Coach Midfield Coaching Roles

[Sanchez365]

100% last year.
So many games won on individual brilliance popping up, and not so much being a fine tuned team.
Say a brilliant snap by Charlie where as the other team seemed to dominate general play but just didn't have the finish of our forwards.
That is the reason why we couldn't put teams to the sword imo, our system or put it this way, the way we play.
Contested possession , not so much finding space with running etc.
Sooner or later the oppo will get a run on if you give back possession.
All this must come back to the head coach surely.

I wondered a similar thing, was it just the brilliance of our forwards making the most of a small amount of opportunities? According to last years team stats taken from here -> (AFL Team Statistics) it looks like we were the best team in the AFL at scoring goals per I50. However we also had a very high number of Inside 50s.

Looking at these stats also confirms the thoughts about our clearance numbers. We were second in the AFL for average clearances (39.8 p/game), however our clearance differentials were (Center Clearances: 0.4, Stoppage Clearances: 0.1, Total Overall 0.5). In comparison the No1 stoppage team in the AFL was the Bulldogs (40.0 p/game) and their differentials were (Center Clearances: 3.0, Stoppage Clearances: 5.0, Total Overall 7.9). NOTE: Must be some rounding errors in there!

I think all this leads to a few interesting questions:
1) Why are we playing such a heavy clearance style game when we aren't as effective in that part of the ground?
2) Are we literally gambling against our opposition that if we can go 50/50 in stoppages and I50s, our forwards extreme efficiency inside F50 will result in us getting wins?
3) Does this prove that our midfield can beat the lesser lights in the AFL comfortably, but fall short when coming up the rest of the top 8?

One other thing to probably note is we ranked number 2 in the AFL for Defensive 1v1s 17.6 (p/game), but had the second lowest Defensive 1v1s Lost % (22.0%), this was better then Melbourne.

All up, these figures present our Defenders and Forwards be very high quality, the issue is the middle of the ground. Which I think we all knew to be honest.

We are also clearly the highest Kick to Handball ratio team of anyone in the AFL and have been since Fages has come onboard. Which again adds to the quality of those clearance numbers too (anecdotally it feels like we have rushed clearances, while teams regularly get on the outside of us).

 

[Nathan Barley]

We moved to a high clearance game to reduce scores against because we were turning the ball over so much playing a fast game under leppa we went to being more conservative kicking long to packs and getting heaps of ball ups

Always thought our move away from this depended on getting some speed and overlap off half back and IMO we only now have that with McKenna, Kiddy and Rayner or Wilmot

 

[jonnobackpocket]

I think some of the reactions in here are knee jerk and over the top. However - After Horne-Francis bolted out of there middle for the third time with no defensive pressure, I thought surely we going to put someone defensive side and drag him down the minute I touches it, but no it happened again. We backed ourselves to win it out- sometimes you have to concede and make it a 3 on 3 in the middle and just take a stoppage should a player who is red hot get their hands on it. J Lyons would have been perfect- big body.

 

[mpal6]

I think some of the reactions in here are knee jerk and over the top. However - After Horne-Francis bolted out of there middle for the third time with no defensive pressure, I thought surely we going to put someone defensive side and drag him down the minute I touches it, but no it happened again. We backed ourselves to win it out- sometimes you have to concede and make it a 3 on 3 in the middle and just take a stoppage should a player who is red hot get their hands on it. J Lyons would have been perfect- big body.

I'm still scratching my head why Deven Robertson wasn't moved to that tagging role. He did exactly that so many times last year. We had him on the ground but mindlessly kept trying with Neale/Dunkley/Ashcroft/Bailey/McCluggage. We even moved Gunston to defense ! but refused to tag anyone in midfield. Such a weird game.

Its like both the players and coaches were shocked to total zombie mode watching the crisis unfold in front of them.

 

[CarterS]

I think some of the reactions in here are knee jerk and over the top. However - After Horne-Francis bolted out of there middle for the third time with no defensive pressure, I thought surely we going to put someone defensive side and drag him down the minute I touches it, but no it happened again. We backed ourselves to win it out- sometimes you have to concede and make it a 3 on 3 in the middle and just take a stoppage should a player who is red hot get their hands on it. J Lyons would have been perfect- big body.

