Does it take too long for clubs to rebuild their lists?

[Leeda]

Yes they did. As a matter of fact they recovered from it 10 years ago.
Practically everybody involved at the club during that time has long disappeared. They were punished for a few years and moved on from it.

at least they are cogniscent of the fact that it is the people who need to be weeded out and then it takes a little while to settle into a
new brand of operation. chop chop...

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Carlton might already have the talent they need. Nobody was saying Cotchin, Martin, Rance and Riewoldt were going to lead Richmond back to the top in 2010. They couldn't see it.

This is why I’m willing to give Bolts some time. Richmond drafted their core from 2006-2009. Hawthorn drafted their core from 2001-2004. The Cats had their superdraft in 2001 and picked up Scarlett a few years prior.

If Carlton’s core is to be Cripps, Curnow, SPS, Fisher, Weitering, McKay etc then they must be allowed to develop and grow for a sustained time (6-8 years atleast (~2022)). J hope it doesn’t take that long but I also hope we don’t take shortcuts and butcher all the potential we drafted. I’m not saying all those boys will come on (I have my doubts on a few) but they are all extremely talented individuals.

Chopping and changing has never worked for any club let alone Carlton. Bolts needs Dimma like support as it’s a monumental job.

 

[branedotorg]

When was the “next generation”? Ratten’s last year was 2012 and the list included Murphy, Gibbs, Simpson, Kreuzer, Betts, Henderson, Waite, Garlett, Curnow, Casboult and Touhy. It’s now six years later and all of those players are still very capable, quality senior AFL players. So it’s not as if the team had no future six years ago.

The whole losing of their shit around Ratten and the Malthouse debacle ruined any chance of success.

yes, but the group younger than that failed utterly and our trading was equally poor

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-carlton-blues?year=2010

there's only four players left at carlton from draft years 2008-2014, i think 3 were rookie picks.

most clubs blow a draft or two, we underperformed for almost a decade.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Relax Hos, the point is about performance. Carlton is the worst performed team of the new century.
The punishment you guys copped smashed your club. And on the field you have never truely recovered up to this point.


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I don't think any Carlton supporter would argue that, but the idea that the salary cap breach still affects the club to this day is complete bullshit.

We had our chance 2008 moving forward. We were rebuilding nicely, only to turn our back on the 'finishing touches'. As a result any success we were chasing was unsustainable. That was a sign of impatience, poor management and poor drafting.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

yes, but the group younger than that failed utterly and our trading was equally poor

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-carlton-blues?year=2010

there's only four players left at carlton from draft years 2008-2014, i think 3 were rookie picks.

most clubs blow a draft or two, we underperformed for almost a decade.

Make that six. I dived into this earlier in the thread.

Levi Casboult (2010), Ed Curnow (2011), Sam Rowe (2011), Nick Graham (2012), Patrick Cripps (2013) and Ciaran Byrne (2013).

Ones in bold were rookie picks.

 

[Leeda]

This is why I’m willing to give Bolts some time. Richmond drafted their core from 2006-2009. Hawthorn drafted their core from 2001-2004. The Cats had their superdraft in 2001 and picked up Scarlett a few years prior.

If Carlton’s core is to be Cripps, Curnow, SPS, Fisher, Weitering, McKay etc then they must be allowed to develop and grow for a sustained time (6-8 years atleast (~2022)). J hope it doesn’t take that long but I also hope we don’t take shortcuts and butcher all the potential we drafted. I’m not saying all those boys will come on (I have my doubts on a few) but they are all extremely talented individuals.

Chopping and changing has never worked for any club let alone Carlton. Bolts needs Dimma like support as it’s a monumental job.

get over yourself.. you don't need to chop the coach yet, you don't need to chop the players either... that work was done over the past
three or so years, what I am saying is that you need to stick to the group, chop the lateral instincts of being too defensive and then
get on with it. chop when you need to but the game plan might be right, the players might b right but perhaps one or two players don't
suit and then you get on with it... Bolts will know what I am saying..

