Who replaces Will in the midfield rotation?

[Nunez]

Not really adding anything new here except to express my opinion that Dev should come in for this week, and that Bailey comes in for Dev once fit.

Also I wonder if we would take Zac to Perth for his first game back, particularly with a 6 day break coming up after that.

On the other hand, the cynic in me questions whether we would want to take Dev to Perth where an opposition scout or club might have the chance to take him out for a coffee while he is "visiting friends and relatives"

The only other thing I wanted to add is if our net change to Saturday's team against Geelong is Ashcroft out, Bailey in, does this give us enough midfield rotations? Is this partly the reason why we are struggling to run games out?

Finally, if Dev/Lyons/whoever comes into the 22, and stays once Bailey returns, who gets omitted?

For me this Dev or Cockatoo this week. Dev could cover the midfield time of Ashcroft whereas Cockatoo could split midfield time with Rayner while impacting when forward.

We are lucky to have as much depth as we do!

 

[Dalions]

Not really adding anything new here except to express my opinion that Dev should come in for this week, and that Bailey comes in for Dev once fit.

Also I wonder if we would take Zac to Perth for his first game back, particularly with a 6 day break coming up after that.

On the other hand, the cynic in me questions whether we would want to take Dev to Perth where an opposition scout or club might have the chance to take him out for a coffee while he is "visiting friends and relatives"

The only other thing I wanted to add is if our net change to Saturday's team against Geelong is Ashcroft out, Bailey in, does this give us enough midfield rotations? Is this partly the reason why we are struggling to run games out?

Finally, if Dev/Lyons/whoever comes into the 22, and stays once Bailey returns, who gets omitted?

I think we have a few who could step up a bit of midfield time to cover for Will.
All of Clugga, Berry, Rayner, Zorko, Linc, Bailey when he is back, Dev if he comes in this week. They could all spend an extra centre bounce or 2 in there to cover or we go a Lyons this week and he takes the whole 40-50% of game time that Will spends in there.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Not really adding anything new here except to express my opinion that Dev should come in for this week, and that Bailey comes in for Dev once fit.

Also I wonder if we would take Zac to Perth for his first game back, particularly with a 6 day break coming up after that.

On the other hand, the cynic in me questions whether we would want to take Dev to Perth where an opposition scout or club might have the chance to take him out for a coffee while he is "visiting friends and relatives"

The only other thing I wanted to add is if our net change to Saturday's team against Geelong is Ashcroft out, Bailey in, does this give us enough midfield rotations? Is this partly the reason why we are struggling to run games out?

Finally, if Dev/Lyons/whoever comes into the 22, and stays once Bailey returns, who gets omitted?

Zorko

Surely if he can't play a decent game against Gold Coast then there isn't much hope in him turning things around this season.

He might be the one to benefit from Ashcrofts injury and hold onto a spot while we lose Dev at the end of the season

 

[M Malice]

Roar Deal today, Dom and Fish spoke a fair bit about who take's Will's place, they threw up 8 options >

Bailey, Rayner, Lyons, Robertson, Zorko, Berry... and left field/not so serious options Cameron, Rich.

Dom's top 3 options in preferred order - Rayner > Bailey > Zorko.

Fish's - Bailey, Rayner, Zorko.
__________________________
Both have Bailey/Rayner sharing the rotations to differing degrees.

Both said that Ashcroft out and Bailey in is our best 22 going into finals so they don't want to be dropping anyone to bring in a Lyons/Robertson etc.

 

[briztoon]

This is 100% accurate. To add, oh how people flavour the narrative to suit their hindsight. My recollection and my narrative is that at the time Rayner, Dow and LDU were considered top three with Rayner clear number one. It was only during a Conole interview that he also included Brayshaw as a player in our thinking.

Although Canole did not specifically say it, one could read from that, for us it was between Rayner or Brayshaw. We chose Rayner for exactly the reasons you outlined.

LDU may have been discussed by BF nuffies like us however in reality LDU was out of calculation because there were strong rumors, he made it quite clear he was going to miss mommy’s bosom too much. I still remember the scenes of LDU in embrace with his parents in tears of relief when he was selected by North and not having to leave home.

As for Dow, thank god our recruiting team had more sense than nuffies here.

My (really bad) recollection of 2017, is that someone mentioned here early in the season that our recruiters were following Dow very closely. So a lot of Lions posters here jumped on board.