Very similar to the change we made at half time in the final vs Melbourne and it turned the game around... why didnt we do it again?!

 

[briztoon]

Very similar to the change we made at half time in the final vs Melbourne and it turned the game around... why didnt we do it again?!

Because Port weren’t playing that midfield combination in the first half.

It was Ports midfield change that caught us out in the second half.

But we should be able to swing a change in game, without waiting for a quarter time break and coaches instructions.

 

[SizeMatters]

Are we poorly coached or do too many of our players not have that dog hungry fierce unrelenting intensity that you need to be elite consistently, are we happy at just being competitive most weeks, are we too comfortable?

Nigel Lappin was one I would put in the dog hungry category, Lethal used to say bravery on a footy field comes in many forms and an underrated one is being able to keep running when your body tells you no more, he cited Nigel Lappin as an example of this.

Coaching. Horse, Scott, the fly. They all get the most out of their players. Pies were a rabble until the fly took over. Now they all buy in even the spuds like Noble look like good players under him. Need to stop laying blame on the players when it’s the issues from the top. Fish rots at head etc etc.

Fagan and the other coaches just don’t have it in them. Somethings needs to change as it’s the same issues year after year. We’ve changed our best 22 a lot over the years yet still the same issues.

 

[SizeMatters]

View attachment 1635608
I wondered a similar thing, was it just the brilliance of our forwards making the most of a small amount of opportunities? According to last years team stats taken from here -> (AFL Team Statistics) it looks like we were the best team in the AFL at scoring goals per I50. However we also had a very high number of Inside 50s.

Looking at these stats also confirms the thoughts about our clearance numbers. We were second in the AFL for average clearances (39.8 p/game), however our clearance differentials were (Center Clearances: 0.4, Stoppage Clearances: 0.1, Total Overall 0.5). In comparison the No1 stoppage team in the AFL was the Bulldogs (40.0 p/game) and their differentials were (Center Clearances: 3.0, Stoppage Clearances: 5.0, Total Overall 7.9). NOTE: Must be some rounding errors in there!

I think all this leads to a few interesting questions:
1) Why are we playing such a heavy clearance style game when we aren't as effective in that part of the ground?
2) Are we literally gambling against our opposition that if we can go 50/50 in stoppages and I50s, our forwards extreme efficiency inside F50 will result in us getting wins?
3) Does this prove that our midfield can beat the lesser lights in the AFL comfortably, but fall short when coming up the rest of the top 8?

One other thing to probably note is we ranked number 2 in the AFL for Defensive 1v1s 17.6 (p/game), but had the second lowest Defensive 1v1s Lost % (22.0%), this was better then Melbourne.

All up, these figures present our Defenders and Forwards be very high quality, the issue is the middle of the ground. Which I think we all knew to be honest.

We are also clearly the highest Kick to Handball ratio team of anyone in the AFL and have been since Fages has come onboard. Which again adds to the quality of those clearance numbers too (anecdotally it feels like we have rushed clearances, while teams regularly get on the outside of us).

Exactly what I’ve been thinking and interesting to see stats back it up. What would be interesting is seeing our forwards defensive stats somehow. Particularly on opposition ability to rebound 50 with effective disposals and how many scoring chains are generated from opposition d50. I’d imagine we are pretty poor… the likes of bailey, Daniher and Cameron certainly seem to provide minimal defensive pressure on their opposition player or even some sort of defensive set up we deploy from our forward on inside 50 turnover.

From the eyes it looks like opposition defenders can generate a lot of overlap and +1s through the midfield to generate play for them. Makes our midfielders look like s**t but when you’re being outnumbered by 1 or 2 opposition who press up on rebound it is a rather difficult task to wind in.

 

[McIvor]

Coaching. Horse, Scott, the fly. They all get the most out of their players. Pies were a rabble until the fly took over. Now they all buy in even the spuds like Noble look like good players under him. Need to stop laying blame on the players when it’s the issues from the top. Fish rots at head etc etc.

Fagan and the other coaches just don’t have it in them. Somethings needs to change as it’s the same issues year after year. We’ve changed our best 22 a lot over the years yet still the same issues.

