Do we need another AFL Club or are there too many as it is?

[madmug]

Canberra is an obvious market for a stand alone side.

Just a question as to how many professional teams it can support?
Canberra was prime for it before NRL/RU.
A pity the AFL was only concerned about the short term survival of its broke VFL clubs than about the proper structure of an AFL. Lost opportunity with Canberra.

 

[NoobPie]

The AFL being lumbered with 10 suburban clubs at national level is only due to local political issues. It has SFA to do with running a proper national professional sport.

What? It's got to do with the history and evolution of the Australian football league out of the Victorian football league.

6 of them are genuinely large football clubs, bigger than any club from any other code in the country. Of the other four, one is the oldest professional football club on the planet and the other just won the flag

Any plausible future "expansion" club would be lucky to rival one of the small Melbourne clubs

 

[madmug]

What? It's got to do with the history and evolution of the Australian football league out of the Victorian football league.

6 of them are genuinely large football clubs, bigger than any club from any other code in the country. Of the other four, one is the oldest professional football club on the planet and the other just won the flag

Any plausible future "expansion" club would be lucky to rival one of the small Melbourne clubs

Half the clubs are financial welfare cases. One club has one flag since Federation. One just won a flag after how long?
The draft & salary cap is designed to be socialism for football & some clubs still struggle in one over subscribed market.

 

[fishardansin]

NO. We need to reduce to 12 teams and chuck a whole lot of money into state leagues that also serve as development leagues with juniors. Each team can represent one or two local leagues. They can operate under the umbrella of the AFL with all 6 AFL games live on free to air 1 Friday, 3 Saturday and 2 Sunday. The state leagues can be live on pay tv with one showcase game live on free to air each week.

Chuck enough money at the state league so that it is better to play for them then local footy. In fact you get selected to represent your local league when playing state league. State leagues would be a better place to get ex rugby players into rather than the AFL. Interstate footy would come from players in the state leagues. Smaller Victorian teams who don't make the cut in the AFL will be powerful state league teams. The two new teams will have to go!

Doing this strengthens the game at every level. ... but yeah it'll never happen.

 

[JackFlash]

Tasmania, before Soccer gets its hands on it. I fear the AFL have buggered this opportunity.

 

[madmug]

Tasmania, before Soccer gets its hands on it. I fear the AFL have buggered this opportunity.

The politics of self interest of old VFL clubs is the AFL problem. It doesnt matter how badly run they are, or non competitive in an over subscribed market. The AFL will do as their told.

 

[Kwality]

If we were adding teams we'd be better off adding two and having conferences.

So the best footballers would not be competing across Australia - its a step back to the old days when none of the State comps had ALL the best players.
How far back do you want to take the game - be honest!!! You aint going Forwards , you're in reverse.

 

[bergholt]

Chuck enough money at the state league so that it is better to play for them then local footy.

So are the state league players professional or not? If they're professional then they need to earn somewhere in the range of $60k to $200k, which adds up to an enormous amount of money across 4-6 states of 8-14 teams of 35 players on the list. Current AFL salary cap is a bit more than $200m across all the clubs. You're talking about paying more than that just for the state leagues! How does that get paid for? Especially taking into account there would be less money coming in from broadcast rights, attendances, merch, etc.

 

[madmug]

We only have enough coin for one professional league. It would be stronger if structured properly. The state leagues should be the core of the development process.

 

[fishardansin]

So are the state league players professional or not? If they're professional then they need to earn somewhere in the range of $60k to $200k, which adds up to an enormous amount of money across 4-6 states of 8-14 teams of 35 players on the list. Current AFL salary cap is a bit more than $200m across all the clubs. You're talking about paying more than that just for the state leagues! How does that get paid for? Especially taking into account there would be less money coming in from broadcast rights, attendances, merch, etc.

