Society/Culture Are hierarchies bad?

[Sweet Jesus]

It has become a catchcry among the woke left that hierarchies invariably become systems of entrenched injustice and unfairness. As a result, some folks suggest we'd be better off dismantling hierarchies and maybe even living in collectives where everyone is equal.

Is this practical? Or even desirable as an ideal?

What would be the alternative mechanism for ordering a society, aside from some kind of hierarchy?

How would this prized equality be maintained?

Is it perhaps the case that those calling for hierarchies to be dismantled simply want a different hierarchy established that more neatly aligns with their own ideological self-interest?

 

[Carringbush2010]

This should not even be a question.

I'd like for 5 minutes to have anarchy so all the hierarchy naysayers would have their epiphany.

But, that 5 minute price is much too high and too cruel even for the naive.

 

[kickazz]

Is it perhaps the case that those calling for hierarchies to be dismantled simply want a different hierarchy established that more neatly aligns with their own ideological self-interest?

Pretty much this.

I almost fell off my chair when I saw someone in here try to define Left vs Right as no hierarchy vs hierarchy.

Clearly little understanding of how 20th century communist societies worked.

 

[Malifice]

It has become a catchcry among the woke left that hierarchies invariably become systems of entrenched injustice and unfairness.

Of course they are. They're unfair to everyone other than the ones at the top of the pyramid.

 

[Malifice]

I almost fell off my chair when I saw someone in here try to define Left vs Right as no hierarchy vs hierarchy.

Thats where the line of demarcation stands though.

Right wingers think hierarchies are natural and desirable.

Left wingers oppose them, and support individualism and collectivism.

 

[kickazz]

As a result, some folks suggest we'd be better off dismantling hierarchies and maybe even living in collectives where everyone is equal.

We are better off dismantling hierarchies when they get out of hand - but it goes both ways - the tyrants at the top of the hierarchy can be government (Left wing hierarchy if you will) or private capitalist entities (Right Wing).

The idea of a collective with all being equal requires too many objective definitions around equality to be able to work. Maybe if an external AI with all the answers could set the rules and look after us - but then that is a hierarchy in itself.

 

[kickazz]

Left wingers oppose them, and support individualism

I'd be interested to hear your evidence for this - not saying you are wrong but to me individualism is much more of a Right wing thing.


Left wing ideologies such as Communism relied on the idea of the collective so heavily, that instead of owning the output of your labour, the state owned it, and then doled out the spoils on an as needs, fair basis. So without the motivation of Smith's "invisible hand", Communist States had to invoke themes of honour and loyalty to the country and comrade when trying to get people to work.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Of course they are. They're unfair to everyone other than the ones at the top of the pyramid.

So hierarchies should be dismantled?

 

[Malifice]

We are better off dismantling hierarchies when they get out of hand - but it goes both ways - the tyrants at the top of the hierarchy can be government (Left wing hierarchy if you will) or private capitalist entities (Right Wing).

Liberal democracies are not hierarchies. They're comprised of representatives of the people, appointed by the people, and accountable to them.

 

[Malifice]

So hierarchies should be dismantled?

Depends on the hierarchy. Some are more tolerable than others.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Depends on the hierarchy. Some are more tolerable than others.

So what are you actually saying?

I thought you said we don't need hierarchies at all? We'd be better off living in a collective where everyone is equal?

Now you want to preserve some hierarchies?

Please explain.

 

[Malifice]

I'd be interested to hear your evidence for this - not saying you are wrong but to me individualism is much more of a Right wing thing.

It's from Wikipedia, but it's sourced:

Right-wing politics supports the view that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable,[1][2][3] typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics, or tradition.[4]: 693, 721 [5][6][7][8][9] Hierarchy and inequality may be seen as natural results of traditional social differences[10][11] or competition in market economies.[12][13][14]

Right-wing politics - Wikipedia

Left-wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition of social hierarchy.[1][2][3][4] Left-wing politics typically involve a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished.[1] According to emeritus professor of economics Barry Clark, left-wing supporters "claim that human development flourishes when individuals engage in cooperative, mutually respectful relations that can thrive only when excessive differences in status, power, and wealth are eliminate

Left-wing politics - Wikipedia

 

[kickazz]

Liberal democracies are not hierarchies. They're comprised of representatives of the people, appointed by the people, and accountable to them.

But by their nature they allow hierarchies to flourish - at least until the point we can no longer tolerate them. I see democracy more as a regulator of hierarchies rather than imposing its own hierarchy or destroying others.

