Does it take too long for clubs to rebuild their lists?

[mcgarnacle]

s**t thing is a generation of good players have wasted their careers at clubs like Carlton & Melbourne - Murphy, Kreuzer & Jones come to mind. they were unlucky to be very good players selected by clubs who've struggled for a decade.

 

[bungalow_bill]

s**t thing is a generation of good players have wasted their careers at clubs like Carlton & Melbourne - Murphy, Kreuzer & Jones come to mind. they were unlucky to be very good players selected by clubs who've struggled for a decade.

Could have asked to be traded after two years and gone to stronger clubs. But then at the time it looked like Carlton were going places with 3 #1's and Judd

 

[Gavin Excell]

s**t thing is a generation of good players have wasted their careers at clubs like Carlton & Melbourne - Murphy, Kreuzer & Jones come to mind. they were unlucky to be very good players selected by clubs who've struggled for a decade.

Flip side is Isaac Smith at hawks. 3 times premiership player.
Taken pick 19 in the 2010 draft. The pick before - 18 - Carlton used to draft Matthew Watson. Had they used it on Smith its fair to say his career would be markedly different

 

[Catters 070911]

I think a rebuild should take 5 years.

Finals by 3rd year.
Possible GF by 4th year.
Flag by 5th year.

Now, there can be setbacks, like a bad run of injuries, which might put this a year behind. But if a coach is rebuilding, and is in the fifth year of his contract, and the team is still not playing finals, time to go and find someone else who can take them further.

 

[Snake_Baker]

On this, I think the issues are that clubs that have made mistakes in the past re: list management, find that their mistakes keep compounding until they get into a situation that is much harder to extract themselves from. Examples of this are obviously Melbourne and Carlton.

These clubs went too hard and too deep on youth. StKilda also look like they have gone down that path.

 

[jwint43]

Comps been diluted because so much great talent went to gws and Gold Coast. These rebuilds wouldn’t have been as long if you had some of those draft picks running around for the struggling clubs. Not using it as an excuse or saying I don’t want expansion but it’s hurt the competition from a quality standpoint.

 

[Handsuper47]

I gotta hand it to ya Sweet Jesus you sure do know how to start a conversation, but * you post a ton of fluff.

 

[Blue1980]

Thought Robinson was a lost cause at the blues similar to Fevola?



Schache is a dreamer and a loner

Mitch was nowhere near fev in terms of problems. Basically Mick got angry at him and Jeffy for lying about a night out.

 

[Blue1980]

It was a funny draft for talls. All of Schache, Francis, Weideman, Collins and both McKays haven’t done much yet. You’d wait a few more years before writing them off though.

Curnow seems the exception at this stage. Weideman doesn’t look ready yet either. Thing is their all only 20 or so and we know talls take longer to get going generally. Ones like Hogan aren’t the norm.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I gotta hand it to ya Sweet Jesus you sure do know how to start a conversation, but **** you post a ton of fluff.

Define fluff.

 

[RudyBlue]

Relax Hos, the point is about performance. Carlton is the worst performed team of the new century.
The punishment you guys copped smashed your club. And on the field you have never truely recovered up to this point.

It smashed our club and affected it for a few years, but we got Judd and made a few finals series. That generation of players wasn't the worst and some are still playing good footy elsewhere atm.

The thing that's really ruined our club has been the quick fix/messiah culture that hadn't really been dropped until Bolton/SOS came onboard. I'm not saying we won't revert or that things are as good as they can be atm, but they're much better than they were in the past.

 

[Blue1980]

It smashed our club and affected it for a few years, but we got Judd and made a few finals series. That generation of players wasn't the worst and some are still playing good footy elsewhere atm.

The thing that's really ruined our club has been the quick fix/messiah culture that hadn't really been dropped until Bolton/SOS came onboard. I'm not saying we won't revert or that things are as good as they can be atm, but they're much better than they were in the past.

True it wasn’t until everything went completely belly up under malthouse we decided we needed to do things differently.

