News AFL overhauls Academy and FS bid matching, discussing draft lockout

[all seeing eye]

But no problem having David Rodan's kids in your Academy right?

Kaboom, nice slapdown. lol

 

[Elixuh]

That should be the starting point, yes.

Interesting take.

Not all clubs or their circumstances are equal. As one example, the way the fixturing works means a club like Collingwood are able to make much more revenue from games than probably any other club in the league. Do you think that is relevant to distributions?

It is interesting that people consistently argue that certain things should be equal but not everything.

 

[mpal6]

Interesting take.

Not all clubs or their circumstances are equal. As one example, the way the fixturing works means a club like Collingwood are able to make much more revenue from games than probably any other club in the league. Do you think that is relevant to distributions?

It is interesting that people consistently argue that certain things should be equal but not everything.

Whatever doesn't suit me must be equal.
Whatever is benefiting me - don't change that. thanks.

 

[MPMonkeys]

But no problem having David Rodan's kids in your Academy right?

That is just as wrong. If not worse.
The whole NGA concept is outdated. I would wager almost 99% of the kids who are in NGA's have been playing AFL since they were 6 years old.

 

[longdonkey]

That is just as wrong. If not worse.
The whole NGA concept is outdated. I would wager almost 99% of the kids who are in NGA's have been playing AFL since they were 6 years old.

The reason why the northern states were asked by the AFL to open the Academies was to lessen the drain of Victorian draftees going to NSW and Qld and so they could develop their own players. However people like Eddie McGuire couldn't possibly let them have something Melbourne clubs don't have so they were able to pick players who fit a certain criteria such as Ugle-Hagen and Quaynor.
I don't have an issue with academies but I have an issue with the AFL having different rules depending on which state you are in.
I ask the question why should we (SA clubs) develop players like Kossie Picket and Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera just so they can be drafted to a Vic club.
While at the same time rarely getting NGA players ourselves. And now the time where we finally get access to metro eligible talent we will still not be able to draft them because they will be first round picks.

 

[Scotland]

Interesting take.

Not all clubs or their circumstances are equal. As one example, the way the fixturing works means a club like Collingwood are able to make much more revenue from games than probably any other club in the league. Do you think that is relevant to distributions?

It is interesting that people consistently argue that certain things should be equal but not everything.

Whatever doesn't suit me must be equal.
Whatever is benefiting me - don't change that. thanks.

Deflect! Deflect! Deflect!

Collingwood received $22m last year. Prime time powerhouses North and St Kilda got $26m, WB and Melbourne $24m. Not really relevant to the discussion.

Brisbane reported revenue of $92.5m, West Coast $92.6m. That places those two clubs third and fourth. One has pokies, one doesn't. One received $30m from the AFL, one $15m. Equalise Brisbane to an average distribution of $22m and it puts them at $84.5m which is 6th. Hardly Struggle St.

Amazing the lengths you guys will go to to deflect just because "we pay for the academies" was called out.

 

[Elixuh]

Deflect! Deflect! Deflect!

Collingwood received $22m last year. Prime time powerhouses North and St Kilda got $26m, WB and Melbourne $24m. Not really relevant to the discussion.

Brisbane reported revenue of $92.5m, West Coast $92.6m. That places those two clubs third and fourth. One has pokies, one doesn't. One received $30m from the AFL, one $15m. Equalise Brisbane to an average distribution of $22m and it puts them at $84.5m which is 6th. Hardly Struggle St.

Amazing the lengths you guys will go to to deflect just because "we pay for the academies" was called out.

Very animated, Scotty. Why do we get more in the distributions?

 

[Toffee Lion]

How hard is it to just put fair practices around FS/Academies. Keep the systems, make them costly and move on.

Using Dan Annable as an example this year, make so if we want him, he is essentially the only one we can get (As we won't have the draft capital of a lower club) and the other academy products go into the draft.

 

[longdonkey]

How hard is it to just put fair practices around FS/Academies. Keep the systems, make them costly and move on.

