News AFL overhauls Academy and FS bid matching, discussing draft lockout

[enoenoeno]

It's 2025 and we're still seeing this outdated insult.

Be better.

A good licking with that wooden spoon of yours will surely sort me out

 

[Scotland]

What is the reasoning that people in NSW/Qld have that without say a Swans academy Isaac Heeney

5

Isaac Heeney

Age

29

Ht

185cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.2

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

7.7

5star

M

4.9

5star

T

4.1

5star

CL

2.2

4star

D

14.3

3star

K

8.8

4star

HB

5.5

3star

M

4.8

4star

T

2.5

3star

CL

0.8

3star

D

10.4

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.4

4star

CL

0.8

3star

won't play footy and without the ability for players to bypass the draft order there won't be academies?

Pretty sure everyone knows that footy isn't the #1 code in those states but plenty of people still play it. Elite talents like Nick Riewoldt and Wayne Carey didn't fall out of the sky.

I don't care about the NRL (where most of the teams are in NSW so that's where a lot of the Queenslanders are) but I follow rugby and players move all over the place. Tupou has played for Reds, Rebels, Waratahs. Kellaway Rebels, Waratahs. O'Connor went from the Force to the Rebels to Ireland, France, England then back to the Reds, then Reds again and now plays for the Crusaders in NZ. Etc.

 

[Elixuh]

What is the reasoning that people in NSW/Qld have that without say a Swans academy Isaac Heeney won't play footy and without the ability for players to bypass the draft order there won't be academies?

Pretty sure everyone knows that footy isn't the #1 code in those states but plenty of people still play it. Elite talents like Nick Riewoldt and Wayne Carey didn't fall out of the sky.

I don't care about the NRL (where most of the teams are in NSW so that's where a lot of the Queenslanders are) but I follow rugby and players move all over the place. Tupou has played for Reds, Rebels, Waratahs. Kellaway Rebels, Waratahs. O'Connor went from the Force to the Rebels to Ireland, France, England then back to the Reds, then Reds again and now plays for the Crusaders in NZ. Etc.

You could have picked a few other players other than Heeney to make this point. Heeney is one of the best examples of someone who grew up in NRL heartland and played league and would have been funnelled into an NRL talent pathway if the Swans academy didn’t exist.

 

[hammer180]

This is obviously a deeply flawed argument.

The notion that a club can’t or don’t plan for a F/S prior to official commitment is absurd.

Most F/S don’t nominate officially until late in their draft year.

The Camporeale twins nominated Carlton in October last year, less than a month before the draft.

And you’re going to tell us you think Carlton wouldn’t have planned for their arrival prior to that?

Come on now.

Could make the same argument that Richmond have planned for his arrival as well, hence the reason it's a very relevant argument, id actually agree with you if he was purely fatherson but having a choice of both changes it.
The bit that you have missed in the argument is because he was linked to both teams he could have chosen either, due to this if either team prepares for him in previous drafts and he picks the other team you are stuck with your drafthand now, if they were to lock the first round out it's the same effect picks wise as if he chose the other team.
If it was only academy or fatherson tied then yes I would 100% agree with you based on the rules would have been in preparation for it however because he was linked to both teams the net effect of the team he chooses with rule changes meaning they miss out on him would be the exact same as the current rules but he chose the other team.

 

[Dockeroo]

Vic clubs are getting access to all the players and the added bonus of putting chequebooks and boats in front of players to move.

They will come up with a compromise that’s across all 3 forms, the Swann has literally said that- whatever change it will be across the board. That’s fair and it’s fine.

What that is is who knows what, a lockout maybe? I doubt they go a whole round that’s opening a can of worms but top 3/5 go for it.

The other option was weirdly an idea that Jimmy Bartel said, give every side two first rounders each year but I’m not sure what that actually does

I thought Jimmy Bartel was a somewhat smart dude?
Maybe we can go further and have 18 teams in the finals too

 

[Jeremias]

Could make the same argument that Richmond have planned for his arrival as well, hence the reason it's a very relevant argument, id actually agree with you if he was purely fatherson but having a choice of both changes it.

Not really. Despite being eligible to join both clubs, Walker was always seen as most likely to choose Carlton.

Clubs make certain decisions with likely F/S and academy arrivals in mind, though they will always leave themselves room to pivot.