 

[Furn2]

I think the "rebuild" and the nature of it is in fact counterproductive and thats why they pretty much dont work.

The problem with the rebuild philosophy is that it is human nature that if you are given an out you will take it. Its why the best umpires in the world cant give a run out decision even when its in or out my 2 metres. Its why when you are given 6 weeks to do an assignment it takes 6 weeks even when its a few hours work.

When you have a 5 year plan or a 3 year plan, or push the we are a young side rebuilding line, you cultivate the idea that its ok for now to suck. When you gift games to kids just because they are young and talented you are saying its enough to just be talented. the problem is before you nw it your in year 4 of the 5 year plan and its not magically all happening because your list has sub-consciously at least been cruising. Waiting for the right time to actually put in and by then its too late.

The biggest reason Richmond had such a turnaround is because when Hardwick was backed in despite a poor year, the message was that there's not going to be any more do overs, no more future plans, you are the guys to do this and the time to do it is now.

Of course you need to bring in talent to improve and high picks helps but you have to do it in a way that doesn't send the message that if we simply get enough games into enough talent we'll be great.

 

[bungalow_bill]

People are forgetting 2 distinct periods when we lost players, malthouse era and post malthouse.

Malthouse was stupid and let talented guys like Betts, Robinson, Laidler and Garlett go for nothing, just out of spite in the latter 3 cases as he didn’t like them. Very moronic list management, you don’t let talent go for nothing. (Waite also left in this time, but he wanted out)

Then with the list rooted we had no choice but to try and go to the draft and get young talent in from other clubs to get a new group coming through. In this time we have got good returns on all of Menzel, Henderson, Bell, Tuohy and Gibbs.

Menzel got us Plowman and Kerridge (plus 3 other GWS guys)

Hendo got us McKay (who knows how that turns out)

Bell got us half of Charlie Curnow (success)

Tuohy enabled us to get Marchbank and Pickett (looks good so far, as long as both can stay fit)

Gibbs got us O’Brien and Kennedy (way too early to tell, Kennedy playing injured and hasn’t even played 20 games)

We won’t have a clear view of whether this has post salty malty period has worked for at least another 2-3 years. No doubt it’s effecting is short term (though im sure we still wouldn’t be great now if we still had the players we have lost since 2015)

Thought Robinson was a lost cause at the blues similar to Fevola?

Hard to say

Schache sounds like he is miles away

Schache is a dreamer and a loner

 

[Ron The Bear]

When you have a 5 year plan or a 3 year plan, or push the we are a young side rebuilding line, you cultivate the idea that its ok for now to suck.

I'm sure that's not the message internally. Players have to filter out the media or they'd go crazy.

Thing is, Carlton isn't that young right now, they're just young relative to the rest of the competition. Simpson can't go on forever and Murphy turns 31 this season. There's plenty of filler in their 25+ brigade; more turnover is needed to ensure they don't stagnate early. "42 in 3" notwithstanding, I see plenty more change ahead before they return to finals.

Although it's been cast as spin, their supporters do need to be patient.

 

[rado]

I’m not sure there needs to be any tweaking, rather club stability and patient development of talent, draft or trade. Patience is key, however when clubs become impatient and start taking shortcuts this leads to years in the wilderness.

The media scrutiny of performance, players, coaches, board etc. cause clubs to blink, twitch and jump at shadows which must be so draining and distracting for a club.

At the tigers, our past rebuilds have been derailed by many factors, not least of all a twitchy club and lack of proper player development. I’m convinced many of our draftees over a number of years were not developed properly and this in part was caused by an impatient and desperate club.

 

[TommyD13]

The keys to having a successful rebuild is to ensure your top selections are ready to go midfielders or forwards with class. Defenders should never be taken with high selections as defence is more of a physical and tactical aspect to it rather than pure football talent. Defence relies on system then talent while attack relies on talent and then system. The other key is to keep your key players. Take Carlton as an example. If they had decided to select Clayton Oliver instead of Jacob Weitering and then kept hold of Bryce Gibbs you all of a sudden have a much much better side. And you also need some luck with injuries so say the get Docherty back as well.
Imagine a team which plays a wonderful defensive system as Carlton did last year with a key rotation of seven that play in the backline, made up of players who are not necessarily the most talented but know a system and a structure. Add on top of this a midfield and forward line which contains Cripps, Gibbs, Murphy, Curnow, and Oliver, Kruezer and Casboult, you all of a sudden have a team which is knocking on the door of finals and is not losing to North Melbourne by 85 points.


