A Comparison

[SJ]

The tale of two teams and two coaches. Try and guess them:

Coach 1:

• Coaches a club that hasn't won the big one since 1966
• Inherited a very poor list midway through 2001
• Completely overhauled the list over the next couple of years
• Coached five and a half seasons, and 123 games for 63-1-58 (51%)
• Made two consecutive Preliminary Finals
• Made three consecutive finals series
• Finished sixth on the ladder this year and was overrun in the Elimination Final
• Positions finished: 15th, 15th, 11th, 3rd, 3rd, 8th (after finals)
• Sacked

Coach 2:

• Coaches a club that hasn't won the big one since 1963
• Inherited a relatively poor list after 1999
• Completely overhauled the list over the next couple of years
• Coached seven season, and 160 games for 79-3-78 (49%)
• Made one Preliminary Final
• Made two consecutive finals series
• Finished 10th on the ladder this year
• Positions finished: 7th, 12th, 9th, 12th, 4th, 5th, 10th
• ?

Discuss.

 

[Triple 7]

Board with balls

v

Board with no balls.

Simple.

 

[SJ]

I agree.

With balls though, not 'will' them.

 

[Sydney_Malakellis]

Saints went to the bottom of the ladder for a few seasons and therefore received a shed-load of draft concessions.
Geelong stayed mediocre and therefore got no concessions.

And Bomber has lady lips that make the board quiver whenever they look at him...

 

[winty]

The tale of two teams and two coaches. Try and guess them:

Coach 1:

• Coaches a club that hasn't won the big one since 1966
• Inherited a very poor list midway through 2001
• Completely overhauled the list over the next couple of years
• Coached five and a half seasons, and 123 games for 63-1-58 (51%)
• Made two consecutive Preliminary Finals
• Made three consecutive finals series
• Finished sixth on the ladder this year and was overrun in the Elimination Final
• Positions finished: 15th, 15th, 11th, 3rd, 3rd, 8th (after finals)
• Sacked

Coach 2:

• Coaches a club that hasn't won the big one since 1963
• Inherited a relatively poor list after 1999
• Completely overhauled the list over the next couple of years
• Coached seven season, and 160 games for 79-3-78 (49%)
• Made one Preliminary Final
• Made two consecutive finals series
• Finished 10th on the ladder this year
• Positions finished: 7th, 12th, 9th, 12th, 4th, 5th, 10th
• ?

Discuss.

You also forgot a few points

Coach 1

• Has had at least 4 top 10 draft picks during his tenure, including a 'free kick' because of Carlton's salary cap breaches, and most of these were in the top 5.
• Has stated 'ruckmen are over-rated', yet his team continually gets trounced in this area
• Had the luxury of luring prize recruits from other teams (Gehrig, Hamill, etc.)
• Was hand-picked because his best mate is the President, or was.
• Took 3 years before he got a highly promising list into the finals.

Coach 2

• Has had 3 top 10 draft picks, but none in the top 5
• Has not had the luxury of luring the big names to the club because of location (ie. McKernan, Rawlings, etc.)
• Has served under two of the best coaches of the late 90's, Denis Pagan and Sheedy.
• Managed to take a 'relatively poor' list (your words, not mine) into the finals in his first year.

 

[SJ]

You also forgot a few points

Coach 1

• Has had at least 4 top 10 draft picks during his tenure, including a 'free kick' because of Carlton's salary cap breaches, and most of these were in the top 5.
• Has stated 'ruckmen are over-rated', yet his team continually gets trounced in this area
• Had the luxury of luring prize recruits from other teams (Gehrig, Hamill, etc.)
• Was hand-picked because his best mate is the President, or was.
• Took 3 years before he got a highly promising list into the finals.

Coach 2

• Has had 3 top 10 draft picks, but none in the top 5
• Has not had the luxury of luring the big names to the club because of location (ie. McKernan, Rawlings, etc.)
• Has served under two of the best coaches of the late 90's, Denis Pagan and Sheedy.
• Managed to take a 'relatively poor' list (your words, not mine) into the finals in his first year.

What about Ottens?

Also, I don't Thomas was sacked now because of seasons 2001-03, and I don't think Bomber will be saved because of his 2000 season. A silly comment.

Stop giving the man excuses, seriously.

 

[My5t3r10u5]

Scary how similar the two clubs have been over the last few years!

I'm not convinced the Saints have made the right decision though. I would have thought they were genuine contenders for the flag next year with a fit list. But with a new and green coach coming in, I think they have less chance. Anyone know if a first-time coach has ever won the GF in their first year?

