Play Nice AFL Womens - General Discussion

[HereIam86]

Random thought 'If the AFL approves an expansion team for Tasmania does that mean an AFLW team as well.'

Yes they would have a AFLW team as well one day if the AFL goes to 20 teams the 20th team would also have a AFLW team. They would want all AFL teams do also have a Women’s team.

 

[FoopyNerd]

Yes they would have a AFLW team as well one day if the AFL goes to 20 teams the 20th team would also have a AFLW team. They would want all AFL teams do also have a Women’s team.

Spot on. New clubs need all the fans they can get so the AFL would be putting these new teams on the backfoot right from the start if they didn't also have an AFLW side like everyone else.

 

[Munga]

The players don't want to play in summer. Unless the AFL totally ignores that, an overlap with the men's is unavoidable.

If the majority of players demand playing when the men play I'll totally accept that decision. But it's not in the best interest of the league. Playing outside the men's season is the best chance to thrive. Not much point to all this if the competition suffers. We have a fledgling competition that has the chance to place the optimal timeframe for it's season and it's survival, and the players who want to play then will follow. It's going arse backwards jeopardising the comp for players who don't want to play at certain times, there are always other players to step into their boots who will. There's absolutely nothing wrong with night games during summer, even more so with shorter quarters. Let's not forget some of the poor Irish players who won't be able to make it for the season, a loss for the league with the skill and personality they bring.

Players aren't fussed about summer, they just don't want to start the comp at that time, which completely makes sense. But maybe they are the minority then:

"No, I'm not a fan of the [January] start time," Erin Phillips said.
"I'd love to see the season start in October, just after the men's competition finishes."
Debbie Lee liked playing in the summer, but with one stipulation.
"I love the game in summer, I think it's great," Lee said.
"What I don't think works is the break across Christmas."

MSN

www.msn.com

Gillon McLachlan thinks there are "probably eight or 10 benefits", which would include capitalising on the following:

• bye weekend before the AFL finals
• more than half the men's teams have already finished their season
• no AFL matches on Sundays in September
• first ~6 weeks of the season at top venues with only a handful of AFL games to schedule around
• public holiday before the grand final
• play through October and November, the quietest months on the Aus sporting calendar
• finals in December, easier to avoid hot weather
• finish before Christmas/New Years--not a player-driven initiative, it's what the whole industry wants

Gil is a salesman here, most of those aren't even benefits hehe.

• bye weekend before the AFL finals (Does he really think the media will be looking anywhere else on the eve of the men's finals? Bonkers.)
• more than half the men's teams have already finished their season (This is a benefit?? The men's comp is still running! As mentioned previously, apparently some clubs don't even share their facilities (or have the capacity to) when the men are in season, good luck to the women trying to use the gyms during pre-season and the first five weeks of their season!)
• no AFL matches on Sundays in September (Like the first point, does he really think the media will be looking anywhere else during the men's finals? Bonkers.)
• first ~6 weeks of the season at top venues with only a handful of AFL games to schedule around (Top venues are great, but are they really necessary with the current crowds? Nope.)
• public holiday before the grand final (And again, does he really think the media will be looking anywhere else on the eve of the GRAND FINAL?! Bonkers.)
• play through October and November, the quietest months on the Aus sporting calendar (Absolutely agree, hooray! So they should be starting at that time, after the men's GF.)
• finals in December, easier to avoid hot weather (So some heat is ok, other heat not so? Right.)
• finish before Christmas/New Years--not a player-driven initiative, it's what the whole industry wants (Industry? Hmmm. Are they shutting down the NTFL now? Too many competitions in the world run across Christmas/New Year for this to even be a thing, even Aussie Rules does.)

Anyway, all good debates. Let's hope the competition not just survives but thrives with whatever they choose.

 

[Teen Wolf]

If the majority of players demand playing when the men play I'll totally accept that decision. But it's not in the best interest of the league. Playing outside the men's season is the best chance to thrive. Not much point to all this if the competition suffers. We have a fledgling competition that has the chance to place the optimal timeframe for it's season and it's survival, and the players who want to play then will follow. It's going arse backwards jeopardising the comp for players who don't want to play at certain times, there are always other players to step into their boots who will. There's absolutely nothing wrong with night games during summer, even more so with shorter quarters. Let's not forget some of the poor Irish players who won't be able to make it for the season, a loss for the league with the skill and personality they bring.

