News AFL overhauls Academy and FS bid matching, discussing draft lockout

[Purple Suit]

Yeah, this narrative is total b.s.

What academy kids were added before our 3 father sons?

Jack Payne, who we selected with our own natural pick in the 50’s in 2017.

Kiddy Coleman, who went undrafted in his actual draft year of 2018, retuned as an overage academy member in 2019 and was bid on late second round.

Hipwood was drafted in 2015, and Andrews was a third round bid in 2014.

Sam Marshall was the same draft as Levi Ashcroft, and was bid on at pick 25.

And Ty Gallop was a third round bid last year.

Until this year, we’ve had **** all high academy players.

In terms of high end, first round academy selections, the Lions academy has been the worst performed of all the northern academies.

I didn’t say any were added before, just that you are getting both F/S and academies. It has allowed you to chase good recruits the whole way through and add talent for unders. No matter where they are chosen, it’s at a Significant discount.

 

[JasRulz63]

Yeah, this narrative is total b.s.

What academy kids were added before our 3 father sons?

Jack Payne, who we selected with our own natural pick in the 50’s in 2017.

Kiddy Coleman, who went undrafted in his actual draft year of 2018, retuned as an overage academy member in 2019 and was bid on late second round.

Hipwood was drafted in 2015, and Andrews was a third round bid in 2014.

Sam Marshall was the same draft as Levi Ashcroft, and was bid on at pick 25.

And Ty Gallop was a third round bid last year.

Until this year, we’ve had **** all high academy players.

In terms of high end, first round academy selections, the Lions academy has been the worst performed of all the northern academies.

It'll probably change with Annable, but right now, Freo have had a higher pick out of their academy (Liam Henry with pick 9), than Brisbane has had (Hipwood with pick 14).

 

[briztoon]

The pattern longer term doesn’t suggest that at all.

Prior to Daicos and Darcy the father sons weren’t that great in prior years but of course you ignore that

You also seem to be misunderstanding my point regarding Daicos. The Pies finished third last that year. They traded away said pick knowing they had Daicos. But if father son didn’t exist they still would have got Callaghan or JHF, so it’s a rubbish example of the rich getting richer. advocating the bottom 4 teams just continually get preference over a team that has a bad year is even more rubbish.

So a team like North gets all pick preference for being shockingly run whilst a team like Richmond has to wait multiple years before getting first access? What kind of BS is that?

This is a great point, as it applies to Gold Coast as well.

Prior to this year Gold Coast hasn’t had a sniff of finals.

They have been continual raided of talent from the Vic teams, and have received multiple first round picks back.

Instead of using those picks at the draft on more interstate kids, they pushed those picks in to drafts where they had academy kids.

Yes, they traded their high picks back for points, but that’s how the system was designed, and smart list management teams at other clubs took advantage of this, by trading for the high picks GC was auctioning off.

GC always had the high end picks to draft their kids, but other teams also benefited from trading up for those picks.

 

[MPMonkeys]

The pattern longer term doesn’t suggest that at all.

Prior to Daicos and Darcy the father sons weren’t that great in prior years but of course you ignore that

You also seem to be misunderstanding my point regarding Daicos. The Pies finished third last that year. They traded away said pick knowing they had Daicos. But if father son didn’t exist they still would have got Callaghan or JHF, so it’s a rubbish example of the rich getting richer. advocating the bottom 4 teams just continually get preference over a team that has a bad year is even more rubbish.

So a team like North gets all pick preference for being shockingly run whilst a team like Richmond has to wait multiple years before getting first access? What kind of BS is that?

Ablett Jnr
Hawkins
Scarlett
Jobe Watson
Fletcher
Silvagni\
Waite
Joe Daniher
Heath Shaw
Jonathan Brown
Waite
Bowden
Cloke brothers

 

[PortAdelFC1997]

Clubs should be able to bid on any F/S, Academy and NGA prospects at any point in the draft. That shouldn’t change. No point in investing NGA or northern academies if clubs can’t reap the fruits of their labor.

However, I believe there shouldn’t be discounts and having first access is enough. Make clubs pay the full price to match the bid or add a bidding tax e.g a bid from picks 1-5 pays an additional 20% on top of the pick the player has been bid on, 15% for picks 6-10, 10% for the rest of the 1st rounders, 5% for 2nd rounders and 0% from 3rd round onwards.

