Coach Fages and the coaching group

[martinson]

Fagan has over the years fallen back to the usual depth guys that do a reasonable job.
Answerth, Fort, Joyce, Madden, Prior, Sharp, Tunstill and Robertson
Tunstill and Robertson may still make a best 22 at some stage but i am not very confident of that happening.

I think our biggest mistake in the past 3 years is not finding a good player in the VFL ranks to draft.
I would rather that than our last pick in the draft. Even a pick in the late 30's onwards if the right player presents.
It may take a few tries, but you should be able to find a suitable player for a needs position.

Yes. Other clubs have done this successfully.

 

[McIvor]

Fagan has over the years fallen back to the usual depth guys that do a reasonable job.
Answerth, Fort, Joyce, Madden, Prior, Sharp, Tunstill and Robertson
Tunstill and Robertson may still make a best 22 at some stage but i am not very confident of that happening.

I think our biggest mistake in the past 3 years is not finding a good player in the VFL ranks to draft.
I would rather that than our last pick in the draft. Even a pick in the late 30's onwards if the right player presents.
It may take a few tries, but you should be able to find a suitable player for a needs position.

Or even rookies of other clubs that never got a look in playing state league footy. We only need to look at our own success many years ago plucking Joel Patfull from Ports ressies.

 

[SizeMatters]

Fagan biggest issue is that he doesn't trust his young players to do meaningful roles in the senior side... impacting their development. He just sees anyone outside of his 'ideal' best 16 or so as role players. Unless you are a top 10 pick you may as well just accept you'll only ever be a role player in Fagan's eyes. No meaningful minutes in the firsts and if you do you're just playing a bit part role.
Sure it's great for first year or second year players but doing this over many years isn't ideal. Give them more ownership even if for a few games a year against s**t clubs like North or Weagles. It's how you get the likes of Robertson, Tunstill, Prior, Answerth just stagnating and not improving.

I've always posted that I like Fagan as a person manager but I don't like him as a coach.

 

[buttermuffs]

Fagan biggest issue is that he doesn't trust his young players to do meaningful roles in the senior side... impacting their development. He just sees anyone outside of his 'ideal' best 16 or so as role players. Unless you are a top 10 pick you may as well just accept you'll only ever be a role player in Fagan's eyes. No meaningful minutes in the firsts and if you do you're just playing a bit part role.
Sure it's great for first year or second year players but doing this over many years isn't ideal. Give them more ownership even if for a few games a year against s**t clubs like North or Weagles. It's how you get the likes of Robertson, Tunstill, Prior, Answerth just stagnating and not improving.

I've always posted that I like Fagan as a person manager but I don't like him as a coach.

I don’t think this is necessarily true.

Kiddy Coleman started as a fringe guy and by the end of last season to this year he has 100% been the focal point of our attack out back.

Payne was a fringe player as well and by round six last year he was tasked to play on the top key forwards and was barely losing a one on one.

Wilmot has slotted in beautifully and made great impact. He and Coleman kicked out Rich.

Other young guys like Starcevich and Bailey used to be outside the core group but worked their way into it.

Answerth actually had a decent place in the side for a year but his disposal saw him lose his place to the likes of Coleman when he switched to halfback.

Robertson has had a lot of opportunities and seemed to have a spot after finals in 2022 but then we got Dunkley and Ashcroft and he lost it again.

Fletcher, like Wilmot, came in and outplayed the likes of Sharp and Prior to get the wing/halfback spot in the side.

Lohmann in his games have never seemed to outplay Charlie, Linc, Rayner and Bailey and just doesn’t seem to have the scoreboard impact.

Tunstill just seems panicked whenever I see him play in the seniors if I’m honest.

Oscar started out as a fringe player and worked his way into being first ruck.

I do think Fagan is reluctant to drop his preferred players, but I also think that those players are going to outplay their potential replacements in 75% of games played.

 

[Nunez]

I don’t think this is necessarily true.

Kiddy Coleman started as a fringe guy and by the end of last season to this year he has 100% been the focal point of our attack out back.

Payne was a fringe player as well and by round six last year he was tasked to play on the top key forwards and was barely losing a one on one.

Wilmot has slotted in beautifully and made great impact. He and Coleman kicked out Rich.

Other young guys like Starcevich and Bailey used to be outside the core group but worked their way into it.

Answerth actually had a decent place in the side for a year but his disposal saw him lose his place to the likes of Coleman when he switched to halfback.

Robertson has had a lot of opportunities and seemed to have a spot after finals in 2022 but then we got Dunkley and Ashcroft and he lost it again.

Fletcher, like Wilmot, came in and outplayed the likes of Sharp and Prior to get the wing/halfback spot in the side.

Lohmann in his games have never seemed to outplay Charlie, Linc, Rayner and Bailey and just doesn’t seem to have the scoreboard impact.

Tunstill just seems panicked whenever I see him play in the seniors if I’m honest.

Oscar started out as a fringe player and worked his way into being first ruck.