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[blitzer]

The competition has never been more even than it is right now. Not a single team has managed to win 4 consecutive games. Only 2 winless teams and both already have a stockpile of young talent (which they are tirelessly telling us about on Bigfooty so clearly they can't be that bad).
An incredible 14 teams out of 18 have at least 2 wins.

Basically once you get 5-6 elite players and you have a good game plan, you are a chance to win a premiership in today's environment.

Really can't see why we need to add further assistance to teams at the bottom in terms of draft picks etc.
Where the AFL should assist is under-resourced teams that need help off-field.

Development of players is the number one attribute of successful sides in the long term. Not getting x number of top draft picks.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I don't want artificial help. I would be happy for priority picks to not exist. If and when we get back up there, I want to remember the hard work it took, not charity.

Carlton have turned over valuable commodities to rebuild an entire list quickly. They have replaced older good players with a few older okay players just to keep some experience in the side.

Short term it hurts us. This year, injuries have meant we have to play too many youngsters. We've had a terrible run with injuries during this rebuild and it has hurt our consistency and structure.

Start getting these youngsters to the 50-80 game mark and have a decent run of health and I think many will be surprised by how fast we might come on.

 

[Leeda]

Consistency of message.

 

[Leeda]

Consistency of message.

Well as long as that message is 'win at all costs...darn this gets tiring..

 

[Ants]

He seems injury prone, just hope that changes soon. He only turned 20 in December, but you would want at least signs of something this season and to be a solid contributor next season.

I’m not holding my breath and if I had to guess I don’t think he will make it. Rumour is Bolts doesn’t think he’s hard enough at it

Schache is a similar age and seems to have a similar problem, what is it with recent softish big guys? Do they just dominate due to size when their younger then can’t hack it?

It was a funny draft for talls. All of Schache, Francis, Weideman, Collins and both McKays haven’t done much yet. You’d wait a few more years before writing them off though.

 

[Schauermann]

No. I just doesn't work out all the time.

 

[vozzon]

Every club could say things like that, Hawthorn could have Joel selwood but went for Mitch thorp.

Our recruitment wasn’t has from 2002-08 actually, and that formed the basis for the side which made the finals 09-11.

Thing is it all went to crap when we tried to either add experience in or draft from 09-14 (best trades were getting first round pick and Hendo for fevola, and effectively getting docherty for Hampson).

Thats fair enough, my point was more about the list balance and the players you let go but some of the decisions when malthouse was there ddnt turn out well in addition to some bad drafting/developing.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Rebuilding is a statement that the current list has a very limited future. That means that either you have had bad luck, or poor management. You can't do anything if injuries, accidents etc screw you. But usually it's about good management of the club.

Posters that start with drafting are, IMHO, starting toward the end of the issue. Get you senior management right, a good long term strategy, with solid analysis capability and quality middle management then the rest tends to flow. You create an atmosphere where good ideas flourish and are rewarded. Mistakes are learning opportunities and problems are opportunities to improve things.

If the club loses its way, becomes dominated by one clique or personality, and/or lose quality people it will face a long climb up. The list is the easiest part of an AFL club to get right. Every year you can easily bring in 5 players, and develop them. Get that right and very quickly you have a great list. Getting that right is the result of a good drafting group, great development, solid coaching, good team values and culture, capable support, and a sense of vision for the team. That requires $ and time to build. That requires a vision and long term planning.

QED

 

[GreyCrow]

Rebuilding is a statement that the current list has a very limited future. That means that either you have had bad luck, or poor management. You can't do anything if injuries, accidents etc screw you. But usually it's about good management of the club.

