Moved Thread Buddy or Ablett Snr?

[Partridge]

Insulting.

Franklin's arguably the best player of his generation whereas Ablett is arguably top three all time.

I'd say very, very arguably. Ablett's son was a better player for starters.

 

[uranium_death]

Buddy is more consistent and better in finals. I’d rather take his career but I’d have to say peak GAS in H&A is better. It’s not insulting to compare though. He’s kicked more goals in a harder era to kick them, that makes him at least in the convo.

1988 - 82 goals, no finals
1989 - 3, 7, 8, 9 goals in finals - 87 for year
1990 - no finals, but over 70 goals for the year in a bad year
1991 - retired then came back. Unfit.
1992 - Kicked ~dozen goals in finals
1993 - 124 goals - no finals
1994 - 10 goals in finals for 129 for the year
1995 - 4 goals in prelim (and IMO already past his best!)
1996 - cooked - 1 goal in a 10 goal loss

Honestly, Ablett was solid in finals. He only played in 6 finals series. Franklin has played in finals nearly every season of his career. When Ablett played, he was decent most of the time
I'm under the impression you didn't actually see him play all that much, or aware of all the facts at play

Ablett's first finals series was when he was on the cusp of 28, and absolutely dominated in that finals series. Even in a 76 point loss in the Qualifying Final, he worked damn hard

In 1991 he had only half a season with no dedicated pre-season
He following year he came back fully and was AA and kicked 70 goals on the half forward line

In 1995 he was injured. Pinged his hamstring further against Footscray in like Round 21 and at nearly 34, couldn't properly recover for finals.

Franklin has been very good in finals, but not a force for a while. His last good final was against Essendon in 2017

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

1988 - 82 goals, no finals
1989 - 3, 7, 8, 9 goals in finals - 87 for year
1990 - no finals, but over 70 goals for the year in a bad year
1991 - retired then came back. Unfit.
1992 - Kicked ~dozen goals in finals
1993 - 124 goals - no finals
1994 - 10 goals in finals for 129 for the year
1995 - 4 goals in prelim (and IMO already past his best!)
1996 - cooked - 1 goal in a 10 goal loss

Honestly, Ablett was solid in finals. He only played in 6 finals series. Franklin has played in finals nearly every season of his career. When Ablett played, he was decent most of the time
I'm under the impression you didn't actually see him play all that much, or aware of all the facts at play

Ablett's first finals series was when he was on the cusp of 28, and absolutely dominated in that finals series. Even in a 76 point loss in the Qualifying Final, he worked damn hard

In 1991 he had only half a season with no dedicated pre-season
He following year he came back fully and was AA and kicked 70 goals on the half forward line

In 1995 he was injured. Pinged his hamstring further against Footscray in like Round 21 and at nearly 34, couldn't properly recover for finals.

Franklin has been very good in finals, but not a force for a while. His last good final was against Essendon in 2017

He's already admitted he's too young to have seen Ablett play. Ablett retired before he was even born.

 

[MCG-Unit]

Voted Ablett

 

[uranium_death]

He's already admitted he's too young to have seen Ablett play. Ablett retired before he was even born.

So how can he call him a choker if he doesn't know the facts?

For some, football seemingly didn't exist before 2017...

 

[uranium_death]

He dominated 1 of his 6 ish finals series and shat the bed in 3/4 GFs. Like how much worse can you get? Next level is like G Rohan

3 goals in 1992 isn't shitting the bed. It's modest, but solid
In 1994 and 1995, Geelong was dominated. Midfield ineffective
Hard to kick goals when you're starved of opportunities

With respect, Ablett's 1989 Grand Final performance is arguably the greatest Grand Final performance ever. Earned every goal. No cheapies, despite the fact he was playing on Scott Maginness for much of the first half. If not for Chris Langford, would have kicked 11-12. Chris Langford was a great full back

 

[Falcon3518]

3 goals in 1992 isn't shitting the bed. It's modest, but solid
In 1994 and 1995, Geelong was dominated. Midfield ineffective
Hard to kick goals when you're starved of opportunities

With respect, Ablett's 1989 Grand Final performance is arguably the greatest Grand Final performance ever. Earned every goal. No cheapies, despite the fact he was playing on Scott Maginness for much of the first half. If not for Chris Langford, would have kicked 11-12. Chris Langford was a great full back

Yep sure, but you can’t just sweep everything under the rug cause of 89. He had 6 finals campaigns, played many finals and made 4 GFs. You can’t get more opportunity than that.