Then after the U18 season finished, but before the combine, someone mentioned that our recruiters were no longer interested in Dow, as he was considered a flight risk.

During the draft combine, Conole was interviewed by Twomey, and asked if Rayner was locked in at our selection, that’s when he mentioned we were considering Rayner or Brayshaw.

As for the Nuffies on the draft board, well everyone knows I follow the AFL Draft Central writers pretty closely.

I can guarantee they had LDU and Cerra at the top of their board during the U18 preseason.

Rayner was viewed as talented, but had a big question mark on him, having run an 11.1 beep test in preseason testing.

 

[p4p1]

Personally I think, that when fit, Bailey comes in for Will and that is our best 22 moving forward for this year.
So whoever comes in for Will this week ie Dev or Lyons, will go out for Bailey next week.

It more than possible that with an extended run as mid being his main role, Bails really excels and becomes a game breaker for us. I would still like someone more defensive to come in for Gunners unless he continues to play as he did last week, covering the ground quite well.
Gunners and Zorks are my only question marks for who is in our 22 from last week + Bails without Ashy.

 

[mpal6]

Roar Deal today, Dom and Fish spoke a fair bit about who take's Will's place, they threw up 8 options >

Bailey, Rayner, Lyons, Robertson, Zorko, Berry... and left field/not so serious options Cameron, Rich.

Dom's top 3 options in preferred order - Rayner > Bailey > Zorko.

Fish's - Bailey, Rayner, Zorko.
__________________________
Both have Bailey/Rayner sharing the rotations to differing degrees.

Both said that Ashcroft out and Bailey in is our best 22 going into finals so they don't want to be dropping anyone to bring in a Lyons/Robertson etc.

Me no likey either of those 3 selections. A fully fit Zorko would be a no-brainer but not at his current condition.

Just Bailey and Rayner through the middle would be too much icing in the midfield. I don't see either of them running all the way back to D50 to provide a kick out option or consistently gut run from one end to the other. That's not their strength either, they do the flashy forward running bits well which is where they excel.

 

[Section 5]

I think Lyons will be preferred over Dev.
Either player will be fine for this week.

Going forward not sure who they see replacing Ashcroft.
Wilmot?
Bailey when he returns can take up a bit more mid time just not sure he can do it full time.

 

[irel]

Personally I think, that when fit, Bailey comes in for Will and that is our best 22 moving forward for this year.
So whoever comes in for Will this week ie Dev or Lyons, will go out for Bailey next week.

Not if they have an Ah Che type of game. It would be extremely difficult to drop them.

 

[Lions Flag 2020]

We don’t have anyone to replace Ashcroft. He is the best first year player I have seen at the Lions since I jumped on the bandwagon in 2015 when we were dominating the bottom part of the ladder.
I really hope his injury doesn’t impact his agility and movement.

 

[Warwick]

We don’t have anyone to replace Ashcroft. He is the best first year player I have seen at the Lions since I jumped on the bandwagon in 2015 when we were dominating the bottom part of the ladder.
I really hope his injury doesn’t impact his agility and movement.

It’s a good question.

Think Will is far and away the best first year (draftee) Lion I’ve seen. Rich was very very good in 2009 as well.

Tbh Fletcher’s probably close to the top 5 as well.

 

[Warwick]

Gutted for Will. Its a huge injury that takes a really long time to heal.
I remember when I tore mine the second time, I read about a footballer in Brazil of had stem cells and was playing football (soccer) again in 6 weeks. Though, I think it only works for a partial tear. They are still quite useful if one is having a reconstruction though from what I have read previously and help to not only speed up the recovery but also lead to a stronger ligament etc. I'm sure the Lions leave no stone unturned.
I also remember reading that when Libba (the original) did his ACL and came back 5 months later, he would ice his knee every two hours 24 hours per day. That is wake up regardless of the time and ice his knee. It seemed to work for him. Not sure if that effort is repeatable even 30ish years later.

I think Bailey picks up more mid time, one of the reasons I think we used Will so much in the middle is that he offered something different than our other mids. It is the same with Bailey, he has the speed and offensive ability to play Wills role IMO. I also think we bring Dev in, who spends a decent chunk of time in the middle. Bez could also rotate through there if we are planning on using his big body in the middle during finals.

They’ll definitely go down the traditional route, particularly because he’s 18.

There will continue to be new approaches like LARS etc but failure rates can be higher and secondary reconstructions more problematic. The ‘traditional’ reconstructions have continued to improve, even over the last 5-10 years.