Posters that start with drafting are, IMHO, starting toward the end of the issue. Get you senior management right, a good long term strategy, with solid analysis capability and quality middle management then the rest tends to flow. You create an atmosphere where good ideas flourish and are rewarded. Mistakes are learning opportunities and problems are opportunities to improve things.

If the club loses its way, becomes dominated by one clique or personality, and/or lose quality people it will face a long climb up. The list is the easiest part of an AFL club to get right. Every year you can easily bring in 5 players, and develop them. Get that right and very quickly you have a great list. Getting that right is the result of a good drafting group, great development, solid coaching, good team values and culture, capable support, and a sense of vision for the team. That requires $ and time to build. That requires a vision and long term planning.

QED

Good post. It used to be said you needed the 5 quality spine players to contend most years. Now its more the 5 Pillars - Board , Management , Coach, Players and Volunteers. All of these need to be rowing in the same direction. If the Board back the Management and Management backs the Coach , or trusts the Coach then you are nearly there. How many times have we heard ' he has lost the players' sometimes it can be a new Coach. People think Volunteers arent important, but they are the life of the club, without them or if you upset them then they drop off or they cause cancers to spread by whispers or by attitude.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Does it take too long for clubs to rebuild their lists?

Only the bad ones

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Only the bad ones

On this, I think the issues are that clubs that have made mistakes in the past re: list management, find that their mistakes keep compounding until they get into a situation that is much harder to extract themselves from. Examples of this are obviously Melbourne and Carlton.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Thankfully clubs have resisted the AFL's push to introduce mid-year trading.

I'm really at a loss as to how they thought it would even up the comp. The top teams would just continually pick the eyes out of lower clubs, and it would give players yet another window to abandon interstate clubs.

It would, however, provide another event for the AFL to market, televise, etc.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

The keys to having a successful rebuild is to ensure your top selections are ready to go midfielders or forwards with class. Defenders should never be taken with high selections as defence is more of a physical and tactical aspect to it rather than pure football talent. Defence relies on system then talent while attack relies on talent and then system. The other key is to keep your key players. Take Carlton as an example. If they had decided to select Clayton Oliver instead of Jacob Weitering and then kept hold of Bryce Gibbs you all of a sudden have a much much better side. And you also need some luck with injuries so say the get Docherty back as well.
Imagine a team which plays a wonderful defensive system as Carlton did last year with a key rotation of seven that play in the backline, made up of players who are not necessarily the most talented but know a system and a structure. Add on top of this a midfield and forward line which contains Cripps, Gibbs, Murphy, Curnow, and Oliver, Kruezer and Casboult, you all of a sudden have a team which is knocking on the door of finals and is not losing to North Melbourne by 85 points.


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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. No recruiter takes Oliver over Weitering that year and Brisbane are the only team who wouldn’t have chose him at 1 (due to Schache). IIRC Oliver wasn’t even a consensus top 10 selection until really late and he was seen as a slight reach at 4 by many. Was great drafting by the Dees.

FWIW I can still see Weitering becoming a more valuable player than Oliver, especially for Carlton as we already have Cripps. He perhaps won’t reach the same highs as Oliver but gun KPD (Rance, Talia) are really important if you want to be a good side. He has shown he has the ability to play at AFL level, he deserves some time now.

 

[Kwality]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. No recruiter takes Oliver over Weitering that year and Brisbane are the only team who wouldn’t have chose him at 1 (due to Schache). IIRC Oliver wasn’t even a consensus top 10 selection until really late and he was seen as a slight reach at 4 by many. Was great drafting by the Dees.

FWIW I can still see Weitering becoming a more valuable player than Oliver, especially for Carlton as we already have Cripps. He perhaps won’t reach the same highs as Oliver but gun KPD (Rance, Talia) are really important if you want to be a good side. He has shown he has the ability to play at AFL level, he deserves some time now.

Weitering will be a gun around the 80 game mark, looks to be injured IMHO from watching him on TV.

Looking forward to watching him this weekend.