I'm talking about a decent wage that would supplement a job that allows them to play semi professional. Also, local footy teams would pay some to have them on their books as I see state league teams as representing a league or two. $40k plus another 10k from local side plus work. Some of the gun players like ex AFL players could have other work from the AFL or state league that has them working in the community.

The money is there. Clubs like St Kilda and North will improve the takings of the VFL. There will be TV rights for many games on pay TV. The AFL games will be all like block busters which will draw big crowds and TV ratings. When there is less teams it means the gap between bottom and top will close. There just won't be this elongated rebuilding phase because the team that wins the flag will also get picks 12, 24 and 36. Rookie picks will be gems as the state league will be of a higher standard too.

The state league being a high standard and AFL games often being sold out will also see the crowds at the state league games swell. I envisage the game growing much faster at a grass roots level in NSW and Qld as well. If given time the Aussie Rules should eat rugby as it is a much superior product.

 

[NoobPie]

So are the state league players professional or not? If they're professional then they need to earn somewhere in the range of $60k to $200k, which adds up to an enormous amount of money across 4-6 states of 8-14 teams of 35 players on the list. Current AFL salary cap is a bit more than $200m across all the clubs. You're talking about paying more than that just for the state leagues! How does that get paid for? Especially taking into account there would be less money coming in from broadcast rights, attendances, merch, etc.

Actually, in the short term to mid, raising the Tasmanian salary cap above the sanfl's and subsidising it, might be a good consolation.

Note: I saw madmug in this thread and assumed state league boost talk was about Tasmania

 

[TheKanga]

Cull the league to 12 teams, 22 round season where everyone plays each other home and away. No way do we need more teams.

Ok cool, so WCE can be one of the teams to be culled.

12 teams would be so boring.

 

[footyfan1978]

Ok cool, so WCE can be one of the teams to be culled.

12 teams would be so boring.

Be more exciting. Standard of games would go up with more talent on each side and less hacks getting games.

 

[footyfan1978]

Brisbane Lions
Carlton
Collingwood
East Fremantle
Essendon
Hobart Hawks
Geelong
Glenelg Tigers
GWS Giants
Port Adelaide
Sydney
West Coast Eagles

 

[TheKanga]

Be more exciting. Standard of games would go up with more talent on each side and less hacks getting games.

Yeah ok

Try telling that to the supporter bases of the 6 clubs that would have to fold.

 

[footyfan1978]

Yeah ok

Try telling that to the supporter bases of the 6 clubs that would have to fold.

No folding except for some recent franchises that not been around long enough to really matter.
Other clubs can play in VFA where they came from and club continues.

 

[NoobPie]

I'm talking about a decent wage that would supplement a job that allows them to play semi professional. Also, local footy teams would pay some to have them on their books as I see state league teams as representing a league or two. $40k plus another 10k from local side plus work. Some of the gun players like ex AFL players could have other work from the AFL or state league that has them working in the community.

The money is there. Clubs like St Kilda and North will improve the takings of the VFL. There will be TV rights for many games on pay TV. The AFL games will be all like block busters which will draw big crowds and TV ratings. When there is less teams it means the gap between bottom and top will close. There just won't be this elongated rebuilding phase because the team that wins the flag will also get picks 12, 24 and 36. Rookie picks will be gems as the state league will be of a higher standard too.

The state league being a high standard and AFL games often being sold out will also see the crowds at the state league games swell. I envisage the game growing much faster at a grass roots level in NSW and Qld as well. If given time the Aussie Rules should eat rugby as it is a much superior product.

I've read through your thread your comments more thoroughly and got the complete picture of your professionalised state league model.

You are very correct on one thing - the afl is not going to return to a 12 team competition.