Using Dan Annable as an example this year, make so if we want him, he is essentially the only one we can get (As we won't have the draft capital of a lower club) and the other academy products go into the draft.

It's impossible for them to do that because there is an agenda where the AFL only wants certain clubs to benefit from NGA's in the same way some clubs have benefited from father/son picks and now all teams are getting them, the AFL are cutting the rorts.

 

[Toffee Lion]

It's impossible for them to do that because there is an agenda where the AFL only wants certain clubs to benefit from NGA's in the same way some clubs have benefited from father/son picks and now all teams are getting them, the AFL are cutting the rorts.

I'm leaving F/S out of this, it's a chook lotto spin of the wheel that all clubs have access too, some are just luckier than others. If it gets removed, whatever. We didn't have a good F/S for over a decade until we got lucky with the Ashcrofts/Fletcher.

Academies, especially Brisbane/Sydney ones, were designed to increase player representation within the AFL from QLD/NSW. We pay to run them and so deserve benefits. If those benefits are removed, why would Brisbane/Sydney shell out millions for a product they do not benefit from?

You could argue there is a chance they ask for a trade home in years to come but that is a feature that all other clubs get for free anyway.

So then if the academies are halted altogether, numbers from QLD/NSW will naturally drop again and we'll end up right where we were with the Go Home 5, which I recall at the time no one giving a shit about. This was after we lost our COLA allowance. It's just a merry-go-round.

Lions have COLA to help keep interstate talent, it gets removed due to success. Lions struggle to hold onto players. We get an academy to build up our own QLD talent stocks, it gets removed due to success. What's next in the chain of events, cannot wait to find out.

 

[Scotland]

The reason why the northern states were asked by the AFL to open the Academies was to lessen the drain of Victorian draftees going to NSW and Qld

Academies do next to nothing to prevent talent drain into NSW and Qld.

 

[longdonkey]

Academies do next to nothing to prevent talent drain into NSW and Qld.

I have my doubts the AFL had SA or WA in mind when they allowed the Northern Academies but in theory every time a player is drafted out of a academy it means another player isn't drafted out of Vic, SA or WA or wherever but the key being Vic

 

[sydney_gws]

Another simple solution.
If the Northern states want to keep their academy players for themselves, then both the clubs and the players should be excluded from the draft.
They can pick players via the old zone system and the other clubs can use the draft.

Just limit clubs to 3 top 40 matches in 5 years.
GWS and Gold Coast to have 4 as no father sons.
Forces the clubs in some years at least to not match bids, but use their own ladder position draft picks to select their academy players.

 

[Scotland]

I have my doubts the AFL had SA or WA in mind when they allowed the Northern Academies but in theory every time a player is drafted out of a academy it means another player isn't drafted out of Vic, SA or WA or wherever but the key being Vic

In aggregate yes, but last year 71 players were drafted. In 2014 there were 77 and in 2004 (16 teams) there were 71. The majority are from the Talent League every year and go all over. Port, Freo, GWS, Sydney all took their first pick from the Talent League last year. Adding players to the pool grows the pool of available players but no one really cares who the last 20 or 30 players drafted are or where they come from. The idea that non-academy clubs benefit from the increased draft pool is pretty tenuous.

2019 draft:

1 Ugle-Hagan (WB NGA)
2 Thilthorpe
3 Phillips
4 McDonald
5 Campbell (Syd academy)
6 Grainger-Barras
7 Hollands

Take out bidding and the draft order shifts. Take out someone like Campbell on the assumption without the academy he doesn't play footy and Sydney just get one pick instead of two in the top 5. If the system actually worked then Sydney wouldn't be able to double dip, and in any event if you look at it from the perspective that 2-3-4 are the real 1-2-3 as #1 is off limits anyway then the team matching the bid at #1 is still adding a player rated at that level to their list. If WC go to the 2023 draft knowing that we can have any player we want except Harley Reid then that still means another team gets Harley Reid. It's a closed system.