 

[nananana catman]

[*]Has not had the luxury of luring the big names to the club because of location (ie. McKernan, Rawlings, etc.)

Thank god for that!

 

[winty]

What about Ottens?

Also, I don't Thomas was sacked now because of seasons 2001-03, and I don't think Bomber will be saved because of his 2000 season. A silly comment.

Stop giving the man excuses, seriously.

Ottens was the exception to the rule. How many other big name players have Geelong fished for and not landed?

And my mention of our 2000 season and the St.Kilda's 2001-2003 seasons was to make the point that Thompson has had the ability to get results with poorer lists than what Thomas has had control of. I think if any other coach had had control of St.Kilda over the past 3 years, they'd have at least won one premiership, injuries or not.

 

[My5t3r10u5]

I think if any other coach had had control of St.Kilda over the past 3 years, they'd have at least won one premiership, injuries or not.

Ahhh...it's so easy to say, so hard to do (win a GF that is). Personally I think St. Kilda's list is overrated. Yes they have some gun players, but they don't have depth. Just because a player is drafted in the top 5 picks doesn't make him a better player than a player taken later in the draft. Everyone seems to look at how many top picks they got and says the are a monty for the premiership. I reckon Thomas has done a pretty good job with the Saints and who is to say that another coach would have done worse? Bottom line is I guess we'll never know and that's why we all have so much fun debating it on forums like this....

 

[CF]

I think the Saints may have trumped us here. Whoever the best future coach is around at the moment (I think it is Longmire) will probably go to the Saints over Geelong (ie if Bomber is sacked). You can argue black and blue over which list is better and I think Hawkins will be our Riewoldt, so it is pretty similar. Not to mention we have another top 10 pick this year as well. Where the Saints have it over us is that their on-field leadership group is solid where ours is questionable. Also, you could argue the Saints failure this year was injury related as well. Where our failure this year has been a disgraceful blight on our club history. On paper I think both our sides are pretty even. But the Saints may come out looking better in a few other areas than us. This may mean the best Coach may choose the Saints over us if both offered him a Senior Coaching position.

 

[cat in sydney]

I think the Saints may have trumped us here. Whoever the best future coach is around at the moment (I think it is Longmire) will probably go to the Saints over Geelong (ie if Bomber is sacked). You can argue black and blue over which list is better and I think Hawkins will be our Riewoldt, so it is pretty similar. Not to mention we have another top 10 pick this year as well. Where the Saints have it over us is that their on-field leadership group is solid where ours is questionable. Also, you could argue the Saints failure this year was injury related as well. Where our failure this year has been a disgraceful blight on our club history. On paper I think both our sides are pretty even. But the Saints may come out looking better in a few other areas than us. This may mean the best Coach may choose the Saints over us if both offered him a Senior Coaching position.

Disagree with you on a couple of points there... mainly that with Hawkins coming up (may take a couple of years sure), and Nablett, plus a still young forward setup (apart from Ottens all our forward are young - Chaps, Gablett, Johnson, Mooney etc), and so I would think that a list like that is actually more enticing than a forward setup of Gehrig (who has one season left I reckon) and Reiwoldt who has struggled to live up to high expectations. If I was a prospective senior coach, I think that I'd be more keen on the Cats forward line up (will only get better, let's face it!), than Saints whose forward line up are as good as they'll get.

Thoughts?

 

[DanA]

Disagree with you on a couple of points there... mainly that with Hawkins coming up (may take a couple of years sure), and Nablett, plus a still young forward setup (apart from Ottens all our forward are young - Chaps, Gablett, Johnson, Mooney etc), and so I would think that a list like that is actually more enticing than a forward setup of Gehrig (who has one season left I reckon) and Reiwoldt who has struggled to live up to high expectations. If I was a prospective senior coach, I think that I'd be more keen on the Cats forward line up (will only get better, let's face it!), than Saints whose forward line up are as good as they'll get.

Thoughts?

He is a dead set gun who has had a great season. He is All Australian for christ sake and was All Australian in 2004. Arguably the best performing No.1 Draft pick in the last 20 years

 

[Partridge]

What about Ottens?

Also, I don't Thomas was sacked now because of seasons 2001-03, and I don't think Bomber will be saved because of his 2000 season. A silly comment.

Stop giving the man excuses, seriously.

That's the most important point. He's had 2 years more than Thomas and actually achieved less. You can argue about their early draft picks all you want but it still sugercoats the real issue - Thompson cannot coach to the level required, and he either cannot or will not make hard decisions. The big question now will Cook and the board make a tough decision? I really, really hope they do because I believe with the right man in charge we aren't that far away.