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[Falcon3518]

I'd say very, very arguably. Ablett's son was a better player for starters.

Overall I agree, but not peak.


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[Falcon3518]

So how can he call him a choker if he doesn't know the facts?

For some, football seemingly didn't exist before 2017...

His stats speak for themselves man. Don’t need to see it he lost.


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[uranium_death]

Yep sure, but you can’t just sweep everything under the rug cause of 89. He had 6 finals campaigns, played many finals and made 4 GFs. You can’t get more opportunity than that.

Geelong was the 2nd best team each time. Their success of the era reflects the fact that there was always a better team. Truth.
That is not Ablett's direct fault

You seem to confuse individual performance with team performance
For somebody who hasn't seemingly actually watched any game that their team is involved in, you are hardly in any position to comment on Ablett's record on anything

In 1994 and 1995, he was stuck in the goal square. The ball did not get down there that much. How is that his fault? If not for the last 4 goals in 1995, both Grand Finals were effectively 80+ point losses each

Pretty hard to have any effect when you're belted all over the ground. That's a team failure - not an individual failure
To make 4 Grand Finals in 7 years with a team that had a weak bottom 6 players relative to their opposition, I'd say Geelong made the best of its opportunities. Of course, if you had been alive at the time, you would have some insight - an insight that stats doesn't provide

 

[My Tilly]

I'd say very, very arguably. Ablett's son was a better player for starters.

Yeh but if you are starting a team and could choose either player in their prime, most are taking a young key forward prodigy over a midfielder. Same reason why most would take prime Carey or Ablett Snr over just about any other league footballer the game has seen. They win more games off their own boot and draw the crowds to the game.

Yep sure, but you can’t just sweep everything under the rug cause of 89. He had 6 finals campaigns, played many finals and made 4 GFs. You can’t get more opportunity than that.

Bit of a difference in the quality of teams Ablett and Geelong faced compared to say . . . . Martin. I mean come on man, Adelaide in 2017 shit themselves and never even made it to finals again after that.
Geelong in 2020 would be the equivalent of St Kilda in 1997 and then you have GWS. A team which lost nine games for the year and scraped through to the big dance. Talk about sheer luck because had Collingwood made it instead, just as they tormented Martin and Richmond in the PF the year previously, different outcome.

Ablett only had Brownless to help alleviate the burden.
Stoneham was gone and it meant the opposition could focus on stopping just one man. He still dominated in a couple of finals (v Carlton & Footscray) but this is why Ablett is winning this poll in a landslide, we're talking about a generational talent who had no flaws on the football field. Dominated as a winger/flanker before dominating as a full forward. Thrived in State of Origin football where he averaged 4 goals per game against the best of the best. Dominated in finals but will forever be knocked for failing to deliver Geelong a premiership.

 

[uranium_death]

Yep sure, but you can’t just sweep everything under the rug cause of 89. He had 6 finals campaigns, played many finals and made 4 GFs. You can’t get more opportunity than that.

Read my posts. Nothing swept. You claim him a choker, but he can't be when he kicked 9.1 against the best team of the era - a team that played in 7 straight Grand Finals, won back to back, contained great depth (Greg Madigan was the only spud) and could have won any of the Grand Finals they lost, bar 1985

 

[Falcon3518]

Yeh but if you are starting a team and could choose either player in their prime, most are taking a young key forward prodigy over a midfielder. Same reason why most would take prime Carey or Ablett Snr over just about any other league footballer the game has seen. They win more games off their own boot and draw the crowds to the game.



Bit of a difference in the quality of teams Ablett and Geelong faced compared to say . . . . Martin. I mean come on man, Adelaide in 2017 s**t themselves and never even made it to finals again after that.
Geelong in 2020 would be the equivalent of St Kilda in 1997 and then you have GWS. A team which lost nine games for the year and scraped through to the big dance. Talk about sheer luck because had Collingwood made it instead, just as they tormented Martin and Richmond in the PF the year previously, different outcome.