Also clubs can’t go into deficits. If a club is short of the required amount for example 10 points needed to match the bid and the club can’t get those remaining 10 points to successfully match the bid, well bad luck then.

 

[briztoon]

I didn’t say any were added before, just that you are getting both F/S and academies. It has allowed you to chase good recruits the whole way through and add talent for unders. No matter where they are chosen, it’s at a Significant discount.

Again much of your reasoning is incorrect, we added the likes of Charlie Cameron (2017) and Neale (2018), well before we lucked in to Ashcroft and Fletcher in 2022.

We traded for both Cameron and Neale.

The first round pick we used to trade in Cameron came from Port, which was part of a three team trade in 2016, when we traded out Pearce Hanley.

Neale cost us our 2 first round picks in 2018 and 2019.

There was no double dipping for academy talent in those drafts.

It’s been smart list management.

The system has had advantages in it for all teams.

Daniher was a free agent, every team had their chance to sell their club to him.

Yes, we got Dunkley the same year as Ashcroft and Fletcher, but we had pushed picks from 2021 in to 2022 to help achieve this, as well as trading our future first and second round picks from 2023 back in to 2022.

We lost Dan McStay in free agency and received a second round pick as compensation, and traded Tom Berry for a second round pick.

I’m not saying we lost out, but it “cost us” two first round picks, four second round picks, and a couple of players, as well as multiple 3rd and 4th round picks across 3 drafts to get Dunkley, Ashcroft and Fletcher.

Smart list management teams, like those from the Bulldogs and Melbourne, have used it to accrue multiple later picks to trade up for high picks from the Gold Coast.

 

[bluebaggerjuls]

Clubs should be able to bid on any F/S, Academy and NGA prospects at any point in the draft. That shouldn’t change. No point in investing NGA or northern academies if clubs can’t reap the fruits of their labor.

However, I believe there shouldn’t be discounts and having first access is enough. Make clubs pay the full price to match the bid or add a bidding tax e.g a bid from picks 1-5 pays an additional 20% on top of the pick the player has been bid on, 15% for picks 6-10, 10% for the rest of the 1st rounders, 5% for 2nd rounders and 0% from 3rd round onwards.

Also clubs can’t go into deficits. If a club is short of the required amount for example 10 points needed to match the bid and the club can’t get those remaining 10 points to successfully match the bid, well bad luck then.

If your a top 4 team a top 5 bid should effectively be wiping 2 years worth of draft picks.

 

[Bestbird]

If your a top 4 team a top 5 bid should effectively be wiping 2 years worth of draft picks.

The obvious issue was that DVI was so out of whack with reality for years, yet the AFL sat on it. Was pretty obvious given all the 3rd round pick farming

The discount never made any sense

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Again much of your reasoning is incorrect, we added the likes of Charlie Cameron (2017) and Neale (2018), well before we lucked in to Ashcroft and Fletcher in 2022.

We traded for both Cameron and Neale.

The first round pick we used to trade in Cameron came from Port, which was part of a three team trade in 2016, when we traded out Pearce Hanley.

Neale cost us our 2 first round picks in 2018 and 2019.

There was no double dipping for academy talent in those drafts.

It’s been smart list management.

The system has had advantages in it for all teams.

Daniher was a free agent, every team had their chance to sell their club to him.

Yes, we got Dunkley the same year as Ashcroft and Fletcher, but we had pushed picks from 2021 in to 2022 to help achieve this, as well as trading our future first and second round picks from 2023 back in to 2022.

We lost Dan McStay in free agency and received a second round pick as compensation, and traded Tom Berry for a second round pick.

I’m not saying we lost out, but it “cost us” two first round picks, four second round picks, and a couple of players, as well as multiple 3rd and 4th round picks across 3 drafts to get Dunkley, Ashcroft and Fletcher.

Smart list management teams, like those from the Bulldogs and Melbourne, have used it to accrue multiple later picks to trade up for high picks from the Gold Coast.

You shouldnt have been able to get all of Dunkley, Ashcroft and Fletcher for that price, that's the whole problem. Those first round picks are like 20+, it should have cost you all those picks basically for just Ashcroft.

It was good list management made possible by the unbelievable leg up that is the points system for contending teams. The advantages of the system are overwhemingly weighted to contending teams which is why the gap between bottom and top is widening so much.