 

[hammer180]

Not really. Despite being eligible to join both clubs, Walker was always seen as most likely to choose Carlton.

Clubs make certain decisions with likely F/S and academy arrivals in mind, though they will always leave themselves room to pivot.

The most likely part is the effect on it though, let's say he picked richmond that's when you pivot from it and then it would be the same result as him picking you and then them changing the rules.

 

[Scotland]

You could have picked a few other players other than Heeney to make this point. Heeney is one of the best examples of someone who grew up in NRL heartland and played league and would have been funnelled into an NRL talent pathway if the Swans academy didn’t exist.

You could've answered the question.

Plenty of players play multiple sports as kids. NSW/Qld in particular is rife with players switching rugby codes. I like Heeney. Good player, seems like a good guy. But if he played rugby league instead of footy life would go on. Dustin Martin (whose father was from NZ and likely into rugby on that basis) moved to Sydney as a teenager for a few years and kept playing footy.

Tom Williams, David Hale, Nick Riewoldt, both McVeighs, Justin Koschitzke, Ben Fixter were all top 10 picks in the late 90s/early 2000s. Lenny Hayes was 11. Tom Hawkins would've been under current F/S rules. The return on investment doesn't seem to be more elite talent, just more players ending up at designated clubs.

 

[Elixuh]

You could've answered the question.

Plenty of players play multiple sports as kids. NSW/Qld in particular is rife with players switching rugby codes. I like Heeney. Good player, seems like a good guy. But if he played rugby league instead of footy life would go on. Dustin Martin (whose father was from NZ and likely into rugby on that basis) moved to Sydney as a teenager for a few years and kept playing footy.

Tom Williams, David Hale, Nick Riewoldt, both McVeighs, Justin Koschitzke, Ben Fixter were all top 10 picks in the late 90s/early 2000s. Lenny Hayes was 11. Tom Hawkins would've been under current F/S rules. The return on investment doesn't seem to be more elite talent, just more players ending up at designated clubs.

Do you think it’s coincidence that since academies were instituted the talent levels out of NSW and Qld has drastically increased? Or do you think this talent didn’t exist pre-academies?

We’ve been through the list it’s like less than 1 draftee from Qld on average for the 30 odds years prior to academies.

 

[hammer180]

How many academies are there in total?
Wouldn't the easy solution to all this instead of having AFL running them have all clubs running them together, if it is for the betterment of the game?

 

[Elixuh]

How many academies are there in total?
Wouldn't the easy solution to all this instead of having AFL running them have all clubs running them together, if it is for the betterment of the game?

Do you think VFL clubs will want to spend their own resources developing talent in Qld and NSW which has the likelihood of benefiting Qld and NSW clubs, eg players not wanting to be drafted out of Qld, gone home factor etc?

 

[hammer180]

Do you think VFL clubs will want to spend their own resources developing talent in Qld and NSW which has the likelihood of benefiting Qld and NSW clubs, eg players not wanting to be drafted out of Qld, gone home factor etc?

It's not just northern states, it can be all encompassing, nga as well, i think if the talent is there and can be identified, all the teams representatives build relationships with the player then yes of course.
Clubs have scouting teams all over the country.

 

[Adnico26Parker]

You could've answered the question.

Plenty of players play multiple sports as kids. NSW/Qld in particular is rife with players switching rugby codes. I like Heeney. Good player, seems like a good guy. But if he played rugby league instead of footy life would go on. Dustin Martin (whose father was from NZ and likely into rugby on that basis) moved to Sydney as a teenager for a few years and kept playing footy.

Tom Williams, David Hale, Nick Riewoldt, both McVeighs, Justin Koschitzke, Ben Fixter were all top 10 picks in the late 90s/early 2000s. Lenny Hayes was 11. Tom Hawkins would've been under current F/S rules. The return on investment doesn't seem to be more elite talent, just more players ending up at designated clubs.

He's said himself numerous times that without the academy, he would have never picked up an Sherrin, and would have played NRL for the Knights.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Wat.

There are 18 clubs, there are 18 picks in each round. That's how it works. If WC get 1 and 19, Richmond get 2 and 20 etc. then it's just two rounds.