Ablett only had Brownless to help alleviate the burden.
Stoneham was gone and it meant the opposition could focus on stopping just one man. He still dominated in a couple of finals (v Carlton & Footscray) but this is why Ablett is winning this poll in a landslide, we're talking about a generational talent who had no flaws on the football field. Dominated as a winger/flanker before dominating as a full forward. Thrived in State of Origin football where he averaged 4 goals per game against the best of the best. Dominated in finals but will forever be knocked for failing to deliver Geelong a premiership.

This is the problem when you dominate. We made the other teams look bad cause we were that good. You think it’s a coincidence that Lions, Hawks, Tigers all achieved b2b and apparently had easier opposition the cats 07-11.

Because you guys didn’t go b2b you left the void open to other teams and made the comp look more competitive than it was. I mean you lost to 08 hawks who were far from world beaters and Saints got a 50 point smashing from a lesser team than Geelong. But you criticise Adelaide 17 who going in were absolute certainties to win it being the minor premiers and won their prelim by 60.

Even you guys in 2020 won your finals by 70 and 40. They were both better than St Kilda in finals. But you don’t rate them for some reason, I think just cause it suits you tbh. Every time geelong don’t get it done it’s cause the opposition were the best in AFL history or some crap.


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[My Tilly]

And yes I’m young.

How old are you by the way?
Please tell me you were around for at least a little time while Ablett was still playing.
Just say you are 37ish and that is good enough for me

 

[Falcon3518]

Read my posts. Nothing swept. You claim him a choker, but he can't be when he kicked 9.1 against the best team of the era - a team that played in 7 straight Grand Finals, won back to back, contained great depth (Greg Madigan was the only spud) and could have won any of the Grand Finals they lost, bar 1985

GAS was in a great team too. That’s not an excuse. They got to 4 GFs man, if that team wasn’t good then the comp was weak af. You can’t have it both ways.


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[My Tilly]

But you criticise Adelaide 17 who going in were absolute certainties to win it being the minor premiers and won their prelim by 60.

Even you guys in 2020 won your finals by 70 and 40. They were both better than St Kilda in finals. But you don’t rate them for some reason, I think just cause it suits you tbh. Every time geelong don’t get it done it’s cause the opposition were the best in AFL history or some crap.

Difference being, Geelong faced Hawthorn in 1989 who were one of the best teams of their era by some distance. They played finals the next season and won yet another flag in 1991.
West Coast were virtually a state team. An entire state all to themselves to pick and choose.
Look at their back line and you compare it to Richmond during the 2017-2020 period. Worsfold, McIntosh, Jakovich, McKenna, Brennan. It was no different with Carlton in the 90's who had Silvagni, Sexton, McKay, Hanna, Christou. These teams were built around defense.

I criticize Adelaide and GWS because they never backed up any of their grand final showings. They disappeared because they showed their true colours by being fortunate to make it through to begin with.
Richmond capitalized and good on them for doing so.

GAS was in a great team too. That’s not an excuse. They got to 4 GFs man, if that team wasn’t good then the comp was weak af. You can’t have it both ways.

lol Great?
Only team that was excellent was 1992. Finished top of the ladder, held a two goal halftime lead but lost it in the third quarter thanks to Peter Matera.
Other than that, awesome top end with Hocking, Couch, Ablett, Bews, Stoneham, Bairstow but poor after that.

 

[Falcon3518]

Difference being, Geelong faced Hawthorn in 1989 who were one of the best teams of their era by some distance. They played finals the next season and won yet another flag in 1991.
West Coast were virtually a state team. An entire state all to themselves to pick and choose.
Look at their back line and you compare it to Richmond during the 2017-2020 period. Worsfold, McIntosh, Jakovich, McKenna, Brennan. It was no different with Carlton in the 90's who had Silvagni, Sexton, McKay, Hanna, Christou. These teams were built around defense.

I criticize Adelaide and GWS because they never backed up any of their grand final showings. They disappeared because they showed their true colours by being fortunate to make it through to begin with.
Richmond capitalized and good on them for doing so.



lol Great?
Only team that was excellent was 1992. Finished top of the ladder, held a two goal halftime lead but lost it in the third quarter thanks to Peter Matera.
Other than that, awesome top end with Hocking, Couch, Ablett, Bews, Stoneham, Bairstow but poor after that.