First you complained about the AFL supposedly not listening to the players. Now you say the AFL should make decisions regardless of what the players want. Then you go from claiming players are easily replaceable, to lamenting the "poor Irish" who might not be available in August.

Such contradictions are not in the best interest of the league. And fwiw, the early signs are the Gaelic contingent is increasing this year, and it will feature 2 of the best young talents coming over for the first time.

• bye weekend before the AFL finals (Does he really think the media will be looking anywhere else on the eve of the men's finals? Bonkers.)
• more than half the men's teams have already finished their season (This is a benefit?? The men's comp is still running! As mentioned previously, apparently some clubs don't even share their facilities (or have the capacity to) when the men are in season, good luck to the women trying to use the gyms during pre-season and the first five weeks of their season!)
• no AFL matches on Sundays in September (Like the first point, does he really think the media will be looking anywhere else during the men's finals? Bonkers.)
• first ~6 weeks of the season at top venues with only a handful of AFL games to schedule around (Top venues are great, but are they really necessary with the current crowds? Nope.)
• public holiday before the grand final (And again, does he really think the media will be looking anywhere else on the eve of the GRAND FINAL?! Bonkers.)
• play through October and November, the quietest months on the Aus sporting calendar (Absolutely agree, hooray! So they should be starting at that time, after the men's GF.)
• finals in December, easier to avoid hot weather (So some heat is ok, other heat not so? Right.)
• finish before Christmas/New Years--not a player-driven initiative, it's what the whole industry wants (Industry? Hmmm. Are they shutting down the NTFL now? Too many competitions in the world run across Christmas/New Year for this to even be a thing, even Aussie Rules does.)

The media is first and foremost television. A lot of TV slots for football open up from late August onwards which can be exploited for the start of the AFLW season.

Playing in the top stadiums enables a higher quality of football, which is rather desirable to get the season off to a strong start. And to say 'yeah but AFLW crowds don't fill stadiums' just highlights your narrow vision for the league and inability to see the potential growth opportunities.

Finals = 2 games per weekend, on average. Quite a bit easier to schedule heat-avoiding night matches in that scenario, as opposed to 9 H&A games each round.

The NTFL doesn't depend on a fraction of the resources or media coverage that AFLW does. An absurd comparison.

 

[Munga]

First you complained about the AFL supposedly not listening to the players. Now you say the AFL should make decisions regardless of what the players want. Then you go from claiming players are easily replaceable, to lamenting the "poor Irish" who might not be available in August.

Such contradictions are not in the best interest of the league. And fwiw, the early signs are the Gaelic contingent is increasing this year, and it will feature 2 of the best young talents coming over for the first time.


The media is first and foremost television. A lot of TV slots for football open up from late August onwards which can be exploited for the start of the AFLW season.

Playing in the top stadiums enables a higher quality of football, which is rather desirable to get the season off to a strong start. And to say 'yeah but AFLW crowds don't fill stadiums' just highlights your narrow vision for the league and inability to see the potential growth opportunities.

Finals = 2 games per weekend, on average. Quite a bit easier to schedule heat-avoiding night matches in that scenario, as opposed to 9 H&A games each round.

The NTFL doesn't depend on a fraction of the resources or media coverage that AFLW does. An absurd comparison.

Sheesh, you just want to argue for the sake of it.

I literally quoted senior players wanting to start in October and play in summer, but said if the players are demanding an August start I'll accept it (I.e. the AFL would be listening).

And I also flagged that a suffering women's competition for having to go up against the men won't have to worry about player demands because there won't be a comp worth worrying about! That is not a contradiction, far out. It's like building a layered cake, gotta get the base right first (I.e. the season timeline, then the players). Playing during the AFL season is doomed from the start, gonna struggle.

Awesome news about the Irish players! Last news report I read stated that if the AFLW season starts in August that some will miss out. Happy days here then.

Regarding the media, you're right about the TV slots opening up, but I meant more than just that. Media coverage, reports, promotion etc. I'm sure the AFL will try hard to drive the advertising of the women's league during August and September, but I think it would be mostly pushed aside by the mainstream like most other leagues competing with AFL, especially during finals.

Playing in the top stadiums enables a higher quality of football. Yes, that would be right. But I think whatever the small gains in the quality of football would be weighed down by the embarrassingly empty stadiums as a poor promotion. It's an iffy reason at best to start in August.