Are we going to make it WC 1, 2 Richmond 3, 4 North 5, 6 etc? Can't see the Bulldogs in 10th being happy with picks 19 and 20 let alone the eventual premier with 35 and 36.

I actually don't mind it. I think it's too extreme the other way though - rewards 'tanking' games too much. No-one is going to tank their way out of finals...so make that the cut-off.

Maybe a 'priority' round for teams that didn't make finals would be a better compromise.

ie:

Priority 18,17,16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9
Rd.1 18,17......9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1

Means wooden spooner gets picks 1 AND 11, with the Premier not getting a pick until 28.
9th gets picks 10 and 20, whilst 8th but only get pick 21.

 

[sydney_gws]

You could have picked a few other players other than Heeney to make this point. Heeney is one of the best examples of someone who grew up in NRL heartland and played league and would have been funnelled into an NRL talent pathway if the Swans academy didn’t exist.

He is one player. His body shape is not suited to league. Maybe he would have played soccer and help Australia win at the world cup like Tim Cahill did.

 

[briztoon]

So now that QLD has more players being recruited than WA, do Freo and Egirls get special academy access?

Which draft has QLD produced more drafted kids than WA?

To date, the 2023 draft has had the most QLD'ers drafted, with 5. There were 10 WA kids drafted that year.

But as I said on the West Coast board, if the WA clubs funded their NGA academies properly, they'd soon become the most successful academies in the country.

The whole system is broken. How can Brisbane, win the premiership, then score a top draftee

That top draftee was a father son, not academy kid. So was his brother. And the other kid as well.

We did get one academy kid bid on in the 20's though.

at a discount plus another in top 20, be contending again this year whilst pulling the bottom teams captain and other high profile players??

Your Captains' agent came to us last October when your club offered him a peanuts contract. That's squarely on your club playing the compensation pick gravy train.

How can GC have 21 first round draft picks in their squad,

Because the AFL gave them a compensation package when they were being raided year on year by Vic clubs stealing their expansion draftees.

be challenging for a GF spot, and have 3 top 10 picks in addtion

Currently GC have two (2) kids rated in the top 10 of most draft boards

to the rest of the pre-listed concessions etc they get on top of it.

The AFL have already removed all of Gold Coasts concessions from their assistance package.

Time for the AFL to actually AFL, and stop being reactive to every club that sinks,

I mean, I could agree. When would you like the AFL to start? before or after West Coast get some form of assistance?

club that feels hard done by due to their own poor management / performance, or whim of their Victorian bias. We are a national comp, with the only real equalization method being the draft - which has been corrupted

 

[briztoon]

Surely that is a better start than 40.46.48,49 etc ...

It also means that those clubs in between are less disadvantaged, than every time a QLD /NSW /FS gets to jump up the order and push everyone else back

Why didn't you mention NGA?

You're club has had one of those bid on in the top 10 before, right?

 

[VDS66]

Have we fixed it yet?

Want to grow the talent pool in the northern states? Great. Let the AFL fund the talent paths.

Worried about interstate player retention? Awesome, get your house in order and build a successful culture.

Want access to locals? Ok. Pay up based on what they are worth. Simple. No discounts, no getting Ferraris for a handful of MG3's. If you have 2 prospects in nay given year, plan ahead and make sure you have the picks required.

Father-son? Ok, no problems. It's the luck of the draw. But once again, pay fair value based on their talent.

A northern academy player drafted to a Vic club is likely to want to go home as much as anyone from SA and WA.

A local GC kid might want to play in front of big crowds on the G as much as anyone else and request a trade.

Everything else is posturing. It's really not that hard.

The draft and salary cap are the two main equalisation methods. The former is now totally corrupted with all the compromises. You may as well go back to the old zone system because as it stands, northern clubs essentially have their zones, whilst other clubs have to take their chances in a compromised draft pools.

Time to end the farce. Kids nominate in the draft knowing they can drafted anywhere, so they can suck it up. The notion that a kid will only take up AFL because he will play for his local club is absurd.

NGA's - fix them for purpose or get rid of them. Total joke. And yes we have grabbed few, but why would we pass them up on principle if everyone else is happy to exploit them?

And in case you're wondering, my whinging Saints stand to miss out on a few sons of guns named Dal Santo, Hayes and Reiwoldt. And we haven't gone cap in hand begging for draft concessions and priority picks because of our **** ups.

