Opinion Big bodied inside mids. Who would be in our top 5 since our last finals win in 2004?
- Thread starter MattyB3150
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This is a pretty good point, but I don’t know if it’s through a lack of trying... Myers would have been good if not for injuries, I reckon we would have taken Clayton Oliver if Melbourne didn’t sneak up the draft order and pip him, and Langford and Laverde would have almost certainly been selected for there propensity to one day be mids...
You could maybe be critical of us not looking at Brodie or Taranto when we had the top pick but there’s an equal argument for needing quick outside players like McGrath.
You could maybe be critical of us not looking at Brodie or Taranto when we had the top pick but there’s an equal argument for needing quick outside players like McGrath.
I'll throw Devon in, small in stature but he "plays big". Best tackler in the comp. Shiel missed him nearly as much as me.
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If Heppell is a big body, consider me Gregor Clegane.
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I think big bodied is bit too simplistic. I think body type is the bigger issue.
Mitchell and Neale aren’t big body’s but are still dominant in the contest partial due to body type.
Personally think we’ve drafted too many ectomorphs and not enough mesomorphs.
The mesomorph frame generally has the best balance, between physical competing, agility and aerobic capacity.
We really only have Shiel, Parish and McGrath with this body type in our midfield when that type should be the majority of the midfield. Obviously there are more variables to football ability than that but it’s a truism that you build around due to probability and then have some outliers for points of difference.
Mitchell and Neale aren’t big body’s but are still dominant in the contest partial due to body type.
Personally think we’ve drafted too many ectomorphs and not enough mesomorphs.
The mesomorph frame generally has the best balance, between physical competing, agility and aerobic capacity.
We really only have Shiel, Parish and McGrath with this body type in our midfield when that type should be the majority of the midfield. Obviously there are more variables to football ability than that but it’s a truism that you build around due to probability and then have some outliers for points of difference.
The mesomorph has the best balance? Really? I would have thought the Endomorph does; solid through the core, lower centre of gravity, still strong through the shoulders. Leroy Jetta was shaped like a mesomorph and always got knocked off the ball because he was both smaller and top heavy. I reckon players like Jobe and JPK look like endomorphs.
- Jul 7, 2014
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I'd take any of the above morph options
Ess @ the draft: best available small/mid
Ess @ finals loss: not enough big bodied inside mids
Ess @ trade week: trade away picks for best available small/mid
Ess @ finals loss: not enough big bodied inside mids
Ess @ trade week: trade away picks for best available small/mid
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They are also outliers physically and if you’re aiming to only draft them you’re never going to develop a premiership standard midfield. Not to mention we had Watson and still had a s**t midfield because we didn’t have the balance. Ectomorphs obvious work well in the one aspect of the stoppage, but you’ve gotta have that balance for the majority of your side to execute a system which is far more important to team success than just stoppage execution.
- Dec 2, 2014
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Don't need to be big, just tougher.
Wait, which ones are you saying are the outliers physically? Mesos or Endos?
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In general population it would be meso but in afl midfielders it’s endos due to lesser athletic traits and aerobic performance.
I see what you're saying. I think we need an inside mid who's an endo. At the moment Stringer is probably the only real bull who's strong through the hips and core and can break tackles. Myers was more meso but because he was aller maybe it didn't matter so much. I think we need another one.
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You know it doesn't matter , right?
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Sure it does. People just don’t think about these things as being significant.
In the NBA the average length limb to height ratio has grown significantly since they’ve started testing. Why? Not because they’ve specifically been looking for it, but because those players have risen to the top. There would be similar variance nuances in the AFL but the average punter wouldn’t care. Nor are the stats generally taken for this stuff because our stats game is significantly behind the major sports in the world.
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You are spot on! I could not care less about NBA stats.
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Understandable. But teams do care about this stuff, such as Carlton whose recruiting team had some Oakland Raiders statisticians out working with them this year to help improve their scope of data collection.
Makes sense to me. Reminds me of the science behind Ivan Drago.
- Dec 14, 2008
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someone made a point to me a while back that the game changed and we stood still - a particular focus being the tall big inside midfielder.
in times past players like Fyfe, Dangerfield, Cripps would have probably been champion centre half forwards - all those classic chf's of the days were only really 190cm but had the ability to run up and down the wings an use the tank which made them a better option at chf and not at ff.
Its pretty clear to see from junior levels these days, if any player shows any form of ability, even if they are 190cm+ they are turned into midfielders because its a midfielders game and thats where their talents are maximised. It probably signals the deathnell of the class forwards coming through the system, in the future foward lines will prbbaly consist of a beanpole or resting ruck who can bring it to ground for a fleet of smalls, who either lock it in or kick the goals.
I recdkon we are still rooted in the past, small midfielders , tall forwards - thats how its always been, and how it will stay - we are sticking by it, it won us 16 flags yaknow?
in times past players like Fyfe, Dangerfield, Cripps would have probably been champion centre half forwards - all those classic chf's of the days were only really 190cm but had the ability to run up and down the wings an use the tank which made them a better option at chf and not at ff.
Its pretty clear to see from junior levels these days, if any player shows any form of ability, even if they are 190cm+ they are turned into midfielders because its a midfielders game and thats where their talents are maximised. It probably signals the deathnell of the class forwards coming through the system, in the future foward lines will prbbaly consist of a beanpole or resting ruck who can bring it to ground for a fleet of smalls, who either lock it in or kick the goals.