Thats what i think to - this squad in years time will rue that they didnt win a flag b/c the club wouldnt make the tough the call. I said the other day that i think Fages has done a marverllous job and was what we needed at the time, but when you see these new coaches coming in and having instant impact, even Voss at Carlton Fly at Pies, and the very ltd viewing the likes of North, Ess, GWS and Saints but it is getting close to the players needing a new voice. Horse is an outlier in that he keeps rejuvintating himself over many years - not sure Fages has. Anyway, Im happy with Fages this year , but unless we dont make the GF or minimum make PF, he has to go and watch us explode in 24

 

[briztoon]

Thats what i think to - this squad in years time will rue that they didnt win a flag b/c the club wouldnt make the tough the call. I said the other day that i think Fages has done a marverllous job and was what we needed at the time, but when you see these new coaches coming in and having instant impact, even Voss at Carlton Fly at Pies, and the very ltd viewing the likes of North, Ess, GWS and Saints but it is getting close to the players needing a new voice. Horse is an outlier in that he keeps rejuvintating himself over many years - not sure Fages has. Anyway, Im happy with Fages this year , but unless we dont make the GF or minimum make PF, he has to go and watch us explode in 24

A lot of Sydney's offensive game plan has been a credited to Don Pyke coming in. I'm sure there was an article written about Pyke's influence on Longmire and Sydney's current game plan.

The obvious coach you missed was Sam Mitchell at Hawthorn. Sure they didn't win much, but it was clear to see that Hawthorn introduced a number of different tactics throughout last season to disrupt an oppositions perceived strength.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

I'm still scratching my head why Deven Robertson wasn't moved to that tagging role. He did exactly that so many times last year. We had him on the ground but mindlessly kept trying with Neale/Dunkley/Ashcroft/Bailey/McCluggage. We even moved Gunston to defense ! but refused to tag anyone in midfield. Such a weird game.

Its like both the players and coaches were shocked to total zombie mode watching the crisis unfold in front of them.

Yeah spot on - Dev on the weekend, because he was playing, I still cannot buy that Dev is a better player than JL. I want that change this week. Yep it’s like everyone was waiting for someone else to turn it around.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Very similar to the change we made at half time in the final vs Melbourne and it turned the game around... why didnt we do it again?!

Yes- it’s ok to acknowledge a player is on and it’s time to do something about it. You can’t just back your own player every time. Turn it into a s**t fight for 10 minutes and try and wrestle back some sort of control. It was so poor, I was screaming at the TV.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Thats what i think to - this squad in years time will rue that they didnt win a flag b/c the club wouldnt make the tough the call. I said the other day that i think Fages has done a marverllous job and was what we needed at the time, but when you see these new coaches coming in and having instant impact, even Voss at Carlton Fly at Pies, and the very ltd viewing the likes of North, Ess, GWS and Saints but it is getting close to the players needing a new voice. Horse is an outlier in that he keeps rejuvintating himself over many years - not sure Fages has. Anyway, Im happy with Fages this year , but unless we dont make the GF or minimum make PF, he has to go and watch us explode in 24

Voss inherited a list that should have been a walk up start for finals, had the Brownlow medalist and the leading goal kicker, 2 pick ones and other early picks. Didn’t make finals so would not be getting to Carried away with him.

 

[martinson]

Yes- it’s ok to acknowledge a player is on and it’s time to do something about it. You can’t just back your own player every time. Turn it into a s**t fight for 10 minutes and try and wrestle back some sort of control. It was so poor, I was screaming at the TV.

Everyone from the coaches through to the players seemed to have a brain fade on Saturday.

Not jumping to any conclusions until we've played a few games. We seemed to play stale which is odd for the first game.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

A lot of Sydney's offensive game plan has been a credited to Don Pyke coming in. I'm sure there was an article written about Pyke's influence on Longmire and Sydney's current game plan.

The obvious coach you missed was Sam Mitchell at Hawthorn. Sure they didn't win much, but it was clear to see that Hawthorn introduced a number of different tactics throughout last season to disrupt an oppositions perceived strength.

The same Sam Mitchell whose team just got murdered by a bottom 6 team after having 6 months to prepare for it.