 

[briztoon]

Id love to read on here with the knowledge from those that have been involved, some greater context in detail on what it is exactly that a prospective junior receives when they come through the pathways via F/S, NGA or Academy? I assume all 3 are not equal and don't provide the same with regards to benefits, opportunities and exposure.

It is however obvious that a kid that is coming through one of these 3 lines, has far greater opportunities afforded to them than say a kid that isn't. Probably even more so if a kid is based regionally or impacted by lengthy travel distances.

Yup, Gold Coasts academy zone covers an area 5 times the size of Victoria, while Brisbane's academy zone covers an area twice the size the state of Victoria.

One of our (Lions) drafted academy kids lived 250km+ from our academy base. Hipwood, Jack Payne and our Sunshine Coast academy kids live 150km+ from our academy.

Even Brisbane metro based kids can face a 90+ minute drive, if they're from the northern suburbs driving to our western suburbs located training base.

Speaking just about the QLD academies, they are broken up in to regional hubs. So even our representative teams don't have the luxury of training together through season.

Of course those based at the AFL teams training base, share the same facilities. But those based in regional training hubs literally make the best of what's available, paying out of their own pocket is it means using a local gym.

At least they don't have to leave home and board like many of Gold Coasts north Queensland and Darwin kids do.

Kids do preseason at their regional hubs, and then towards the end of preseason, the hub teams come together to play a series of games, where the final age group squads are selected. The exception to this, are any National Academy kids, who spend the preseason training with the AFL team, but this done nation wide, so no different to the top kids in WA, SA, Vic, etc.

Once the squads are selected, we play the academy series against the other 3 academy teams, then play a few CTL teams. Then that's it for most of the kids, unless they're selected in the Allies squad for the National Championships.

For Brisbane, those potential draftable kids then join the VFL program.

Therefore they are likely more ahead in terms of their overall development due to these advantages versus than those who aren't afforded that luxury.

The northern academies are supposed to be the equivalent of a CTL team. However Vic kids at APS/AGS schools have better facilities, than any academy kid that's based out of a regional hub.

I also get the opinion that we now think only good footballers can come through these 3 lines and everyone is fighting over them and the system needs a major overhaul rather than methodical tweaks to improve the imbalances.
Whilst clubs are arguing over how compromised the draft has become, maybe clubs need to think outside the box, look outside these 3 streams and get back to work and start identifying more kids or mature agers with high upside or potential that you can pick at your leisure.

These already exist, with Cat B rookies who can come from overseas or other sports, and the Preseason Supplemental Signing period.

 

[briztoon]

And how big is the pool to find them from?

Far bigger than the pool father son and NGA come from.

If you just look at the total Victorian nga pool, that's more than likely more kids, than there are kids playing AFL in QLD or NSW.

AFL is the "national" football code down there played in every school. Every kid has exposure to it. There are 20 public and 12 private schools in QLD that play AFL as a summer sport, so it doesn't interfere with the proper winter football codes up here, Rugby League and Rugby Union.

Go look at the 2021 draft. There were more Victorian father sons drafted than northern academy kids drafted. Similarly, there were more NGA academy kids drafted by St Kilda in the same draft than there were northern academy kids drafted.

Same in 2022, way more father sons drafted than northern academy kids.

2024 there were 3 northern academy kids drafted, 4 father son kids drafted, and 2 NGA academy kids drafted.

Going on drafts to date, father son selections and nga selections outnumber northern academy selections. But everyone is losing their marbles over one draft to date, 2023. And now 2025. They are outlier drafts. But you know Vico's don't like it when an advantage gets flipped on them.

Because we kept getting told how important it is for the retention of players to these clubs.




Different eras.




Well no you haven't.

Your maths is way off if you think northern academies are on the same numerical scale as FS and academies.

As I said in my previous post, that's because Vic clubs don't have the financial incentive to invest in their nga academies, when they can just pull kids out of the CTL and APS schools for little to no investment at all (other than an ancestry.com search).

If your teams actually put the same investment in to your nga academies, you'd start reaping the rewards within 5 years, just like Essendon are starting to.

So that's a way easier path for the northern academies to list young players then compared to FA and NGA.

