Preview Changes: R10 vs Melbourne - Crows drop Hamill but keep Mackay

[Mutineer]

Yes, beating Jarryd Lyons by one vote. 19 votes behind the winner. Equal 21st.

Your point?

So when fit he's equal 21 st player in the League, a lot of players behind him.

And don't come at me with the usual cop out Brownlow votes aren't a reasonable assessment of the players year.

 

[GROTTO]

Perhaps we have been devoid of a hard nose coach that is a leader of men ?
Strong in his conviction
Since Blight maybe Walsh could have been

I know it was a very short time to make this call, but I genuinely believe Walsh was.

Even if he didnt take us to a flag, he would have changed the culture of the Club in a very positive way. Which in my opinion is the next biggest thing to winning the flag for us.

 

[feenix67]

So when fit he's equal 21 st player in the League, lot of players behind him

Lets call a spade a spade. The Brownlow is a midfielders award. Aside from 2 ruckmen, every other player ahead of him was a midfielder. So he was the 19th best midfielder in the award.

Reads a bit different when you actually analyse it.

 

[Mutineer]

Lets call a spade a spade. The Brownlow is a midfielders award. Aside from 2 ruckmen, every other player ahead of him was a midfielder. So he was the 19th best midfielder in the award.

Reads a bit different when you actually analyse it.

Keep on, keeping on, I'm enjoying you and your mates keeping on rubbishing him, it's not me that's looking stupid when he continues being rated by the AFL coaches

 

[Murray2503]

The best bit was in the video they put up where Nicks tells him he is going to debut he actually says to him 'consistency is what we want from you, just keep being consistent'

What ROC didn't realise is that or the AFC the definition of consistency means dropping players after 1 game and selecting David Mackay

Translating what Nick's said was "Enjoy your one game. Don't play too well as that will make us look stupid when we drop you next week."

Nick's actually forecasted his dropping in the presser after last week's game. He said about O'Connor " I think we have found a mid for the future." Not the present?

 

[feenix67]

Keep on, keeping on, I'm enjoying you and your mates keeping on rubbishing him, it's not me that's looking stupid when he continues being rated by the AFL coaches

Im just quoting the numbers mate. In 2019 he was rated 19th best midfielder in the league. Lyons, a bloke we refused to play and got rid of for a bag of beans despite him wanting to stay at the club for practically nothing, was voted 20th best. Brad got 2 BOGs that season, and polled in 7 out of 22 games.

He was definitely our best mid that year, but that is what I'm saying - we don't benchmark against the comp. Top 10 players get band 1, he was barely top 20 the year before, then nowhere the following season.

As for the coaches rating him...

 

[DJ75]

Perhaps we have been devoid of a hard nose coach that is a leader of men ?
Strong in his conviction
Since Blight maybe Walsh could have been

So the question is, who is it that is changing their ideas. Who is it, behind the scenes, that keeps on pushing this rubbish?

 

[Crow till I die]

Translating what Nick's said was "Enjoy your one game. Don't play too well as that will make us look stupid when we drop you next week."

Nick's actually forecasted his dropping in the presser after last week's game. He said about O'Connor " I think we have found a mid for the future." Not the present?

I think they may have forecast this scenario during the game last week when they only gave him just over 50% time on ground. He did well when he was on but they certainly managed his minutes and that gives them a convenient card to play this week

 

[Mutineer]

Im just quoting the numbers mate. In 2019 he was rated 19th best midfielder in the league. Lyons, a bloke we refused to play and got rid of for a bag of beans despite him wanting to stay at the club for practically nothing, was voted 20th best. Brad got 2 BOGs that season, and polled in 7 out of 22 games.

He was definitely our best mid that year, but that is what I'm saying - we don't benchmark against the comp. Top 10 players get band 1, he was barely top 20 the year before, then nowhere the following season.

As for the coaches rating him...

View attachment 1133214

LOL

You do realise he didn't play the 1st 4 rounds while serving his suspension, don't you ever accuse me of quoting meaningless stats.

But do carry on it's quite amusing.

 

[feenix67]

So the question is, who is it that is changing their ideas. Who is it, behind the scenes, that keeps on pushing this rubbish?

Culture is intangible. It becomes part of the fabric, group think. Remember when Walsh came in how refreshing it was? It was so counter culture for the Crows.

I think it stems from the Trigg/Craig era and has permeated the club. It will take an equally strong character, as CrowinNT said, to turn that around.

 

[feenix67]

LOL

You do realise he didn't play the 1st 4 rounds while serving his suspension, don't you ever accuse me of quoting meaningless stats.

But do carry on it's quite amusing.

Ummmm he's played 7 games bro

Same as O'Meara

Stengle got 4, Brad got 2.

You dont like stats when they dont serve your narrative. For the record, you came at me with the Brownlow stat - I just analysed it for you. Dont shoot the messenger

 

[DJ75]

Culture is intangible. It becomes part of the fabric, group think. Remember when Walsh came in how refreshing it was? It was so counter culture for the Crows.

I think it stems from the Trigg/Craig era and has permeated the club. It will take an equally strong character, as CrowinNT said, to turn that around.

I've been saying for a long time that Neil Craig's stain remains and is still holding us back. We just can't seem to remove it. Maybe a new building will finally free us from it??

 

[Mutineer]

Ummmm he's played 7 games bro

Same as O'Meara

Stengle got 4, Brad got 2.