 

[martinson]

The same Sam Mitchell whose team just got murdered by a bottom 6 team after having 6 months to prepare for it.

The coach gets blamed for everything sooner or later. A change in coach/coaching style can rejuvenate players ,sometimes for a season or two. We find out this year whether we're actually good enough imo. To me that's the biggest issue if we think we're in a 'flag window'. We've yet to show so far that we're any more than a very competitive team.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Everyone from the coaches through to the players seemed to have a brain fade on Saturday.

Not jumping to any conclusions until we've played a few games. We seemed to play stale which is odd for the first game.

Agree I have not thrown the baby out, not saying sack the coach- there were just periods and things that seemed so obvious and had to happen - that didn’t - which left me shaking my head.

 

[McIvor]

A lot of Sydney's offensive game plan has been a credited to Don Pyke coming in. I'm sure there was an article written about Pyke's influence on Longmire and Sydney's current game plan.

The obvious coach you missed was Sam Mitchell at Hawthorn. Sure they didn't win much, but it was clear to see that Hawthorn introduced a number of different tactics throughout last season to disrupt an oppositions perceived strength.

Which begs the question why cant seem to attract highly credentialed assistants or ex AFL coaches as assitants.

 

[martinson]

Agree I have not thrown the baby out, not saying sack the coach- there were just periods and things that seemed so obvious and had to happen - that didn’t - which left me shaking my head.

We're all shaking our heads. I think Fages was too. He looked a bit shellshocked after the game.

He doesn't seem the type to me who would shy away from tough decisions if he needs to make them.

The way we kept talking ourselves up pre season was a big red flag as was raised on this blog.

Now we get the chance to respond. This week is a big game for us.

 

[briztoon]

The same Sam Mitchell whose team just got murdered by a bottom 6 team after having 6 months to prepare for it.

If by prepare, you mean go the blow it up like North did route, then yeah sure. They're deliberately tanking to get good draft picks. They've said as much publically.

Doesn't matter how good a coach Mitchell is this year, they don't have the senior players to lead them any more. They're playing for Collingwood, Fremantle and Brisbane this year.

 

[briztoon]

We're all shaking our heads. I think Fages was too. He looked a bit shellshocked after the game.

He doesn't seem the type to me who would shy away from tough decisions if he needs to make them.

The way we kept talking ourselves up pre season was a big red flag as was raised on this blog.

Now we get the chance to respond. This week is a big game for us.

Fage's was shell shocked during the third quarter. The coverage cut to the coaches box twice during the third quarter, and the only appropriate word I can come up for the look on Fage's face, is that he looked impotent. He could see what was going on, was dismayed by it, but had no answer how to stop it.

 

[dlanod]

Which begs the question why cant seem to attract highly credentialed assistants or ex AFL coaches as assitants.

Because we don't want to pay as much as we still are operating within our means.

 

[martinson]

I don't know enough about what goes on internally as to what benefit wholesale or any changes to the coaching group would make , but some of them have been there a long time and often a fresh set of eyes and a different message can spark improved performance.

Just like any company ,business ,or professional sporting club.

 

[mpal6]

Fage's was shell shocked during the third quarter. The coverage cut to the coaches box twice during the third quarter, and the only appropriate word I can come up for the look on Fage's face, is that he looked impotent. He could see what was going on, was dismayed by it, but had no answer how to stop it.

Need a tactician like Blake Caracella in the box.

I thought Mark Stone would be that person but I'm not seeing any significant moves on the field so far.

 

[Thomasno]

I’ve been saying for 3 years we have a weak coaching panel, it continues to bite. We should have jumped on a ratten or a rutten, we should try and get Lukey Power out of Carlton. Something.

Imagine having a properly credentialed senior assistant under Fagan? it could be transformative.

Name an assistant coach that’s been in the conversation for a senior job under Fagan, there have been none.

Nothing againts our crew, they are all great people and have been part of our push up the ladder - however, we need to do a clean out and re-load under Fagan as other teams have done lately, if things don’t work out this year.

I’ve said it before but we need to somehow lure Lappin back from Geelong; maybe offer him Fagan’s job post contract if he wants it.