Brisbane- Another priority pick this year?

[BRAB]

I think this discussion will be a bit clearer if we are at the end of the season with a solitary win which I feel is a fairly likely scenario.

 

[JeffDunne]

Up there with you throwing out statements and ignoring any further questions about them.

Such as?

 

[mikey127]

Agree lets see what happens this weekend

Why the weekend and not the end of the season though?

 

[mikey127]

Can I throw up 1 other suggestion.

Brisbane get a priority pick to be used on an academy player without using any draft points.

e,g We can put Connor ballenden on our list prior to the draft

 

[BRAB]

Such as?

Lol

 

[Haso]

Such as?

Who hurt you Jeff?

Who hurt you?

 

[BRAB]

Can I throw up 1 other suggestion.

Brisbane get a priority pick to be used on an academy player without using any draft points.

e,g We can put Connor ballenden on our list prior to the draft

I do like me a priority pick in disguise.

Would mean we could get Connor and use picks 12ish (Richmond), 16ish (Port) and 19ish (2nd rounder) on players.

Add in picks 1 and Connor, means we essentially get 5 players within the top 20. Good base.

I don't think it's that different from a PP though

 

[mikey127]

I do like me a priority pick in disguise.

Would mean we could get Connor and use picks 12ish (Richmond), 16ish (Port) and 19ish (2nd rounder) on players.

Add in picks 1 and Connor, means we essentially get 5 players within the top 20. Good base.

I don't think it's that different from a PP though

Feel its a little bit different because its basically a Queensland priority selection like the olds days, think we used one of these for Stevue Lawrence back in the day and were 7kms of getting Riewoldt with one of these

 

[katmanblue]

Just in case you hadn't noticed our CEO, football dept manager and current coach are all AFL appointments in everything bar name. They were pretty much responsible for all of them. Heck even when we were on the verge of a complete board spill the AFL stepped in and orchestrated a compromised solution that they clearly favoured. So essentially we currently are run by the AFL. Some of the appointments will take time to fix the issues that have been created by years of incompetent management.

In the meantime we've put in place the most comprehensively resourced welfare department in the league as far as personnel goes (stated by Fagan in one of his interviews) and we've bulked up our academy development system, as well as hiring a bunch of assistant coaches from development backgrounds. Certainly our facilities need to be sorted out ASAP but its not like we've been ignoring them.

From a drafting side of things, its a bit of a gilt edged sword isn't it. Do you go for an inferior talent and try to draft qlders as a priority (not to mention possibly compromising your list profile strategy) or do you draft the talent and back in the systems you've now put in place to retain them. Its probably a balance of both realistically. We certainly do have a bit of an emerging system in our drafting. We'll usually go vic country over vic metro, and it seems that we're going for groups of guys who have come through the same pathways to a degree. We do for a fact take into personalities when we're drafting, and you'd be quite shocked at the number of names that we've had to put a line through over the past few years especially, due to either not fitting the right character traits or players flat out saying they dont want to be drafted up north and will leave in 2 years.

I guess the question is is whether the AFL will deem it necessary to provide some assistance to those it has put in place in order to try to ensure that the turnaround doesn't take so long that it goes beyond tipping point. Now whether a priority pick is the solution I'm not sure. I do know it certainly can't hurt.

Then there's always the whole line around that a teenager won't solve anything which is true to a degree and that we should be forced to trade it for players. The only issue is that trades require 3 parties to agree and despite throwing bunches of cash at every major free agent or out of contract player over the last few years we still can't get one to come here, so thats not really a realistic solution either.

Personally I would be reasonably happy with the minimum contract for first round draftees being 3 years with a club optioned 4th year (salary increases year on year to be set) and 2 years with a club optioned 3rd year for all other rounds. Add to this the scrapping of the 95% rule requiring teams to pay most of the salary cap even if their list profile and age doesn't' reflect this.

Currently the salary cap and the draft are the two main mechanisms of equalisation that the AFL put in place to try to ensure an even competition, however at present they're not really working that effectively. Rather than settling into playing AFL and life as a professional sportsperson players are being expected to decide the next 3-5 years of their lives 1 - 1 1/2 years into their career, sometimes even less, or facing a whole bunch of scrutiny because they haven't. Thats not a whole lot of time to get a player embedded into life as an AFL player with all the things they need to adjust to lifestyle wise, let alone getting them doing that while living away from their family and cooking, cleaning etc for themselves. So all of a sudden one of your two main advantages in being low on the table can be gone two years into their development, before you've had time to really obtain any sort of value from it.