I do think Fagan is reluctant to drop his preferred players, but I also think that those players are going to outplay their potential replacements in 75% of games played.

Quit letting logic and fact get in the way of outrage.

 

[martinson]

Quit letting logic and fact get in the way of outrage

I agree with most of what Buttermuffs posted and tbh anyone could see Coleman ,Payne ,Wilmot and Bailey were going to be Senior players and that Answerth was a bit of a liability.

Overall Fagan has done a really good job with what we had and been successful in recruiting some guns . We probably haven't been so successful in bringing on some players. But we've been in contention and when that's the case you play your best team. It's also conjectural whether they were/are any good anyway.

When you get injuries you find out about your depth. None of it's an exact science . It's easy to be critical. I just wish we'd won the flag last year and no one would have a problem. What we are missing are a couple of good solid second stringers who you know can plug holes when you cop injuries and maybe even become regulars. We need another Cal Ah Chee and Ryan Lester.

 

[Tom14]

I don’t think this is necessarily true.

Kiddy Coleman started as a fringe guy and by the end of last season to this year he has 100% been the focal point of our attack out back.

Payne was a fringe player as well and by round six last year he was tasked to play on the top key forwards and was barely losing a one on one.

Wilmot has slotted in beautifully and made great impact. He and Coleman kicked out Rich.

Other young guys like Starcevich and Bailey used to be outside the core group but worked their way into it.

Answerth actually had a decent place in the side for a year but his disposal saw him lose his place to the likes of Coleman when he switched to halfback.

Robertson has had a lot of opportunities and seemed to have a spot after finals in 2022 but then we got Dunkley and Ashcroft and he lost it again.

Fletcher, like Wilmot, came in and outplayed the likes of Sharp and Prior to get the wing/halfback spot in the side.

Lohmann in his games have never seemed to outplay Charlie, Linc, Rayner and Bailey and just doesn’t seem to have the scoreboard impact.

Tunstill just seems panicked whenever I see him play in the seniors if I’m honest.

Oscar started out as a fringe player and worked his way into being first ruck.

I do think Fagan is reluctant to drop his preferred players, but I also think that those players are going to outplay their potential replacements in 75% of games played.

The one that is a bit forgotten too is Witherden. Was actually quite cold and ruthless; basically his papers were stamped after the GWS final and we spent the next year looking for replacements/playing others.

 

[dlanod]

I agree with most of what Buttermuffs posted and tbh anyone could see Coleman ,Payne ,Wilmot and Bailey were going to be Senior players and that Answerth was a bit of a liability.

Coleman struggled with fitness for several years. Payne was average to poor when played for several years. Bailey's disposal was a bit of a shocker in his draft year and early listed years. If the claim is that they were always going to be quality players it's ignoring the development they've made and a bit of revisionist history.

 

[martinson]

Coleman struggled with fitness for several years. Payne was average to poor when played for several years. Bailey's disposal was a bit of a shocker in his draft year and early listed years. If the claim is that they were always going to be quality players it's ignoring the development they've made and a bit of revisionist history.

Don't totally agree it's revisionist . Every player needs development. That's a given. The first time I saw Coleman he was weaving through traffic like a veteran . Bailey we could see had the jets for whatever his deficiencies were when he arrived. Quigley was drumming on about Payne from the get go but he's one I could see you might think he's got quite a bit to work on. And still has

No one expected them to come in and make much impact but with just normal development they had the qualities to get them there. IMO.

 

[Tom14]

Coleman struggled with fitness for several years. Payne was average to poor when played for several years. Bailey's disposal was a bit of a shocker in his draft year and early listed years. If the claim is that they were always going to be quality players it's ignoring the development they've made and a bit of revisionist history.

As recently as the Hawks game last year Coleman was the sub (dumb decision by Fages but maybe needed a nudge to get his act together or something).

 

[martinson]

As recently as the Hawks game last year Coleman was the sub (dumb decision by Fages but maybe needed a nudge to get his act together or something).

It was only when we worked out he was a backman that he really blossomed. I can remember when we played him forward or as the sub and a couple of us were scratching our heads thinking what's wrong with him ,he's better than this . But obviously fitness was a factor.

 

[irel]

Oh dear. I can hear the outrage. "I'm shouted down again."

For many years in Fagan's initial tenure we were one of the youngest teams in the league. If that is not putting your trust in the young ones, what is?

 

[Lionheart182]

Oh dear. I can hear the outrage. "I'm shouted down again."

For many years in Fagan's initial tenure we were one of the youngest teams in the league. If that is not putting your trust in the young ones, what is.

But what about the reserves players who I say are deserving of a spot?

 

[martinson]

Oh dear. I can hear the outrage. "I'm shouted down again."

For many years in Fagan's initial tenure we were one of the youngest teams in the league. If that is not putting your trust in the young ones, what is.

But that was all he had. He had to. He did it well. And was able to induce top quality players to come in time

All I've done is agree mostly with what has been said .

It's not another one of those you're either with us or against us blogs is it.

 

[SizeMatters]

I don’t think this is necessarily true.