I recdkon we are still rooted in the past, small midfielders , tall forwards - thats how its always been, and how it will stay - we are sticking by it, it won us 16 flags yaknow?
I don't agree with this.
We had a big midfield unit in 2013/2014 which was the peak of the first Dodoro list build.
Watson and Myers were huge mids. Hocking was another bull. If height is the cut off, it probably is at the point players are drafted/recruited, Heppell and Goddard are also there too (that's 4 mids >189cm in one team).
If anything by that time we were stuck in the Geelong era of the game with a midfield that was too big and too slow without the running power to work well in the transition of the game in this most recent era (which has essentially been from 2013 to now with variations).
Since then we've also drafted Laverde, Langford, Begley, Francis and Ridley with the stated aim of playing them as mids. They're all somewhere in that Fyfe, Cripps and Danger size and shape. I accept that we weren't going to turn them all into full time mids but so far we have tried it with 1 player (who everyone other than our coaching staff has been able to see was the least suited to doing it early in his career).
It suits the narrative about out team that I suport, so make of that what you will, but almost all of the evidence (in terms of decisions made, etc) demonstrate that this fascination with a midget midfield is much more recent and a miscalculation at two levels.
First, by the coaching staff which clearly believed at the end of 2017 that the game style was much closer than it actually was (hence the s**t dished up at the start of 2018 and 2019).
The second miscalculation has been from Dodoro who burned many of our high end picks since the build from 2014 on players he thought we'd at least try to turn into midfielders (many of whom will never fit into the current team). I count 5 of the 10 first and second round selections we have had since 2014 in which we only took 1 guy who played his junior footy exclusively as a midfielder (who is a midget and nowhere near justifying the pick 5 tag) with the rest being hybrids (not developed as mids).
The other query I have is physical development. Not enough meat and potatoes in the gym for any of the kids (or anyone on the list). There was a time I supported the gradual build for our kids but I now think it's basically just stagnation.
A Sydney kid is basically AFL adult size by the end of year 3. It seems to be much the same for Adelaide too.
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- Dec 14, 2008
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so it would seem, going by this narrative that we are always one step behing the prevailing footballing trends? but we are too inflexible to change with the times as they happen? once you lock onto a one paced midfield, it takes us a full cycle to change, then we changed to a lightweight outside list - the game changed to contested again...we lock onto a vision and dont waver from it (as spoken in woosh voice)
although its kind of weird, I always wanted to be the trendsetter who comes up with the next great footballing philosophy that takes the game by storm, and everybody imitates - and clearly we have gone it alone with the run and gun from the back while the rest of the comp moves it forward and locks it in. Do we admit defeat and join the flock or keep pushing on this philosophy?
I expanded my original post (which is what you quoted).
The club probably needs to work out what its philosophy is before deciding to abandon it to join the flock.
I cannot, in any way shape or form, reconcile what we have done at the draft table from 2015 with the decisions of the coaching staff in the last 18 months. It is very hard to identify a consistent philosphy since 2015 and to me there is a clear disconnect between football and recruiting.
Further support for the belief that we thought we were close at the end of 2017 is the type of players we brought into the club at a time when we would otherwise have rebuilt the midfield via the draft. A forward, who ruins the balance of a very good forward line, with the aim of having him play midfield and a midget inside mid we broke playing as an inside mid - just quickly on this point, don't be surprised if Smith never gets back to his 2018 form, all throughout 2018 there were comments from the club stating that he was battling the rigors of playing inside, he started 2019 like s**t and then had surgery on his knee that is missing a tendon. I'd back Daniher to get back to what he was many times before I'd back Smith to do the same. Granted that there was a clear need for a small defender - I never had a problem with Saad.
We aborted the build from 2015 to chase success because we thought we were good and we have nothing to show for it, except for a midfield that is still average and a list that is so imbalanced that it doesn't really make any sense.
Edit: maybe a better last line is "and a list that cannot achieve anything close to its potential under the current coaching set up".
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- Jul 7, 2014
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I asked a mate who works in this area (he did stats for a Melbourne club last year and others before it. I'll quote him directly when I asked about Carlton's Oakland's Raiders visit..."Blind leading the blind. The blues have no serious stats department"
- Dec 14, 2008
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BrunoV
"Since then we've also drafted Laverde, Langford, Begley, Francis and Ridley with the stated aim of playing them as mids"
whos stated aim? was it Dodoro on draft night, on repeat saying they have scope?
or genuine match day coaches and strategists (who actually make these things happen)
i agree with the dissconnect - Feels evey bit like Dodoro runs his on race to an extent, he can draft all the projects he likes but they will never end up being finished if everybody isnt working to the same set of instructions.
As some philosopher once said, when you are in your own lane...there is no traffic. I can see dodo driving off into the sunset with his arm out the window, whistling dixie...
"Since then we've also drafted Laverde, Langford, Begley, Francis and Ridley with the stated aim of playing them as mids"
whos stated aim? was it Dodoro on draft night, on repeat saying they have scope?
or genuine match day coaches and strategists (who actually make these things happen)
i agree with the dissconnect - Feels evey bit like Dodoro runs his on race to an extent, he can draft all the projects he likes but they will never end up being finished if everybody isnt working to the same set of instructions.
As some philosopher once said, when you are in your own lane...there is no traffic. I can see dodo driving off into the sunset with his arm out the window, whistling dixie...