We had a good side under Ratten but we stuffed it up trading/drafting in that period when we needed a few more pieces to get us to top 4 and a flag. Instead we ended up with a hodgepodge of failed kids and hacks which made up a large proportion of our side from 2014 to the present day.

Now for the first time since 07-08 we actually have a core of talented players under 23. Problem is we hardly have anyone older than that who is any good (only Docherty, Ed Curnow, Kreuzer, Murphy and Simpson would qualify as good)

 

[Lach72]

Firstly, the term rebuild is a cop out. It is simply a buzzword to buy club administrators and coaching staff time before a list gets so bad they get sacked. Hawthorn and Geelong dipped into the national draft in full force probably about once or twice. Hawthorn in 01 and 04, Geelong in 99 and 01 (Selwood pick 7 in 06).

You can’t just keep ‘bottoming out’ (another bullshit buzzword) and accumulating draft picks. By now every BF poster should know draft numbers are a bonus, once they get to AFL level they’re just a bunch of kids vying for a spot with everyone else. Has Swallow, Boyd, McCartin, Weitering or Rayner solved all the problems of their respective clubs?

Hawthorn built a triple premiership team around rookies, late picks, and trades. I don’t think Richmond had a team brimming with top picks either. You can’t just keep pouring nice clean water down rusty pipes, it’ll go in clean but come out looking like s**t.

The club has to foster an environment where success is at the forefront of the club ethos. Again, Hawthorn & Geelong stand out to me. The reason a ‘rebuild’ is preferred is because its easy. My club took the easy route from 07 to 13 before Paul Roos came in and actually started shifting our culture (hasn’t been great thus far in 2018 but definitely better than under Bailey and Neeld).

The hard part is building a culture where you can get the best out of players you need irrespective of draft order. If you need any more proof it’s a load of s**t then look at Carlton & Melbourne. Two perennial basket case clubs were mediocrity has become the norm.

Yeah it's that combination of home grown high end talent and grunt that you may be able to pick up late, and then making the right decisions about who to move on that's key.

our 2013 team was a bit the same, and to be frank our high end picks have usually fizzed, where as a guy like Michael Barlow was key in that run.

 

[amazingjoshy]

I think the "rebuild" and the nature of it is in fact counterproductive and thats why they pretty much dont work.

The problem with the rebuild philosophy is that it is human nature that if you are given an out you will take it. Its why the best umpires in the world cant give a run out decision even when its in or out my 2 metres. Its why when you are given 6 weeks to do an assignment it takes 6 weeks even when its a few hours work.

When you have a 5 year plan or a 3 year plan, or push the we are a young side rebuilding line, you cultivate the idea that its ok for now to suck. When you gift games to kids just because they are young and talented you are saying its enough to just be talented. the problem is before you nw it your in year 4 of the 5 year plan and its not magically all happening because your list has sub-consciously at least been cruising. Waiting for the right time to actually put in and by then its too late.

The biggest reason Richmond had such a turnaround is because when Hardwick was backed in despite a poor year, the message was that there's not going to be any more do overs, no more future plans, you are the guys to do this and the time to do it is now.

Of course you need to bring in talent to improve and high picks helps but you have to do it in a way that doesn't send the message that if we simply get enough games into enough talent we'll be great.

U sir, are spot on. "Rebuilds" (especially 5 year ones) are the biggest fallacy in all of footy. When has one ever worked?

 

[ThirdLegUp]

U sir, are spot on. "Rebuilds" (especially 5 year ones) are the biggest fallacy in all of footy. When has one ever worked?

Bulldogs bottomed out in 2011... premiers 2016




Yes i am being facetious, but couldn't help myself.

 

[Cdog71]

True it wasn’t until everything went completely belly up under malthouse we decided we needed to do things differently.

We had a good side under Ratten but we stuffed it up trading/drafting in that period when we needed a few more pieces to get us to top 4 and a flag. Instead we ended up with a hodgepodge of failed kids and hacks which made up a large proportion of our side from 2014 to the present day.