And how that liberal democracy is implemented makes a difference. Right now, no Australian government is really accountable to someone in a safe electorate, but they are certainly accountable to political donors.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Lol how does a discussion on hierarchy descend into a left v right topic.

Literally has got zero to do with it.

Hierarchy being hijacked by fkwits is not the fault of hierarchies, it's the fault of the fkwits. FFS grow a brain people!

 

[Malifice]

So what are you actually saying?

I thought you said we don't need hierarchies at all? We'd be better off living in a collective where everyone is equal?

Now you want to preserve some hierarchies?

Please explain.

I'm saying that due to humans being human, I don't think it's possible to dismantle all hierarchies, and not all hierarchies are equal.

Some are more toxic and oppressive than others.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Thats where the line of demarcation stands though.

Right wingers people who understand what hierarchies actually are think hierarchies are natural and desirable.

Left wingers oppose them, and support individualism and collectivism. Which is noble in sentiment but is impractical in practice.

EFA

Hopefully you'll get it.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm saying that due to humans being human, I don't think it's possible to dismantle all hierarchies, and not all hierarchies are equal.

Some are more toxic and oppressive than others.

But would it be your preference to dismantle all hierarchies?

Or do you like some hierarchies?

 

[Carringbush2010]

I'm saying that due to humans being human, I don't think it's possible to dismantle all hierarchies, and not all hierarchies are equal.

Some are more toxic and oppressive than others.

Now you're getting it! Finally!

Now you just need to get your head around the fact that hierarchies are not designed to be oppressive, they're designed to bring order and organization.

 

[Malifice]

But by their nature they allow hierarchies to flourish

You need to read John Stuart Mills 'On Liberty'.

He was all over this issue (he called it the 'Tyranny of the majority') and identified a space for liberal States to legislate to break up the oppression of hierarchies in society.

Old school liberals reasoned that as long as people were free from government tyranny they would be 'free' (called 'negative liberty', or 'freedom from' the government. The reality of course is that free from regulation, other social and economic hierarchies form in society and not everyone is given a fair go. JS Mill advocated for government intervention to break up those tyrannies to ensure everyone gets a fair go and equal opportunity (called 'positive liberty' or 'freedom to' do things).

Negative liberty requires the government to be small and 'let the dice fall where they may'. It results in a different kind of oppression in society though.

Positive liberty requires the government to legislate to protect people from harm from others and to stop people and hierarchies oppressing's those at the bottom. It seeks to ensure everyone gets a fair go.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Liberal democracies are not have hierarchies, like all other forms of societies, communities and groups. They're comprised of representatives of the people, appointed by the people, and accountable to them.

Fixed it again for you.

 

[Malifice]

But would it be your preference to dismantle all hierarchies?

Broadly speaking, Yes.

Collectivism and individualism is to be preferred over a hierarchy.

Hierarchies are almost always pyramids remember. The few at the top have the power, prestige and authority while those at the bottom have less rights and are oppressed.

 

[Malifice]

Fixed it again for you.

Of course they do. Im not saying hierarchies 'dont exist'. I'm just saying a representative liberal democracy is not one.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Of course they do. Im not saying hierarchies 'dont exist'. I'm just saying a representative liberal democracy is not one.

So what is your point in relation to the discussion?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Broadly speaking, Yes.

Collectivism and individualism is to be preferred over a hierarchy.

Hierarchies are almost always pyramids remember. The few at the top have the power, prestige and authority while those at the bottom have less rights and are oppressed.

So without a hierarchy, who would establish and enforce laws?

Wealth creates hierarchies. Should we make sure no one has more wealth than anyone else?

Make sure everyone is equal! If you're a brain surgeon, you get paid the same as a barista. Because we can't have hierarchies.

Is that how you'd like to reorder society?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Broadly speaking, Yes.

Collectivism and individualism is to be preferred over a hierarchy.

Hierarchies are almost always pyramids remember. The few at the top have the power, prestige and authority while those at the bottom have less rights and are oppressed.

Yes we get that, it's no secret, that hierarchy for all it's good intent and purposes is hijacked by a few and misused for ill personal gain.

And yes we get the utopian theory of collectivism and individualism is to be preferred but entirely impossible and therefore impractical.

But as you've already admitted that there's the humans being humans problem and that hierarchies are indeed impossible to be rid of.

So how would you address the problem?