I think you romanticise past players a little too much. They have all finished their careers but you are comparing them to current players who are still going. That’s why nostalgia bias is a big thing in footy.

Ok so the GAS cats teams weren’t great. But still made to 4 GFs, comp must have been really weak then.


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[My Tilly]

I think you romanticise past players a little too much. They have all finished their careers but you are comparing them to current players who are still going. That’s why nostalgia bias is a big thing in footy.

Ok so the GAS cats teams weren’t great. But still made to 4 GFs, comp must have been really weak then.


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How many of those grand finals you think we make if there was no Ablett?

 

[Falcon3518]

How many of those grand finals you think we make if there was no Ablett?

None, but he’s part of the team so idk what you are getting at. We don’t get any flags with Dusty either. North without Carey?, WC without Judd? Take out somebody’s best player it usually affects the team.


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[Falcon3518]

How old are you by the way?
Please tell me you were around for at least a little time while Ablett was still playing.
Just say you are 37ish and that is good enough for me

25. I’ve never seen so many people being so proud to be old farts before and of course use my age to dismiss everything so they don’t have to put in effort making proper arguments.

I’ve seen replays it’s enough, you using your memory is actually unreliable. Probably why nostalgia clouds your judgment.


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[danster168]

Buddy, it’s not really close. Kicked more goals in a harder era, has a way better finals record, won a flag, double the amount of AAs.

GAS was more “flashy” but really people who think GAS was better is cause of nostalgia. GAS was a finals failure unlike Buddy.


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yeah a harder era in a sense that there is less space yet at the same time a bloody soft era where forwards are getting frees for chopping the arms, hands in the back, etc. These things didn't exist back then.

GAS for me. I think he is the GOAT and yes I've seen him play. Keep in mind that GAS didn't play full forward for all that long.

I don't think it's a silly poll as Franklin is one of the greats but GAS was basically a juiced up version of Gary Ablett Junior.

 

[danster168]

25. I’ve never seen so many people being so proud to be old farts before and of course use my age to dismiss everything so they don’t have to put in effort making proper arguments.

I’ve seen replays it’s enough, you using your memory is actually unreliable. Probably why nostalgia clouds your judgment.


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Gary Ablett senior was 185cm and 97 kgs and could sit on peoples shoulders and could kick goals without even looking at the sticks. Franklin has never been an aerial threat. You have to factor that in. GAS was a threat in the air and on the ground. Franklin, just on the ground. Franklin also didn't have the strength of Ablett. Buddy was an athletic specimen in his own right but I don't think he quite had the shifty-ness of Ablett imo.

 

[Falcon3518]

Gary Ablett senior was 185cm and 97 kgs and could sit on peoples shoulders and could kick goals without even looking at the sticks. Franklin has never been an aerial threat. You have to factor that in. GAS was a threat in the air and on the ground. Franklin, just on the ground. Franklin also didn't have the strength of Ablett. Buddy was an athletic specimen in his own right but I don't think he quite had the shifty-ness of Ablett imo.

Ablett wouldn’t be able to do that in todays defensive systems. 185cm is a midget, pretty much every KPD is taller than him and they double and triple team.


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[Falcon3518]

yeah a harder era in a sense that there is less space yet at the same time a bloody soft era where forwards are getting frees for chopping the arms, hands in the back, etc. These things didn't exist back then.

GAS for me. I think he is the GOAT and yes I've seen him play. Keep in mind that GAS didn't play full forward for all that long.

I don't think it's a silly poll as Franklin is one of the greats but GAS was basically a juiced up version of Gary Ablett Junior.

GAS v GAJ would be a nice poll tbh. I’d probably go with GAJ. Better overall player imo. Didn’t have a better peak but he’s got records that won’t be broken. GAS is like 5th-6th in all time goals. Many would say Lockett was a better forward.


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[Partridge]

Overall I agree, but not peak.

For me Ablett's peak was from 2007 - 2014 inclusive (before his shoulder injury) and he was miles above every other player in the competition. Unlike just about every other star player, his peak was for a long time. It wasn't a two or three season burst.