No games limits, no specific cultural backgrounds required.

There's no way the latter can introduce the same amount of players into an academy system each season when there are zero restrictions for one model.

The whole point of the zero restrictions is to make it easier for kids to play. I don't know what's so hard about that to understand.

I honestly wish our academies could operate under the same rules as the Rugby League and Rugby Union academies up here.

Top kids in the rugby league academies get a yearly signing bonus from the ages of 14/15. $5k to $10k (admittedly I haven't kept up with this since covid, bonuses could be higher now). Get free medical insurance covered by their clubs, get fed in to talent pathway schools or scholarships to private schools. Can sign professional contracts at 17. Don't have to go through a draft, rather it's an open market.

Then we might actually start attracting the truly talented kids up here.

Instead, kids choosing AFL up here know they are sacrificing money to play AFL instead of League.

 

[briztoon]

What is the reasoning that people in NSW/Qld have that without say a Swans academy Isaac Heeney won't play footy and without the ability for players to bypass the draft order there won't be academies?

Heeney has said in multiple interviews that he would have kept on playing rugby league.

From NRL heartland to the SCG: The emergence of the Swans' poster boy

Isaac Heeney always dreamed of playing NRL, but 15 years after Sydney spotted the 12-year-old at a national carnival, he's become a genuine star for the side

www.afl.com.au

Hipwood has said the same. He would have followed his cricket dream. Jack Payne was a national junior discus representative, having already competed overseas for Australia. He was headed for the Olympics.

Both QLD and NSW academies have "lost" kids to rugby league.

Dylan Patterson in this years draft is seen as a big win for AFL up here, because league has really chased him hard.

Pretty sure everyone knows that footy isn't the #1 code in those states but plenty of people still play it. Elite talents like Nick Riewoldt and Wayne Carey didn't fall out of the sky.

I don't care about the NRL (where most of the teams are in NSW so that's where a lot of the Queenslanders are) but I follow rugby and players move all over the place. Tupou has played for Reds, Rebels, Waratahs. Kellaway Rebels, Waratahs. O'Connor went from the Force to the Rebels to Ireland, France, England then back to the Reds, then Reds again and now plays for the Crusaders in NZ. Etc.

 

[briztoon]

You could've answered the question.

Plenty of players play multiple sports as kids. NSW/Qld in particular is rife with players switching rugby codes.

Professional league players switching to union for more money isn't the same as a kid playing multiple sports. Union and League have very, very similar skill sets and body shapes at the professional level.

I like Heeney. Good player, seems like a good guy. But if he played rugby league instead of footy life would go on. Dustin Martin (whose father was from NZ and likely into rugby on that basis) moved to Sydney as a teenager for a few years and kept playing footy.

Tom Williams, David Hale, Nick Riewoldt, both McVeighs, Justin Koschitzke, Ben Fixter were all top 10 picks in the late 90s/early 2000s. Lenny Hayes was 11. Tom Hawkins would've been under current F/S rules. The return on investment doesn't seem to be more elite talent, just more players ending up at designated clubs.

 

[briztoon]

He is one player. His body shape is not suited to league. Maybe he would have played soccer and help Australia win at the world cup like Tim Cahill did.

He 100% has the body build to play full back. Did you ever see Allen Langer or Darren Lockyer.

Actually speaking of Lockyer. Story is he was from an AFL family, but because there were no AFL pathways out where he lived, he played League.

 

[briztoon]

And in case you're wondering, my whinging Saints stand to miss out on a few sons of guns named Dal Santo, Hayes and Reiwoldt.

I just assumed your club had already worked out their kids were pretty average at sports already, and weren't likely to ever make it.

And we haven't gone cap in hand begging for draft concessions and priority picks because of our **** ups.

You haven't been sh!t enough to go begging. Don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing for your chances to win a flag.

 

[I Love Lamb]

I would like to give clubs ability to use 1 first rounder every 3 years for a f/s or academy. (Or even 5 years). That way they still have an avenue to prioritise certain father sons however can’t take the piss.

Most clubs would have an opp at least once every 5 years. And if they don’t they wouldn’t have opposition bringing in 2/3 or 4 in the same period. Clubs would have a view 3-5 years in advance whose coming through to save there 1 for and should know how to prioritise.