The draft is supposed to be a leveler helping bottom teams get elite talent to catch up the top teams who have to pay more for trading elite talent in. Instead, contending teams are getting continued access access to elite young talent while contending. When the FA's overwhelmingly go to contending teams (by design) as well (also overwhelmingly Vic historically) it makes it very hard to rebuilding teams to get out off the bottom which is why we are in the situation we are in where there is such a gap between good and bad.

I'm fine with blocking off the first round for points bids, at the very least the top 10 of the draft should be barred for bidding for top 4 teams IMO, or, the cost made so exorbitant that actual hard decisions need to be made. It should be physically impossible to get Dunkley and Ashcroft in the same year as a top 4 team.

I say this knowing its going to be 15 years until the current inequalities naturally filter out.

 

[Dogflogger]

So much agree on the compensation picks for F/A. No system where it’s better to LOSE a player than keep them is a good one. The ability to not have a certain contract on your books is the compensation that’s enough.

I mean I hate picking on North or WCE and boy I don’t blame them but on what planet are either MCKay/Allen worth top 3 picks! It’s insane.

what happens to a team under those no compensation rules if they continually leak players while being unable to trade players in?

 

[Dogflogger]

The AFL rules didn't allow us to take Academy kids from Adelaide metro. Another AFL rule that only applies to us and Adelaide Crows. Keeler was Adelaide Crows Academy. Kossie Pickett was Port Academy, Wayne Milera was Port Academy. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera was Adelaide Crows Academy then Port Academy, Tyson Stengle was Port Academy.

The AFL are apparently changing the rule next year just as they are about to pull access to the first round.

If I'm salty about anything its while other clubs fill their boots with NGA talent all we have to show out of that list is Lachie Jones.

If northern teams or Collingwood dont have academy players coming through they change the rules for those years, its why a bunch of teams that AFL cares nothing for have lost academy players in the first round. I'm sure Melbourne would have loved mac andrews and it was only crazy luck that we have been able to draft any of our own academy players at all considering they were able to be drafted by anyone in the first round. Basically if you are not in a growth zone for the AFL or have 100k members than your team go can fk itself.

 

[Miller1971]

To say it happens continually is not quite right.

It's merely a cooincidence that Ashcroft x 2 and Fletcher came along right in the middle of the Lions Premiership window. In fact, arguably 2 of them took them from contender to Premiers. Getting F/S access can happen at any time in the cycle and its pure chance.

Collingwood got Nick Daicos after finishing 17th, but even then it was just a cooincidence as it was 1 out of 8 years or something they didn't play finals.

Calsher Dear came along when Hawks were near the bottom, so did the reasonably highly rated Will McCabe

not to mention, and this is true for many clubs and will soon be true for the Demons when they waste a spot on White, for every Daicos or Moore there has been 2 x Browns, a Barham, Brayden Shaw, Kelly etc.


They have already drastically altered the system for this year for the better, so it will be good to see how it plays out.

NGA's have to go though, absolutely ridiculous! (and I am a Saints man)

 

[Dogflogger]

To say it happens continually is not quite right.

It's merely a cooincidence that Ashcroft x 2 and Fletcher came along right in the middle of the Lions Premiership window. In fact, arguably 2 of them took them from contender to Premiers. Getting F/S access can happen at any time in the cycle and its pure chance.

Collingwood got Nick Daicos after finishing 17th, but even then it was just a cooincidence as it was 1 out of 8 years or something they didn't play finals.

Calsher Dear came along when Hawks were near the bottom, so did the reasonably highly rated Will McCabe

not to mention, and this is true for many clubs and will soon be true for the Demons when they waste a spot on White, for every Daicos or Moore there has been 2 x Browns, a Barham, Brayden Shaw, Kelly etc.


They have already drastically altered the system for this year for the better, so it will be good to see how it plays out.

NGA's have to go though, absolutely ridiculous! (and I am a Saints man)

Collingwood have drafted something like 16 father sons in 33 years. basically one ever 2 years. granted most of them aren't going to be superstars but I wonder if you asked the list manager at Collingwood if he would prefer discounted and loyal draftees every 2 years or if he would prefer to draft normally which one he'd choose.

 

[MPMonkeys]

To say it happens continually is not quite right.

It's merely a cooincidence that Ashcroft x 2 and Fletcher came along right in the middle of the Lions Premiership window. In fact, arguably 2 of them took them from contender to Premiers. Getting F/S access can happen at any time in the cycle and its pure chance.