Kiddy Coleman started as a fringe guy and by the end of last season to this year he has 100% been the focal point of our attack out back.

Payne was a fringe player as well and by round six last year he was tasked to play on the top key forwards and was barely losing a one on one.

Wilmot has slotted in beautifully and made great impact. He and Coleman kicked out Rich.

Other young guys like Starcevich and Bailey used to be outside the core group but worked their way into it.

Answerth actually had a decent place in the side for a year but his disposal saw him lose his place to the likes of Coleman when he switched to halfback.

Robertson has had a lot of opportunities and seemed to have a spot after finals in 2022 but then we got Dunkley and Ashcroft and he lost it again.

Fletcher, like Wilmot, came in and outplayed the likes of Sharp and Prior to get the wing/halfback spot in the side.

Lohmann in his games have never seemed to outplay Charlie, Linc, Rayner and Bailey and just doesn’t seem to have the scoreboard impact.

Tunstill just seems panicked whenever I see him play in the seniors if I’m honest.

Oscar started out as a fringe player and worked his way into being first ruck.

I do think Fagan is reluctant to drop his preferred players, but I also think that those players are going to outplay their potential replacements in 75% of games played.

They all got in due to injuries to Fagan's pets or we were in the early Fagan years and he had to pump games into them as we had no one else. why hasn't he gone back to pumping games into youth that deserve it? Most of the blokes you rattled off have not progressed in years due to being played out of position and instead having Lyons jog around instead!

 

[irel]

But that was all he had. He had to. He did it well. And was able to induce top quality players to come in time

All I've done is agree mostly with what has been said .

It's not another one of those you're either with us or against us blogs is it.

Fagan could have chosen to go down the recruiting/drafting mostly senior players, instead he chose to place his trust in youth development. He has done a masterful job of that. We are in a slump no doubt and it could be for reasons other than football, as we have recently learned.

Staythe course people, things will turn for us. Trust in Fagan.

 

[martinson]

They all got in due to injuries to Fagan's pets or we were in the early Fagan years and he had to pump games into them as we had no one else. why hasn't he gone back to pumping games into youth that deserve it? Most of the blokes you rattled off have not progressed in years due to being played out of position and instead having Lyons jog around instead!

I think the issue's a bit more complex.

We've continued to put faith in the players we have because no one's banging the door down as Fagan intimated in the PC. But more to the point we've been in contention and got to the GF and when you're going like that you don't want to risk losing a game.

All coaches are the same . They hate losing games when they're near the top of the ladder.

If you've got no hope you're happy to put all the development you can into borderline players provided you think your contract's watertight.

 

[BangyBangy]

They all got in due to injuries to Fagan's pets or we were in the early Fagan years and he had to pump games into them as we had no one else. why hasn't he gone back to pumping games into youth that deserve it? Most of the blokes you rattled off have not progressed in years due to being played out of position and instead having Lyons jog around instead!

Sorry Sizey, but that's a harsh take.

Why hasn't he pumped games into youth that deserve it? We got within a kick of a premiership last year.

Give the guy some credit. In seven years we've gone from absolute laughing stock to grand final.

 

[Kickback Flip]

Daniel Rich

10

Daniel Rich

Age

33

Ht

183cm

Wt

95kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

12.6

5star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.2

5star

MG

430.3

5star

D

14.9

4star

K

13.1

5star

HB

1.8

1star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.0

2star

MG

384.3

5star

D

16.2

4star

K

10.4

4star

HB

5.8

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

5.2

5star

gone from his position at the Lions.

 

[Viceregal]

The bit that confuses me is where you try to give someone another string to their bow but never let them actually play to the strengths you drafted them for.

It seems harsh to draft someone say as an inside mid and then play them off the half back in the seconds and then the wing in the seniors followed by a shrug they just didn't come on...

 

[Pride of lions]

The bit that confuses me is where you try to give someone another string to their bow but never let them actually play to the strengths you drafted them for.

It seems harsh to draft someone say as an inside mid and then play them off the half back in the seconds and then the wing in the seniors followed by a shrug they just didn't come on...

The problem is that the vast majority of players who are drafted have been playing as midfielders in the underage competitions because the best players generally play on the ball. Very rarely does a wingman or flanker get drafted because they aren’t the best players in the team. So after being drafted they have to play elsewhere to get a game.

 

[briztoon]

Oh dear. I can hear the outrage. "I'm shouted down again."

For many years in Fagan's initial tenure we were one of the youngest teams in the league. If that is not putting your trust in the young ones, what is.

They were the best players we had. We were very light on talent back then.

Pretty much why draftees walk in to the best 22 of every club at the bottom.

 

[irel]

They were the best players we had. We were very light on talent back then.

Pretty much why draftees walk in to every club at the bottom.

Well yeah, and managed to develop them to a grand final.

 

[briztoon]

Daniel Rich gone from his position at the Lions.

Reason???

 

[Kickback Flip]

Reason???

Not too sure, it doesn't say in the Herald Sun article.