Now this isn't a Brisbane only issue, all clubs go through it, albeit on a reduced scale to those in states that have lower drafted player numbers. And don't get me wrong this isn't saying Brisbane isn't to blame for these issues, we certainly are culpible, but the above would certainly assist in our ability to turn the ship around, and weather bad times without things going to absolute crap.

Secondly is the salary cap and this rule you have to pay 95% of it. Honestly i'd be flabbergasted if anyone thought the current list at Brisbane should be getting 95% of the GWS or Adelaide sides at present. What it creates is a system of mediocre players getting overpaid until such time as the list talent catches up with the rest of the competition. You're then susceptible to those players not wanting to take a pay cut later down the track and going elsewhere to a team that can pay what they're after. You also limit the size of the contract that a team like us can throw at an off contract or free agent. Sure, it was brought in to ensure that teams were paying most of the cap and not deliberately staying a long way under, and therefore being noncompetitive. However in a system where players must agree to a trade this means that sometimes while the desire to pay the cap is there, in reality the ability is not. Once again the inability to attract players is certainly some of our own making, but having a whole 10-15% of the cap available to do so certainly couldn't help bridge some of that gap.

Overall I'd take both of the above over any number of picks, because what they do is enable any team finding themselves in a similar situation to weather the storm much better or not slip as far. A priority pick may help this time, but what is helping to stop the cycle repeating again.

As for the use of Sydney as an argument they've had that extra cap space and while they are a well run club no doubt, that space certainly would have helped. Its not like they haven't seen high picks leave either though. Jetta, Lamb, Mitchell are all playing elsewhere. They've just been able to paper over it through good player development (something we're now working on) and good late round draft picks and trades. It will be interesting to see where it goes for them now that they don't have the extra space. Will club culture and development systems overcome it, it will be interesting to watch.

Apologies that was longer than I intended.

Wowweee. Great post.

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[katmanblue]

Got ourselves right internally?
- virtual AFL appointee Greg Swann as CEO: has managed to stop the massive financial losses, signed several major sponsors, amongst other achievements
- virtual AFL appointee David Noble as GM of Football: one of the most capable football administrators around, has already made big changes throughout the football department in processes, professionalism as well as better list management
- virtual AFL appointee Chris Fagan as senior coach: experienced, understands high performance and success via his Hawthorn experience, teaching background, good communicator, managing to just about get the whole playing list buying into his philosophy, clear game plan
- welfare department, beefed up since 2013 and now the most well resourced in the competition
- living arrangements designed to make new draftees feel comfortable and included, with options of staying with good host families or young guys who are mates living together, with frequent input from welfare team
- training and administration base: been on the look out for location and planning for about 5 years, whispers have it that we are finally close to sealing the deal on this one
- good recruiting team headed by Stephen Conole: taking charge since 2013, nailing most early and middle draft picks
- Lions academy's structure has been improved over the past year, aimed at developing more top level talent

What else can we do to "get ourselves right"?

Give it time. All of those a great, but wont turn the ship around in a hurry.

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[Ron The Bear]

Brisbane fielded the youngest team in its history today. It was nigh on impossible for them to win unless Collingwood literally threw the game away.

They were competitive in early rounds when they fielded a more senior team.

 

[LittleG]

Don't understand why a team that won 3 flags this century needs a priority pick. Many sides haven't won anything for decades. Even Freo are more deserving.

 

[BRAB]

Don't understand why a team that won 3 flags this century needs a priority pick

Surely you can think of a single reason

 

[Scotland]

Brisbane feel better than a 1-9 64% side.

Same problem as last year though, consistently conceding huge scores. 131 per game last year, 122 so far this year. Would like to see them go a bit Paul Roos Melbourne and focus on dragging that down. Melbourne at their worst for 66 for 122 against over the course of a season. By the end of the next season they were 61-89. Still couldn't score, but knocked 5 goals a game off their scores against. Brisbane scored 80 a game last year and are going at 78 so far this season. You win more games scoring 80 than you do conceding 122.

Were right in a couple of games but fell away after half time. Last quarters have been 3, 5, 5, 4, 8, 4, 3, 6, 4, 7 goals conceded for the year. Symptomatic of a very young side. 12 sub 50 gamers today, 12 players (almost the same 12) 21 or younger. No one is expecting miracles.