Collingwood got Nick Daicos after finishing 17th, but even then it was just a cooincidence as it was 1 out of 8 years or something they didn't play finals.

Calsher Dear came along when Hawks were near the bottom, so did the reasonably highly rated Will McCabe

not to mention, and this is true for many clubs and will soon be true for the Demons when they waste a spot on White, for every Daicos or Moore there has been 2 x Browns, a Barham, Brayden Shaw, Kelly etc.


They have already drastically altered the system for this year for the better, so it will be good to see how it plays out.

NGA's have to go though, absolutely ridiculous! (and I am a Saints man)

I wouldn't say they have 'drastically' altered the system. There have been some tweaks to the points and the discount has gone from 20% to 10% but thats it really.

Drastic change would be just to remove bidding completely and make it a natural draft.

 

[Elixuh]

I wouldn't say they have 'drastically' altered the system. There have been some tweaks to the points and the discount has gone from 20% to 10% but thats it really.

Drastic change would be just to remove bidding completely and make it a natural draft.

I know vfl clubs love the idea of a ‘natural draft’ where every year prospects are telling interstate clubs not to draft them, but it’s too unequal.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

what happens to a team under those no compensation rules if they continually leak players while being unable to trade players in?

They get better internally it’s not that hard

 

[MPMonkeys]

I know vfl clubs love the idea of a ‘natural draft’ where every year prospects are telling interstate clubs not to draft them, but it’s too unequal.

It very, very rarely happens these days.
I doubt if any non Victorian clubs take any notice of it to be honest. The club holds the whip hand at the end of the day. No draftee is going to sit out of football for three years because an interstate club drafted him.

 

[Elixuh]

It very, very rarely happens these days.
I doubt if any non Victorian clubs take any notice of it to be honest. The club holds the whip hand at the end of the day. No draftee is going to sit out of football for three years because an interstate club drafted him.

It happens almost every year.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

It very, very rarely happens these days.
I doubt if any non Victorian clubs take any notice of it to be honest. The club holds the whip hand at the end of the day. No draftee is going to sit out of football for three years because an interstate club drafted him.

Archie Perkins from your side literally did what you said.

 

[Dogflogger]

They get better internally it’s not that hard

Are you saying not getting compensation makes them better internally or do you mean you have to be a well run club to get trade targets that aren't about to retire or to keep your draftees?

 

[MPMonkeys]

Archie Perkins from your side literally did what you said.

I said it very, very rarely happens. That is only one example from about 1000 draftees which indicates that it is indeed rare.
And hypothetically if Brisbane or Port Adelaide or Fremantle drafted him, do you really think he would have stood out of football for three years?

 

[mpal6]

I said it very, very rarely happens. That is only one example from about 1000 draftees which indicates that it is indeed rare.
And hypothetically if Brisbane or Port Adelaide or Fremantle drafted him, do you really think he would have stood out of football for three years?

Archie Perkins
Elliott Kavanagh
Bailey Smith
Marc Murphy
Josh Dunkley when he was drafted

This is just remembering names from draft time and not even searching
It's not as rare as you've stated.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I said it very, very rarely happens. That is only one example from about 1000 draftees which indicates that it is indeed rare.
And hypothetically if Brisbane or Port Adelaide or Fremantle drafted him, do you really think he would have stood out of football for three years?

It shouldn’t happen at all, and that’s why there’s a need for academies as vic players can just do this rubbish

 

[Obeanie1]

AFL clubs are non profit organisations. What does it mater how much those distributions are, as they are basically the AFL handing out the funding to run each team, and that money comes from the media and sponsorship deals the AFL has, not the individual clubs. It's not like your club is actually paying money from it's own pockets to keep another club afloat. The alternative is the AFL could go back to being the VFL, then neither your club or mine would exist. Or we could have a league wide revenue sharing model, where all club profits go in to one big pot, then divided equally between each club, after all running costs are covered.

So if the AFL didn't need to fund Northern clubs and academies where would the money go?

To the remaining clubs.

And they would spend the extra money developing junior talent in their state.

Not QLD or NSW.

You come up with some bizarre arguments.

BIZARRE.

With a fair amount of self interest.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Are you saying not getting compensation makes them better internally or do you mean you have to be a well run club to get trade targets that aren't about to retire or to keep your draftees?

There’s just no need for compensation it’s enough getting a guy off your books that’s your compensation