I like the debates for the good of the game, but I take umbrage with your next statement. "Your narrow vision for the league and inability to see the potential growth opportunities". Wow. I think I've demonstrated the polar opposite on this forum, all I do here is post about vision and growth haha! But hey, your feedback is noted. FWIW I think you have the blinkers on too, but that's just my view from here.

Yes, 2 games on a weekend are much easier to schedule than 9 at night. This is what might be a bit of a puzzle. As I've mentioned previously, "There can be stacked night matches across Australia, with matches now available each week in each timezone". Even with just Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, I'd have 3 each on Fri + Sat and split the other 3 matches over Thu + Sun as required. East coast, west coast, central and QLD timezones mean it can all be managed fluently each week. Still baffled you think all this is "narrow vision", but you do you.

You're not a fan of my NTFL comment about them being part of the industry? Bizarre. And here you're saying AFLW depends on media coverage, which it will receive precious little of during the AFL finals, that having the AFLW commence in is what you're arguing for.... and I'm the one contradicting myself? As I said, "Too many competitions in the world run across Christmas/New Year for this to even be a thing". Bigger and smaller leagues, competitions, all keep taking the field during this time. Or did you just want to contain your argument to women's competitions? Or just to Australia? Or just an oval ball? Or just the AFL? Everything else is an absurd comparison?? No one wants to work after New Year on the AFLW, is that it?

It's been said by a few posters here, you're quite abrasive with your comments towards others, to put it mildly. As the thread title says, "Play nice", and you're not exactly welcoming. If you start pot shots don't be surprised to have them returned. Debates are fine, but keep the crap personal comments to yourself. You have no idea about other people here.

 

[FoopyNerd]

You're not a fan of my NTFL comment about them being part of the industry? Bizarre. And here you're saying AFLW depends on media coverage, which it will receive precious little of during the AFL finals, that having the AFLW commence in is what you're arguing for.... and I'm the one contradicting myself? As I said, "Too many competitions in the world run across Christmas/New Year for this to even be a thing". Bigger and smaller leagues, competitions, all keep taking the field during this time. Or did you just want to contain your argument to women's competitions? Or just to Australia? Or just an oval ball? Or just the AFL? Everything else is an absurd comparison?? No one wants to work after New Year on the AFLW, is that it?

To be fair the difference as indicated by some coaches/footy bosses in the past is that a lot of AFL clubs have people working in both programs. Hence the most recent season of doing men's Jan 2021 through to late Sept 2021 and then jumping straight into AFLW means they never get a break. That's what I have gathered from the commentary around it at least. How many other leagues are so under-resourced that they have a large portion of their staff working in two programs... probably not a lot.

It's been said by a few posters here, you're quite abrasive with your comments towards others, to put it mildly. As the thread title says, "Play nice", and you're not exactly welcoming. If you start pot shots don't be surprised to have them returned. Debates are fine, but keep the crap personal comments to yourself. You have no idea about other people here.

Spot on.

 

[Munga]

To be fair the difference as indicated by some coaches/footy bosses in the past is that a lot of AFL clubs have people working in both programs. Hence the most recent season of doing men's Jan 2021 through to late Sept 2021 and then jumping straight into AFLW means they never get a break. That's what I have gathered from the commentary around it at least. How many other leagues are so under-resourced that they have a large portion of their staff working in two programs... probably not a lot.

Yeah staff working on both programs at the same time would be a tough load. Maybe another good reason to spread out both men's and women's seasons over the whole year with little crossover? Working 48-50 weeks of the year is pretty common, the load would be a problem though. Yeah we need more resources, no doubt. Need more funds. Maybe Gil is putting the broadcast rights bundle on the table as we type, funds to improve many other areas of the league.

 

[CrowdedHouse]

The media is first and foremost television. A lot of TV slots for football open up from late August onwards which can be exploited for the start of the AFLW season.

Actually, not as many as you think.

First of all, during the first two (possibly three weeks) in September, there will be no Friday or Saturday night AFLW games - the AFL will want the slots for their men's finals. Plus the Saturday/Sunday 2pm-5pm slots will be taken by the Men's State League Finals - AFLW matches on Ch7 will most likely be forced into the 12pm-2pm slot.