You dont like stats when they dont serve your narrative. For the record, you came at me with the Brownlow stat - I just analysed it for you. Dont shoot the messenger

I just don't get people's need to keep denigrating him as a player or go to the lengths some have to bring him into every discussion, so far this season he's going quite well still playing in a team not going a whole lot better than what he left, certainly going a whole lot better than our Captain.

 

[feenix67]

I just don't get people's need to keep denigrating him as a player or go to the lengths some have to bring him into every discussion, so far this season he's going quite well still playing in a team not going a whole lot better than what he left.

I brought him up as a case in point in relation to how we overrate players and dont benchmark. I think he is a very good case.

I wish he had done better and not had all those groin issues. Noone wanted him to succeed more than me. I feel a bit sorry for the lad.

But the facts are the facts.

 

[Crow till I die]

I just don't get people's need to keep denigrating him as a player or go to the lengths some have to bring him into every discussion, so far this season he's going quite well still playing in a team not going a whole lot better than what he left.

The real loser here (apart from us for letting him leave for very little) was Carlolton. The first year we went after Gibbs we offered our 1st rounder and Lyons and that perennial flog SOS laughed at us (and from memory he demanded McGovern and our 1st but I stand corrected - he should have been careful for what he wished for..suckers). he belittled Lyons. Imagine if they took that deal from us..Lyons would have provided a great foil for Cripps in the middle and probably extended his career by another couple of years from the battering he has copped not having a good contested player there to chop out for him. Carlton, the gift that keeps on giving

 

[1990crow]

At the risk of being cursed by Bicks, a classic example of us overrating our players occurred last off season. We go into the trade period thinking we're a lock for Band 1 compo. We get Band 3. For a bloke who our club (whoever votes for the BnF) awarded the Blighty just one year prior.

I think our club is too insular and doesn't do enough benchmarking against other teams/lists/players. It's an arrogant "we play our way, we train our way" mentality. And when we dont measure up on game day, it's a "we just have to work harder, do better for longer". I know we dont hear what goes on behind closed doors, but I actually doubt it's much different. Our club seems to invoke this insular arrogant attitude in everyone who comes on board.

You don't have to be inside the four walls to see the results. Logic would dictate you are correct in their philosophy.

 

[Redline]

Not every week, but consistently poor performances can't be rewarded. As mentioned above, it's a fine balance.

Consistently poor performance have been and continue to be rewarded. Your argument only stacks up if we were a top team and there is a squeeze on for spots.

 

[CrowinNT]

So the question is, who is it that is changing their ideas. Who is it, behind the scenes, that keeps on pushing this rubbish?

It’s just ingrained culture
We have made a reasonable cleanout and some fresh faces but it’s going to take sometime
I admire what Richmond have achieved from the top down
I am still furious of our player selection & management in 2017 and morn the loss of the Grandfinal through weak mindset as well

 

[Scorpus]

There are lost to be concerned about when it comes to these types of selections, but I think there is a bigger issue here.

Whenever we get a new player, they come in and play with a sense of freedom. Dare I say a bit of spunk and enthusiasm. Then we coach it out of them. We end up with a carbon copy of what we already had, rather than what the player was recruited to bring.

Whenever we get a new coach, we get a glimpse of a change in philosophy. Then we somehow manage it out of them. We end up with exactly what we had previously, with the same mistakes made over and over again.

The questions is - how does this lunacy manage to survive despite all the changes??

And we do all of this (and more) then wonder why some of our best young talents have walked straight out the door for the last decade

 

[Scorpus]

I should add that everything people have talked about over the last few pages, you can see we are going down the exact same path with Jake Kelly.

He is Mackay, Van Berlo, Reilly, Douglas, Reilly (etc) version 9.0 or whatever we are up to at this point.

 

[DJ75]

It’s just ingrained culture
We have made a reasonable cleanout and some fresh faces but it’s going to take sometime
I admire what Richmond have achieved from the top down
I am still furious of our player selection & management in 2017 and morn the loss of the Grandfinal through weak mindset as well

But what does that actually mean?

In the selection committee meetings we have all new coaches except for VB who knows the culture and Roo. Who is it that is saying "You know his game performance wasn't great for the last 3 weeks, but gee he trained well this week"? It has to be someone - it isn't the chairs.

 

[CrowinNT]

But what does that actually mean?

In the selection committee meetings we have all new coaches except for VB who knows the culture and Roo. Who is it that is saying "You know his game performance wasn't great for the last 3 weeks, but gee he trained well this week"? It has to be someone - it isn't the chairs.

This is the question we have all been asking re DMac
I suspect Its partly the culture that values “experience” very highly regardless of output. I’m not on match committee but sure as hell would love to be to get the right insight. It’s more than one person and you add in the head coach on these decisions. He’s been selected by every darn one of them

 

[jo172]

So when fit he's equal 21 st player in the League, a lot of players behind him.

And don't come at me with the usual cop out Brownlow votes aren't a reasonable assessment of the players year.

In an 18 team comp 21st is pretty good ...

 

[crows dude]

Nicks in his presser has said O’Connor will be injury sub

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

Why are people surprised? We've been doing this sh*t for years. I'm not even angry. I just want to know the thought process behind it because I really have no idea.

I’m now in this space too. There is no logical rationale for keeping Mackay in at the expense of young long term AFL quality kids.

there are illogical reasons that will come as a response to this post (eg average experience of the side). To me that’s an irrational reason when you’re talking about David Mackay. If you were talking aboutwhy keep Slone in the side then it’sa rational reason.