 

[LittleG]

Surely you can think of a single reason

Their entitled supporters.

 

[Viceregal]

Their entitled supporters.

You believe that Brisbane's supporters are entitled to a PP - that is really most generous and enlightened of you! I will need to take with a large grain of salt all of those evil people saying nasty things lately about Bulldogs supporter's character and attitudes knowing that there are fair and balanced ones such as yourself even here on BigFooty. Thank you and I hope your friends over on the Bulldog's Board don't give you too hard a time for taking an outlier stand like this!

 

[Carlos Danger]

Brisbane feel better than a 1-9 64% side.

Same problem as last year though, consistently conceding huge scores. 131 per game last year, 122 so far this year. Would like to see them go a bit Paul Roos Melbourne and focus on dragging that down. Melbourne at their worst for 66 for 122 against over the course of a season. By the end of the next season they were 61-89. Still couldn't score, but knocked 5 goals a game off their scores against. Brisbane scored 80 a game last year and are going at 78 so far this season. You win more games scoring 80 than you do conceding 122.

Were right in a couple of games but fell away after half time. Last quarters have been 3, 5, 5, 4, 8, 4, 3, 6, 4, 7 goals conceded for the year. Symptomatic of a very young side. 12 sub 50 gamers today, 12 players (almost the same 12) 21 or younger. No one is expecting miracles.

Different times when roos first took over, you used to be able to get a stoppage. Kick towards the boundary line, rush a behind

Pretty hard for a young team to stop scoring when the games keeps getting changed to promote scoring.

Brisbane fielded the youngest team in its history today. It was nigh on impossible for them to win unless Collingwood literally threw the game away.

They were competitive in early rounds when they fielded a more senior team.

Think they just have to ride it out. I don't think there is much more older players to bring in to make us better. Difference early was Rockliff & Robinson. 2 of the best 4 players missing there.

Fagan has tried the older brigade of bell bastinac, bewick, Harwood claye beams & they just don't cut it. They are the worst players, not the kids therefore they keep getting dropped

 

[Damon_3388]

The real issue for the Lions from a playing list perspective (and it's been so for the better part of 10 years, dating back to Leigh Matthews and Gubby Allen's complete inability to build and rebuild through the draft, as well as the lack of development and retention) is the lack of talent in that "prime" age group (aged 25-29, born 1988-1992). Narrowing each playing list down to that age group, the Lions easily have the worst list in the league.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Different times when roos first took over, you used to be able to get a stoppage. Kick towards the boundary line, rush a behind

Pretty hard for a young team to stop scoring when the games keeps getting changed to promote scoring.


Think they just have to ride it out. I don't think there is much more older players to bring in to make us better. Difference early was Rockliff & Robinson. 2 of the best 4 players missing there.

Fagan has tried the older brigade of bell bastinac, bewick, Harwood claye beams & they just don't cut it. They are the worst players, not the kids therefore they keep getting dropped

Yeah that's fair enough, but if floggings follow it's because the team is under-developed. It's not justification for a PP. I dispute however that players like Bastinac are currently worse than first-year players. They have less scope for improvement, is all.

Until very recently, Carlton has plugged plenty of holes with list cloggers in order to remain competitive, while blooding a limited number of kids.

 

[Carlos Danger]

Yeah that's fair enough, but if floggings follow it's because the team is under-developed. It's not justification for a PP.

Until very recently, Carlton has plugged plenty of holes with list cloggers in order to remain competitive, while blooding a limited number of kids.

Well it's not tanking & I doubt any coach with any strategy could be doing much better with our list. Personally I'd rather us score 80 and let them score 130 than have them score 80 and us 30

FWIW my thoughts on a PP

Pro;
1. there is a big gap between us & the next worse team
2. We bottomed out at the time of draft concessions to gws & GC & haven't recovered through the usual draft equalization method
3. The go home 5 we got screwed on all the trades which then brought in the future pick trades so it wouldn't happen to other clubs & is widely regarded as a goid thing but never really recognized the reason for why it changed
4. It's now 8 years of being down this is really the last chance for the club. They rebuilt last time with no PP access I doubt there will be more than 5k crowds if they bottom our again in 3 years. This rebuild just has to work
5. Apart from last year the club has never had a PP a lot of supporters coming at us saying we don't deserve one when they still have PP players in their squad