Secondly, in October, the Saturday afternoon timeslot on Channel 7 will be taken by Horse Racing. The brutal reality is, the gambling companies spend up big on advertising during this time and will get prime focus.

Thirdly, there is the Cricket Australia contract with Seven and Foxtel. WBBL was on last year in October/November, and Channel 7 will be obligated to show a number of matches, taking possible prime-time timeslots from AFLW - and even if scheduled at the same time on different Network 7 Channels - you're splitting the audience.
Quietest time is probably 2nd week of November to Mid-December, but there will be some Men's Test Matches and Possibly Women's Internationals.

Playing in the top stadiums enables a higher quality of football, which is rather desirable to get the season off to a strong start. And to say 'yeah but AFLW crowds don't fill stadiums' just highlights your narrow vision for the league and inability to see the potential growth opportunities.

As much as TV is king, near empty stadiums on TV look bad and rob a game of atmosphere.

Prior to doing women's footy, I called VFL (men's) for a number of years. The finals at North Port Oval had a fantastic atmosphere when the crowd was packed in tight to this small ground.

However, when the Grand Final was played at Docklands, the atmosphere was terrible with a small crowd. I know that from both calling there and in one year being the MC out on the ground.


BUT, let's focus on your "potential growth opportunities" angle. You do know a December AFLW Grand Final will mean that the MCG, Adelaide Oval, Optus Stadium, SCG or Gabba are all ruled out?

Even Marvel Stadium, Giants Stadium and Metricon Stadium are 'doubtful' depending on the timing of the BBL season and whatever contracts those stadiums have with Cricket Australia?

So, where are you going to hold the Grand Final?

 

[Teen Wolf]

Actually, not as many as you think.

First of all, during the first two (possibly three weeks) in September, there will be no Friday or Saturday night AFLW games - the AFL will want the slots for their men's finals. Plus the Saturday/Sunday 2pm-5pm slots will be taken by the Men's State League Finals - AFLW matches on Ch7 will most likely be forced into the 12pm-2pm slot.

Secondly, in October, the Saturday afternoon timeslot on Channel 7 will be taken by Horse Racing. The brutal reality is, the gambling companies spend up big on advertising during this time and will get prime focus.

Thirdly, there is the Cricket Australia contract with Seven and Foxtel. WBBL was on last year in October/November, and Channel 7 will be obligated to show a number of matches, taking possible prime-time timeslots from AFLW - and even if scheduled at the same time on different Network 7 Channels - you're splitting the audience.
Quietest time is probably 2nd week of November to Mid-December, but there will be some Men's Test Matches and Possibly Women's Internationals.

Saturday afternoon is what state league football and horse racing is for. Saturday and Sunday mornings: women's cricket (there's a whole sordid saga to catch up on if you think Seven are going to be doing CA any favours). These timeslots have little relevance to the vision that the AFL and its free-to-air broadcaster hold for AFLW.

And of course the AFL want to play most men's finals on Fri/Sat night. Apparently more people are aware of this than you think. The important detail you omitted is the AFL want to use those highly viewed men's finals to promote the AFLW games that will be played on the corresponding Sundays.

As much as TV is king, near empty stadiums on TV look bad and rob a game of atmosphere.

Prior to doing women's footy, I called VFL (men's) for a number of years. The finals at North Port Oval had a fantastic atmosphere when the crowd was packed in tight to this small ground.

However, when the Grand Final was played at Docklands, the atmosphere was terrible with a small crowd. I know that from both calling there and in one year being the MC out on the ground.

More defeatist baloney. We aren't talking about the second tier VFL. We are talking about an elite competition for which the aspirations should be set accordingly. That would mean playing in the best venues when possible, aiming to draw good crowds at those venues (using creative initiatives if need be), and not allowing such aspirations to be extinguished by a fear of failure.

BUT, let's focus on your "potential growth opportunities" angle. You do know a December AFLW Grand Final will mean that the MCG, Adelaide Oval, Optus Stadium, SCG or Gabba are all ruled out?

Even Marvel Stadium, Giants Stadium and Metricon Stadium are 'doubtful' depending on the timing of the BBL season and whatever contracts those stadiums have with Cricket Australia?

So, where are you going to hold the Grand Final?

The key growth opportunities for the grand final are a) getting people to pay a premium admission fee; and b) increased TV viewership by not having it played at the crack of noon.

