loss of $180,000 in 1980 into an operating profit of $90,000 in 1982.
Significantly, it was noted that the VFL had frozen South Melbourne’s share of the ground improvement fund, which stood at $500,000 in 1981. This meant the club was unable to improve the facilities at Lake Oval in South Melbourne, which had been the club’s home since 1874.
Couldn't be a more different situation that South Melbourne was facing.
Cunnington Cartel
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They’re actually not. The AFL has only committed to base-level funding for Tassie and that’s why the contract with the government stipulates that the state government is required to contribute $12m of funding to the club for its first 12 years of existence. They are, however, increasing funding to the state body for community footy and talent pathways.
There’s also a clause in the contract that gives the AFL the right to review and terminate the license within the first 10 years if certain KPI’s are not met. This is perhaps another reason why the AFL isn’t so eager to start preparing for #20 just yet.
You make a lot of sense but I'm really tired of the narrative that the NT makes the game truly national and completes the jigsaw puzzle. ACT should not count as part of NSW.
I don't see the big deal in going to 22 teams in the future. I can understand the reservations about going beyond that, but honestly, if there's a narrative to fulfil here about the national profile of the game, there could be a place for the Northern Territory and North Queensland in 30+ years time with their own brand new clubs.
NT would be the last piece of the puzzle after ACT and NQ would factor in as the only other unrepresented place that's probably going to be interested in having a team.
I don't see New Zealand or Newcastle or wherever else demanding a team and I'm not sure in the future that the AFL should continue adding teams in locations that didn't ask for them.
Also, NQ might become its own state one day, so having a team there eventually will ensure that every state in the AFL has a team.
Yeh I think the AFL is big on the national profile concept. How that looks in reality is hard to know.
I agree with your comment that the linking of NSW/ACT is not ideal. I get all the points re Canberra having a stand alone AFL club are valid.
Apart from the obvious population/location etc. Canberra clearly has huge relevance for the AFL...Iconic AFL players Hird, Jesaulenko. An Aussie Rules competition has existed in Canberra almost since Canberra was founded. Even in footy folklore it is relevant....The Barassi Line runs straight thru the ACT, ....Tom Wills who was the key protagonist in starting Aussie Rules was born near the Molonglo river 80 years before they even called it Canberra.
There are a host of reasons why Canberra is a critical location for the AFL, so to have the 20th team there makes a lot of sense.....however the dilemma is that an exclusion of NT would be highly undesirable for the AFL in the long term...particularly as the AFL sees itself as key vehicle in promoting social issues.
Maybe there are other options for Canberra perhaps involving several AFL clubs not just the Giants.
If NT does get team 20, the Suns should move their two games to Cairns and cover NQ.
Roos won’t play home out of Vic after Hobart so that leaves the Hawks.
Get them to play 3-4 games a year in Canberra while the Giants retain their three (plus an away game against the Hawks there).
So that’s 6-7 games a year for Canberra which is not as good as 9-11 but better than three.
I still think they’d be making a mistake to favour NT ahead of ACT but you could see it happening given the rhetoric in the media (they’ve mentioned NT as team 20 a couple times tonight in the Suns game).
And the political points etc.
But I still think they should just hold off on teams in Darwin and Cairns for 30+ years. I like them as choices for teams 21-22 because they’ve actually shown interest and don’t have teams.
I think people are underestimating how little the AFL give a shit about giving WA and SA more representation in the league to balance it out.
I dare say the NT's bid to join the AFL actually took a hit tonight. I highly doubt the Vic teams will support the entry of a team with such a big home ground advantage (against them). Two Queensland clubs in sub-tropical conditions is enough for the Vics.
MelbourneGWS
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Article in yesterday’s News Limited website, that is positive about NT’s team 20 prospects. The main negative seems to be about Cornes claims about the quality of the North match, which Holmes blames on the quality of North (!). There is no mention of the various other metrics that have been discussed in this thread - population, distances, weather etc.
There are reports the Northern Territory has taken a big step towards becoming the AFL’s 20th team, releasing a business case for the licence as well as a new stadium to be built in Darwin’s CBD over the next seven to 10 years at a reported cost of $700-735 million.
It’s a move that would make the AFL a truly national competition as the Darwin team would likely come in a few years after Tasmania join the competition in 2028.
There are reports the Northern Territory has taken a big step towards becoming the AFL’s 20th team, releasing a business case for the licence as well as a new stadium to be built in Darwin’s CBD over the next seven to 10 years at a reported cost of $700-735 million.
It’s a move that would make the AFL a truly national competition as the Darwin team would likely come in a few years after Tasmania join the competition in 2028.
the argument doesnt stand up though. yesterday's game just demolished her argument. better teams? like 2nd on the ladder geelong?
Saucy
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The people supporting an NT team don’t really understand the logistics. Their main reason is “it would be nice”. It’s supposed to be a professional football league. Not a charity.
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