2024 draft:

Bris: one F/S, two academy players
GC: two academy players
GWS: 2 first round picks and 1 second round pick from Talent League, 1 first round pick from WAFL, 1 academy selection
Syd: first round pick from SANFL, first round pick from Talent League, second round pick from VFL, Melbourne NGA player from Talent League (not matched)

You can look at that and say the system is working in Queensland for that year, but Brisbane won the flag and walked away with picks 5 and 25. Sydney were runner up and entered the draft at 22 to just take a kid from Victoria. Gold Coast took two academy players but also traded in Dan Rioli and John Noble before the draft knowing they only needed points not live picks. Neither of those players are from Queensland so again it's rich to play the 'we need academies for local talent' card when you are targeting players from outside your home state.

 

[longdonkey]

How is father/sons rule a rort?

It is such a luck of the draw thing and there is no predictably about it, but to suggest that certain clubs are benefiting is just fanciful.

It’s not like the Lions have any father sons on the horizon and I have no issue with any club that would ever benefit provided they pay a fair price.

Father/Son was a rort for the past 25 years because only Melbourne based clubs were able to benefit from father/son picks. Even now Will McCabe gets father/son by Hawthorn despite the fact he has lived in SA virtually his entire life and went through SA state teams. So not only do they recruit his Dad Luke from SA they then get access to his son the next generation.
Meanwhile for the first 20 years of Port in the AFL we had one father/son who wasn't actually eligible, but nobody bothered to check because he was a son of a 400 game player.
Now that all clubs are in theory on a level playing field, the AFL change the rules and you have to pay more and now they want to phase it out.

 

[longdonkey]

In my opinion I think clubs should nominate the academy and father/son players prior to the the trade period and draft. They should then be classified into a Tier.

Each tier then has a points value that is taken from their picks. That means the clubs have the option to pick up the players they develop but they also pay for those players with their draft picks and don't have the option of trading out draft picks.

 

[briztoon]

Having access from Rd 2 onwards will still make it worth while for academies and still provide Northern clubs an advantage, Remember, you get all kids, not just NGA's to pick from.

But we don't. There are 16 NRL clubs, and 3 Union club up here, that have the majority of kids here in their pathways. As well as basketball. AFL just isn't attractive to most kids.

It's only played in 20 schools in QLD, as an alternative Summer sport, so it doesn't clash with the winter rugby codes.

Freo has had access from pick 40 for years, they still run and fund the programs with around a 1/3 of the distribution of the Northern clubs.

 

[briztoon]

You fund nothing. It's like a billionaire's adult kid complaining that they are funding a holiday when it just comes straight from Dad's allowance and it's a holiday.

I just think the elite programs should be open to all kids in all states. Not just the Northern ones or ones that qualify for NGA. Access can remain with the rules and they should move to have the same rules for all clubs eventually or restricted by ladder position.

But there are elite talent pathways in every state. The Coates talent league clubs are stronger than northern academy clubs. We are only just competitive with them when all their private school kids are off playing private school footy.

SA and WA have their Futures and Colts programs, that feed the best kids in to senior footy in the local leagues. These leagues are stronger than our academies.

 

[Yoda_]

NGA and academy are the same. The only difference is we have to fund and run the academies whereas all you have to do with the NGA is an ancestry test.

this is a really simple and naive thing to post mate.

Essendon is one of the most active in this space of the Melbourne clubs. We bring in the Essendon NGA's over most holidays, have programs both football and non football related and constantly help with the integration of these kids into more traditional football pathways. We recently held a try football day for 12 - 15 year olds that had over 150 register and attend.

Ive had it on good authority a team like St.Kilda does not offer as much and it shows despite them having more NGA's than any Melbourne based club (five I believe, Jack Peris, Josiah Kyle, Marcus Windhager, Mitchito Owens, Angus McLennan with two more going to other clubs, Cam McKenzie > Hawthorn, Bigoa Nguyon > Richmond).