I'll tell you where it's going to be held just as soon as I've finished measuring a piece of string.

 

[HereIam86]

Two Irish players heading to North.

AFLW Latest News - AFL.com.au/aflw

Latest breaking AFLW news from the official website of the Australian Football League.

www.womens.afl

 

[cmndstab]

Two Irish players heading to North.

AFLW Latest News - AFL.com.au/aflw

Latest breaking AFLW news from the official website of the Australian Football League.

www.womens.afl

Lol at the Meath manager teeing off:

Meath manager Eamonn Murray recently launched an extraordinary attack on the AFLW after being questioned on Wall's future, saying: "I don't know why you'd want to play that sport … it's dreadful stuff to watch. I can't understand it. There's no skill at all.

"We can't do anything about it, but that's the problem we have. She's getting a good contract I'm sure over there, plus she's good at talking Irish and all of that stuff. I don't begrudge it to her."

Also what is the boldfaced part supposed to mean??

 

[Walshawk]

Bye week is the perfect start.
Grounds are way too hard in Jan/Feb, and the quality of football suffers in the heat. Games should/will be played at AFL clubs' training centre. E.g. Punt Rd, Dingley (Hawks), Casey, etc. Modern yet small capacity. Ridiculous to have 1k - 5K @ MCG, Marvel, Gabba, SCG (BBL will have priority anyway) except for the GF.

 

[Bostonian]

More defeatist baloney. We aren't talking about the second tier VFL. We are talking about an elite competition for which the aspirations should be set accordingly. That would mean playing in the best venues when possible, aiming to draw good crowds at those venues (using creative initiatives if need be), and not allowing such aspirations to be extinguished by a fear of failure.

What % of the Australian public do you think consider AFLW an elite competition?

 

[Profop]

What % of the Australian public do you think consider AFLW an elite competition?

Objectively it is an elite competition. It is the highest standard of competition that can be achieved by the playing cohort, by definition that makes it elite compared to other competitions in its arena. I would hope that 100% of the population had a basic grasp on that concept

 

[Bostonian]

Lol at the Meath manager teeing off:



Also what is the boldfaced part supposed to mean??

She can speak Gaelic I assume.

Which as GAA funding and advertising is linked into the cultural heritage aspect as well as the sport they often have a Gaelic language version.

That makes her marketable for the women's game over there I'd think.

Similar to this video. It's trying to save the language from extinction by getting well known sports people to promote it to kids.

 

[Bombermania]

How does the AFLW actually make money? This is a genuine question, as far as I know entry to games is free and I can't see TV viewership being too high, although I'm not aware of exact figures.
I understand the importance of women's sport and I'm in no way trying to belittle the competition, I'm just curious how they justify tripling the salaries of these players in the next couple of years with no money being generated from the competition.
The AFL are already propping up quite a few AFL clubs, they've cut the soft-cap, and now with even more AFLW teams coming in on top of that and minimum salaries being tripled, all the while crowds in both the men's games and women's games seemingly falling away in the last couple of years... I'm wondering how sustainable it is in the long run. The women's game is decades away from even thinking about it being profitable, I'm not sure 60k per year adds up.

They say they want to be paid for 22 hours a week. Over a 16 round season (12+4 finals) plus let's say 6 weeks of preseason
22×22 = 484 hours
59013÷484 = $121.92p/h

Let's say a team doesn't even make finals so just 12 rounds plus 6 week preseason
18×22 = 396
59013÷396 = $149.02p/h

To me, thats crazy money. And that would just be the minimum salary!

Suburban and country footy is also mostly free.

AFL clubs are classed as sporting clubs so by legal definition they are not a for profit business.

 

[Profop]

How does the AFLW actually make money? This is a genuine question, as far as I know entry to games is free and I can't see TV viewership being too high, although I'm not aware of exact figures.
I understand the importance of women's sport and I'm in no way trying to belittle the competition, I'm just curious how they justify tripling the salaries of these players in the next couple of years with no money being generated from the competition.
The AFL are already propping up quite a few AFL clubs, they've cut the soft-cap, and now with even more AFLW teams coming in on top of that and minimum salaries being tripled, all the while crowds in both the men's games and women's games seemingly falling away in the last couple of years... I'm wondering how sustainable it is in the long run. The women's game is decades away from even thinking about it being profitable, I'm not sure 60k per year adds up.