That said, I think there is strong merit in strengthening the second tier and moving it "up the professionalism curve" overtime. I would begin by creating a separate "marquee" cap in the state leagues that pays some subset of players a rookie level salary overtime. In the short term clubs would be subsidised to "fill the gap" between existing revenues and this should be derived from the afl tv rights. Using the back of an envelope, say 5 players per club at 80,000, by, say, 40 clubs, the cost is about $16 million per year (the current distribution to the poorest non expansion club.) it would provide 200 extra players with professional contracts.

under such an approach, the afl could create or promote new clubs in areas that are very unlikely in the mid term to be "afl club" ready. Of course, this must be done fully thinking through impacts on the third tiers

 

[Bulldog1954]

No folding except for some recent franchises that not been around long enough to really matter.
Other clubs can play in VFA where they came from and club continues.

Culling six teams equals hundreds of thousands of people effectively lost to the AFL and millions lost in TV rights. Do you think people will follow their side as closely in the VFA?

 

[footyfan1978]

Culling six teams equals hundreds of thousands of people effectively lost to the AFL and millions lost in TV rights. Do you think people will follow their side as closely in the VFA?

If they care about their club they will.

 

[Bulldog1954]

If they care about their club they will.

I daresay there are many Fitzroy supporters who deeply cared about their club who don't follow the Fitzroy Reds in the ammos all that closely

I just find it strange that so many people think the best way to build the league is to cull other clubs off (never the club they barrack for) and lose hundreds of thousands of people to the game.

 

[footyfan1978]

I daresay there are many Fitzroy supporters who deeply cared about their club who don't follow the Fitzroy Reds in the ammos all that closely

I just find it strange that so many people think the best way to build the league is to cull other clubs off (never the club they barrack for) and lose hundreds of thousands of people to the game.

The league is already built. Has been since 1897. Yes, some Fitzroy supporters have been lost from the game. To be honest, there was not a lot of them even when I was a kid. However all these people that went to games of Norwood, Glenelg, West Adelaide, Sturt, East Freo, South Freo, West Perth, Claremont, Subiaco etc etc,. They already existed and many of them just watch Adelaide, Freo or West Coast in AFL now. Some of them would be more passionate if it was their original club than a franchise. They just re-directed what they watched because the talent on offer for their local club they wanted to watch was diluted to less standard. The standard at top simply been diluted with more clubs.

12 clubs would be a more elite talent and allow for better standard at next level down too.

Anyway , it is not going back to 12 clubs. The AFL do not care about the standard when people do not notice how diluted it is. Was just a fun exercise to name what those 12 clubs might be and see some of the reaction.

 

[coniglio_number1]

Brisbane Lions
Carlton
Collingwood
East Fremantle
Essendon
Hobart Hawks
Geelong
Glenelg Tigers
GWS Giants
Port Adelaide
Sydney
West Coast Eagles

South freo more likely.

 

[footyfan1978]

South freo more likely.

Not against it.



Let em fight it out and decide.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

We have enough teams. The AFL will not cull any teams for the foreseeable future. Expansion in 10 years maybe.

 

[Roylion]

I daresay there are many Fitzroy supporters who deeply cared about their club who don't follow the Fitzroy Reds in the ammos all that closely

They're not the Fitzroy Reds. The Fitzroy (University) Reds disbanded in December 2008.

There are a couple of reasons that many Fitzroy AFL fans don't actively follow their club in the VAFA. Incidentally Fitzroy is still one of the most well supported clubs in the VAFA.

1. There was a twelve year break between Fitzroy leaving the AFL in 1996 and joining the VAFA for the 2009 season, apart from a short involvement in the VFL in 1999-2000 with Coburg.

2. The Brisbane Lions cater for many Fitzroy fans wanting some involvement in the AFL and commemorate Fitzroy's AFL identity. Others wanting involvement with the elite AFL competition went onto support other Melbourne based clubs in that twelve year break and that club remains their primary focus.

3. Others just gave away football completely and now follow other codes.

Had Fitzroy joined the VFL in 1997 in its own right with its colours, emblem etc. intact, it probably would be one of the better supported VFL clubs today as much of the fan base would have moved with them.