 

[malvern]

I think the Saints may have trumped us here. Whoever the best future coach is around at the moment (I think it is Longmire) will probably go to the Saints over Geelong (ie if Bomber is sacked). You can argue black and blue over which list is better and I think Hawkins will be our Riewoldt, so it is pretty similar. Not to mention we have another top 10 pick this year as well. Where the Saints have it over us is that their on-field leadership group is solid where ours is questionable. Also, you could argue the Saints failure this year was injury related as well. Where our failure this year has been a disgraceful blight on our club history. On paper I think both our sides are pretty even. But the Saints may come out looking better in a few other areas than us. This may mean the best Coach may choose the Saints over us if both offered him a Senior Coaching position.

What? Is Hawkins ability to kick going to vanish?

 

[malvern]

The lists are vastly different! Our list will reach it's peak over the next few years, the Saints have missed the boat. They have a lot of older players that are close to the end. The journey (and structure) for the two clubs lists has been vastly, vastly different despite the superficial similarities mentioned here.

 

[SJ]

The lists are vastly different! Our list will reach it's peak over the next few years, the Saints have missed the boat. They have a lot of older players that are close to the end. The journey (and structure) for the two clubs lists has been vastly, vastly different despite the superficial similarities mentioned here.

It's amazing - the same thing was said in 2001.

HOW LONG WILL WE KEEP SAYING THIS.

 

[SJ]

He is a dead set gun who has had a great season. He is All Australian for christ sake and was All Australian in 2004. Arguably the best performing No.1 Draft pick in the last 20 years

And I agree with you there.

 

[cat in sydney]

He is a dead set gun who has had a great season. He is All Australian for christ sake and was All Australian in 2004. Arguably the best performing No.1 Draft pick in the last 20 years

Yeha, but even if he's better than you're perceiving, can he carry the whole forward line of Saints for years to come? With Hamill and Gehrig on the way out (if not already), then they are actually in a less enticing position than us.
Despite the undoubted talent of Riewoldt, there's more to work with in the near future for the Cats imo.

 

[nananana catman]

It's amazing - the same thing was said in 2001.

HOW LONG WILL WE KEEP SAYING THIS.

Until it reaches its peak and we win a flag

 

[SJ]

Until it reaches its peak and we win a flag

Mate - the same thing would have been said for 43 years. Don't tell me we haven't peaked once in that time. So you're saying to me, that if we have Thompson at the helm, once this list peaks (who knows when that will be - it could have peaked already) we WILL win a flag? If so, I'd like to have that in writing please. And what is the definition of a list 'at its peak'? I think that can only be assessed in retrospect. A peak, to me, seems to be the highest you achieve with a given list. 2004 might have been it...

 

[Partridge]

Mate - the same thing would have been said for 43 years. Don't tell me we haven't peaked once in that time. So you're saying to me, that if we have Thompson at the helm, once this list peaks (who knows when that will be - it could have peaked already) we WILL win a flag? If so, I'd like to have that in writing please. And what is the definition of a list 'at its peak'? I think that can only be assessed in retrospect. A peak, to me, seems to be the highest you achieve with a given list. 2004 might have been it...

I'm inclined to think most of our list has not peaked - Chapman and Ablett are two that are just now starting to really hit their straps, there's still a lot more to come from Bartel, Corey, Rooke etc. But I don't think they'll hit a peak with Thompson there. It seems he can develop players to a certain level but that's it.

 

[malvern]

It's amazing - the same thing was said in 2001.

HOW LONG WILL WE KEEP SAYING THIS.

Whoever said that had rocks in there head. Half the list (all our young "rebuilding" players) hadn't played twenty games yet!

Seriously hown can you say that the list was any where near ready before 04???

 

[malvern]

And I agree with you there.

And one of the major reasons they lost Friday night.

 

[SJ]

Whoever said that had rocks in there head. Half the list (all our young "rebuilding" players) hadn't played twenty games yet!

Seriously hown can you say that the list was any where near ready before 04???

No I agree that the list wasn't anywhere near ready before 2004. But it was then that they were saying "in a few years we'll be ready". I think even in 2000 or so, the official plan was to have a flag by 2004 and 2005. Partridge I agree, I don't think most of our players have reached their potential either. But you're exactly right - there has been NO IMPROVEMENT in two years with Thompson. Most people on this thread seem to think:

List at peak (vague statement) + Thompson = Certain flag

To me, under Thompson, we have gone as far as we can.