They say they want to be paid for 22 hours a week. Over a 16 round season (12+4 finals) plus let's say 6 weeks of preseason
22×22 = 484 hours
59013÷484 = $121.92p/h

Let's say a team doesn't even make finals so just 12 rounds plus 6 week preseason
18×22 = 396
59013÷396 = $149.02p/h

To me, thats crazy money. And that would just be the minimum salary!

Money has to go somewhere though. Rather it go to the girls then in hiring another swathe of suits for AFL house

 

[Profop]

Yes but tying the world elite to it won't be the visual impression many people who might want h it will get.

Especially when you have someone taking about it like it's elite when compared to the VFL.

The visuals don't match the language.

But the VFL isn't a comparable competition. The VFLW is a comparable competition and I'm confident you'd see a visual impression of that watching those two competitions

 

[Profop]

You're one deluded camper.

They can call it what they want, too bad the optics don't match the label.

The label of elite has nothing to do with optics, not sure why you keep saying it does?

The very best ten pin bowlers are elite. The optics of that level of ten pin bowling is (in my opinion) horrendous. I can still acknowledge that they are elite though

 

[cmndstab]

She can speak Gaelic I assume.

Which as GAA funding and advertising is linked into the cultural heritage aspect as well as the sport they often have a Gaelic language version.

That makes her marketable for the women's game over there I'd think.

Well sure, but that's not relevant to what they were saying. Muray was commenting on Wall playing AFLW.

"We can't do anything about it, but that's the problem we have. She's getting a good contract I'm sure over there, plus she's good at talking Irish and all of that stuff. I don't begrudge it to her."

I can only think of two things that could be meant by this. Either (a) the fact that Wall can speak Gaelic somehow explains why she would want to play AFLW/would be headhunted by AFLW, or (b) Murray would begrudge Wall playing AFLW if she didn't speak Gaelic, but since Wall does speak Gaelic that makes it okay for some reason.

Neither of those explanations make any sense to me.

 

[Bostonian]

Well sure, but that's not relevant to what they were saying. Muray was commenting on Wall playing AFLW.

"We can't do anything about it, but that's the problem we have. She's getting a good contract I'm sure over there, plus she's good at talking Irish and all of that stuff. I don't begrudge it to her."

I can only think of two things that could be meant by this. Either (a) the fact that Wall can speak Gaelic somehow explains why she would want to play AFLW/would be headhunted by AFLW, or (b) Murray would begrudge Wall playing AFLW if she didn't speak Gaelic, but since Wall does speak Gaelic that makes it okay for some reason.

Neither of those explanations make any sense to me.

You're trying to read to much into words on a screen.

I take it as he's mixed in a reason why he's sorry she's going with reasons why he can understand why she is.

Mayo is a rural county so we can't assume we're dealing with some eloquent speaker.

If he's like my mate from Mayo he's very passionate and not one to hold back what he's thinking.

 

[Bostonian]

The label of elite has nothing to do with optics, not sure why you keep saying it does?

The very best ten pin bowlers are elite. The optics of that level of ten pin bowling is (in my opinion) horrendous. I can still acknowledge that they are elite though.

If they are the ten best bowlers then they are the elite of the sport.

That's as good as it gets.

If you want to try and paint AFLW as being an elite version of that sport it won't hold up when people watch it. The standard of football doesn't synch with the claim of elite.

 

[Profop]

If they are the ten best bowlers then they are the elite of the sport.

That's as good as it gets.

If you want to try and paint AFLW as being an elite version of that sport it won't hold up when people watch it. The standard of football doesn't synch with the claim of elite.

You understand that unless there is some other better female football league then everything you wrote there makes absolutely no sense right?

 

[Bostonian]

You understand that unless there is some other better female football league then everything you wrote there makes absolutely no sense right?

Makes perfect sense using your example.

The ten best bowlers could be male or female.


As footballers these players aren't elite. There's only one elite competition. Then there's a bunch of other leagues including the AFLW that aren't at an elite level.

 

[FoopyNerd]

Makes perfect sense using your example.

The ten best bowlers could be male or female.


As footballers these players aren't elite. There's only one elite competition. Then there's a bunch of other leagues including the AFLW that aren't at an elite level.

So Katie Ledecky isn't an elite swimmer because there are men who can swim faster than her?