Cons:
1. We havent yet used the one we got last year
2. We will have a decent hault of top 20 picks especially if scache leaves
3. A top 10 academy kid coming in this draft at a discount

I'm not worried about other clubs needing a pick in the future, if they deserve it. I Will be annoyed if a club has 2 bad years & gets a start of 1st round pick after we had to wait years for anything and then got only 19

 

[M Malice]

The real issue for the Lions from a playing list perspective (and it's been so for the better part of 10 years, dating back to Leigh Matthews and Gubby Allen's complete inability to build and rebuild through the draft, as well as the lack of development and retention) is the lack of talent in that "prime" age group (aged 25-29, born 1988-1992). Narrowing each playing list down to that age group, the Lions easily have the worst list in the league.

Disagree Damon, our severe lack of talent is elsewhere IMO.

Brisbane's age profile-
Teenagers- 11 players.
20-22 years of age- 18 players.
23-25 years of age- 10 players.
26 + years of age- 9 players.

The real bare patch is actually in the 23-25 age group, our best players in that slot are the likes of Mayes (who just turned 23 last week) then you have players of dubious talent like Bastinac, Bell, C.Beams, Frost, Walker, Harwood, Freeman, Grewar and Lester. That is every player in that age group, not much there Damon.

The group 26 + is really quite good to elite IMO eg. D.Beams (27), Rockliff (27), Zorko (28), Christensen (26), Robinson (27), Martin (30) and Rich (26).

 

[wagstaff]

I think they'll get one anyway but what will guarantee it is the continued decline in their home crowds.

There's a fair chance one of their next home games v Freo or GWS could be sub-10k and that hasn't happened to a side (bar GWS/GC) for 20 years at their home ground. It's just an untenable situation and a priority pick and the hope that it brings for the club and its fans is a good way to give hope for the future.

 

[GumbyRules1]

At home games this year half the crowd are gone by 3/4 time. The exodus starts at 1/2 time

 

[Bulldogs2017]

Nah they need help with running the club. They have a very good young list built up it will just take time I watched them first hand destroy us in the first half in Melbourne so they must be half decent. Its clearly the club that needs changing I don't no what it is but its starting to be a joke. As much as lions fan blame the first round picks leaving at the end of the day the Dogs have about the same first round picks as Brisbane and its not affecting us. The fact they cant even get there training base worked out shows the club is a basket case.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Well it's not tanking & I doubt any coach with any strategy could be doing much better with our list. Personally I'd rather us score 80 and let them score 130 than have them score 80 and us 30

FWIW my thoughts on a PP

Pro;
1. there is a big gap between us & the next worse team
2. We bottomed out at the time of draft concessions to gws & GC & haven't recovered through the usual draft equalization method
3. The go home 5 we got screwed on all the trades which then brought in the future pick trades so it wouldn't happen to other clubs & is widely regarded as a goid thing but never really recognized the reason for why it changed
4. It's now 8 years of being down this is really the last chance for the club. They rebuilt last time with no PP access I doubt there will be more than 5k crowds if they bottom our again in 3 years. This rebuild just has to work
5. Apart from last year the club has never had a PP a lot of supporters coming at us saying we don't deserve one when they still have PP players in their squad

Cons:
1. We havent yet used the one we got last year
2. We will have a decent hault of top 20 picks especially if scache leaves
3. A top 10 academy kid coming in this draft at a discount

I'm not worried about other clubs needing a pick in the future, if they deserve it. I Will be annoyed if a club has 2 bad years & gets a start of 1st round pick after we had to wait years for anything and then got only 19

Mmm, well I'm against PP's full stop. Richmond started the expansion era behind Brisbane and bottomed out deeper. Our 2010 teams were even younger than Brisbane's on the weekend. Yes we had PP's in the past but that was the system at the time. PP's turned the game into a farce and represent the nadir of AFL mismanagement.

s**t, I remember watching Tony Modra outscore us by 9 goals in 1993. Me and my old man between us agreed we had five AFL-standard players, among them a skinny Hipwood lookalike in Richardson. We had about 3000 members at the time. We survived.

I would support some (as yet undetermined) form of support that gives Brisbane more chance of hanging onto draftees. Trading Schache after two years in the system for more draft picks isn't the answer. Think they should be looking to acquire talented players 20-22 in return. A promising tall should net a running player of equal talent plus change.