So whilst you may think it's simply "an ancestry test", it's not. If you want the real root, it's having U18 programs in the elite football competition hidden under the banner of growing the game and then hand picking the best of the best each year.

Ifgrowing the game was the real intent, introducing Northern kids to Carlton, or Collingwood, or hell, Essendon then following what established football clubs would broaden the horizon of simply playing in my home state.

 

[Yoda_]

But no problem having David Rodan's kids in your Academy right?

blame the system not the clubs mate

 

[Elixuh]

this is a really simple and naive thing to post mate.

Essendon is one of the most active in this space of the Melbourne clubs. We bring in the Essendon NGA's over most holidays, have programs both football and non football related and constantly help with the integration of these kids into more traditional football pathways. We recently held a try football day for 12 - 15 year olds that had over 150 register and attend.

Ive had it on good authority a team like St.Kilda does not offer as much and it shows despite them having more NGA's than any Melbourne based club (five I believe, Jack Peris, Josiah Kyle, Marcus Windhager, Mitchito Owens, Angus McLennan with two more going to other clubs, Cam McKenzie > Hawthorn, Bigoa Nguyon > Richmond).

So whilst you may think it's simply "an ancestry test", it's not. If you want the real root, it's having U18 programs in the elite football competition hidden under the banner of growing the game and then hand picking the best of the best each year.

Ifgrowing the game was the real intent, introducing Northern kids to Carlton, or Collingwood, or hell, Essendon then following what established football clubs would broaden the horizon of simply playing in my home state.

The whole reason ngas went away was because clubs put zero resources into it and were just doing ancestry.com tests

 

[Yoda_]

The whole reason ngas went away was because clubs put zero resources into it and were just doing ancestry.com tests

I can tell you Essendon was not one. Even if they were, they are actually putting in now

 

[Elixuh]

I can tell you Essendon was not one. Even if they were, they are actually putting in now

Cool beans

 

[briztoon]

A number of reasons.

There were only 3 teams to hit $30m+; Brisbane, Gold Coast and GWS. Sydney were 6th with $24m.

It's spurious to play the 'we fund the academies' card when you have your hand deep inside the cookie jar. Average distribution per club outside NSW and Qld is $21m. Inside it's $31m.

Why are clubs funded?

Because most clubs income doesn't cover their expenditure.

Why do QLD clubs receive $31m?

It pays for the player TPP and off field soft cap. It also pays for our use of the local stadiums, owned by Stadiums QLD. Last I heard, a couple of years ago, it cost the Lions $1m per game to play at the Gabba. Payable to the QLD government via Stadiums QLD.


Another reason why northern clubs receive higher distributions.

We don't have as high membership numbers, pumping money in to our clubs. You know, because AFL isn't as popular here, isn't played by as many families and kids. Which is why fewer kids get drafted out of the northern states than Vic, WA or SA.


Where does the AFL distribution money come from?

The media rights deal.

It sure as **** is not coming out of Freo's or West Coasts pockets, so I don't know why you have your panties in a knot over the AFL's distribution.

 

[Elixuh]

Why are clubs funded?

Because most clubs income doesn't cover their expenditure.

Why do QLD clubs receive $31m?

It pays for the player TPP and off field soft cap. It also pays for our use of the local stadiums, owned by Stadiums QLD. Last I heard, a couple of years ago, it cost the Lions $1m per game to play at the Gabba. Payable to the QLD government via Stadiums QLD.


Another reason why northern clubs receive higher distributions.

We don't have as high membership numbers, pumping money in to our clubs. You know, because AFL isn't as popular here, isn't played by as many families and kids. Which is why fewer kids get drafted out of the northern states than Vic, WA or SA.


Where does the AFL distribution money come from?

The media rights deal.

It sure as **** is not coming out of Freo's or West Coasts pockets, so I don't know why you have your panties in a knot over the AFL's distribution.