Now for the first time since 07-08 we actually have a core of talented players under 23. Problem is we hardly have anyone older than that who is any good (only Docherty, Ed Curnow, Kreuzer, Murphy and Simpson would qualify as good)

That side that lost to WC over there in the finals was a great team.
Ratten was pretty attacking and then Malthouse hugged the boundary line.
It's s**t Docherty went down but you guys aren't in as big a hole as Melbourne were.

 

[Lach72]

Success in AFL is simply down to a combination of good management, good drafting and luck. If we take Freo as an example, we've had bad luck in that 2-3 of our first round picks in the last few years have had to retire early due to illness and injury (Morabito, Pitt), and if we bounce back relatively quickly - and the signs are looking promising - I'm sure the narrative will be that our top-end drafts (especially this year) are the reason. But, the fact is that if we do bounce back into regular finals contention soon the success will be built on good drafting outside of the first round - Walters (53), Fyfe (20), Neale (58), Darcy (38), Blakely (34), A Pearce (37), Luke Ryan (66), Banfield (Rookie), Crowden (59); combined with good free trading (Matera, Wilson, Hamling, McCarthy, Bennell - please please).

Yeah. Morabito carrying on on the same trajectory he started on, would have him bossing the midfield next to Fyfe. Pitt and Josh Simpson adding that disposal class.
Even go back...if Rhys Palmer doesn't snap Michael Barlow's leg in half he may have won a Brownlow...Barlow as the aging mid is something that I wish I could've seen. Instead we carried potatoes like Suban and Danyle instead of keeping him

 

[demondavey]

U sir, are spot on. "Rebuilds" (especially 5 year ones) are the biggest fallacy in all of footy. When has one ever worked?

It never has. And it never will. Cue Carlton and Melbourne. The rebuilding specialists who are still s**t.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

U sir, are spot on. "Rebuilds" (especially 5 year ones) are the biggest fallacy in all of footy. When has one ever worked?

Hawks 2004-2008? When Clarkson first arrived it was pretty a brutal youth only policy. After 08 it seemed to me more of a trawl through what's available to find players to fill holes by whatever means.

 

[captain blood 17]

It smashed our club and affected it for a few years, but we got Judd and made a few finals series. That generation of players wasn't the worst and some are still playing good footy elsewhere atm.

The thing that's really ruined our club has been the quick fix/messiah culture that hadn't really been dropped until Bolton/SOS came onboard. I'm not saying we won't revert or that things are as good as they can be atm, but they're much better than they were in the past.

Injuries have smashed you guys this year and we can’t really start judging SOS’s recruitment until next year or the year after.
You just gotta stick fat with the team.


Sent from my iPad using righteous Bhodi manpower

 

[falcons2]

Every team is in a constant state of building. This is why it's so hard if you are down the bottom. Take a look at club lists from 2011 - 7 years ago. Everyone has had massive turnover and change. Given this, a 'rebuild' should never be more than seven years.
The greatest difficulty is 17 other clubs are doing the exact same thing.
As other posters have correctly pointed out, 'rebuilding' is an excuse for poor planning and preparation.
Games have been gifted to players not ready mentally or physically.

Interesting the clubs most people have referred to in this thread are Carlton and Melbourne. One was caught tanking and the other everyone except those at AFL house knew they tanked.
Actually I don't think either of these clubs will be too bad in 2018. Yes they both had a shocking round 4 but they can learn from it and improve.

 

[craffles]

So many hawthorn fans on social media claiming they have rebuilt already.

Funny that they still have the 2nd oldest list in the comp

 

[demondavey]

Hawks 2004-2008? When Clarkson first arrived it was pretty a brutal youth only policy. After 08 it seemed to me more of a trawl through what's available to find players to fill holes by whatever means.

They only really dipped into the draft once or twice. Hodge, Mitchell in 01. Franklin, Lewis, Roughead in 04.

 

[bungalow_bill]

They only really dipped into the draft once or twice. Hodge, Mitchell in 01. Franklin, Lewis, Roughead in 04.

Four first round picks in 2005 & overall 2 priority picks

 

[demondavey]

Four first round picks in 2005 & overall 2 priority picks

Birchall and?