 

[McIvor]

I am concerned that after five and a half years in the system as a senior player, interrupted in 2021 by his ACL injury, Rayner really appears to have plateaued. Since being taken at pick one in the 2017 Draft, Rayner comes off second best when compared with subsequent selections. Sam Walsh (2018), Matt Rowell (2019), Jamarra Ugle-Hagan (2020) and Jason Horne-Francis (2021) have all gone past Rayner as footballers, with each cementing their spot as one of the leading players at their respective clubs. Simply put, Rayner has consistently struggled to string together four quarter games in his 105 game career. Since his debut, Rayner has only had more than 20 disposals in a game on 5 occasions. Rayner has shown he can make a devastating impact in bursts, but he has equally demonstrated he can go missing for extended periods in games. Rayner is a low possession player who drifts in and out of games and this has hurt us in finals when he really hasn’t turned up. His finals record is not impressive, with his disposal count being 54 at an average of 9 disposals over 6 finals. In terms of the scoreboard, Rayner has really failed to make an impact, having kicked a total of 5 goals in those 6 Finals. This is a disappointing set of numbers.

Now with the injury to Ashcroft, people are suggesting that Cam Rayner could cover for him in the midfield, but the universal view is that he couldn’t do so full time because he lacks the physical endurance. The fact that a 23 year old player who stands at 187cm has not developed the capacity to run a game out as part of a midfield rotation is, I think, an indictment of the player and our fitness staff.

The extent to which Rayner is utilised to cover for the loss of Ashcroft will be up to Fagan and the football department. My concern is that with another Finals campaign looming, we are going to get more of the same from Cam. The best way he can help us to cover for the loss of Ashcroft is for him to FIRE UP and fulfil his potential. We need less sniff the cheese celebrations, funny pre-prepared hand shakes and jolly japes and more consistent, hard at it, blue collar football from Rayner. He should look at the tough and disciplined approach Jason Horne-Francis, who has just turned 20 and is in his second season, brings and try emulate it. When people try to defend Cam Rayner, they will point to a handful of games where he has dominated, whereas other players, like those listed above, can point to entire seasons.

It really is an indicment on Rayner that Ashcroft has done more in his 18 games than Cam has in over 100 games, not to mention more influential, consistent etc. W/O a shadow of doubt that all those no.1's taken after him and younger are far each superior with a year and years less experience. I hope Cam can come good sometime soon b/c all we ever hear are excuses and justifications of this and that.

 

[McIvor]

Not proper to compare him to other number 1's. COmpare him to his draft year - the top 5 is hardly overwhelming.

Well Braysahaw and LDU are in my view far superior. Brayshaw has been way more consistet and whilst LDU has been a slow burn, hes a sublime player in my view - I reckon other clubs would falling over themselves to get him now if he was on the market.

 

[McIvor]

Zorko

Surely if he can't play a decent game against Gold Coast then there isn't much hope in him turning things around this season.

He might be the one to benefit from Ashcrofts injury and hold onto a spot while we lose Dev at the end of the season

Could nt believe when I heard Dom and Fish on the podcast say Zorko to come in and replace Ashcroft.

I reckon hes just about cooked and should only ever be used off the sub. I hope he doesnt go on next year, dont think there is anything gained by it.

As for Zorko playing full time minutes as a mid - in my best cockney voice - not bloody likely

 

[p4p1]

Well Braysahaw and LDU are in my view far superior. Brayshaw has been way more consistet and whilst LDU has been a slow burn, hes a sublime player in my view - I reckon other clubs would falling over themselves to get him now if he was on the market.

Imagine our midfield with a starting 3 of Neale, Dunkley and Brayshaw.

 

[Squizz89]

It's such a shame Cam did his knee when he did. He had a huge preseason to get himself ready to go, in what appeared to be a starting midfielder role. If he hadn't done the knee who knows where he'd be right now in that role, but it's one that, with everything we could still achieve this year, should be revisited.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

It's not Cam's fault we selected him at No.1.

Having said that with Ashcroft and Bailey out it's a good opportunity for him to step up and turn those glimpses of brilliance into a more consistent 4 quarter effort.

For him to do that we need to get him into a more prominent role and see what he's got. Maybe he'll just always be a dangerous flanker who can bust it open occasionally or maybe he can be better than that. He's still young enough to keep improving.

I rarely disagree with what you say M but he shows NO sign of improvement and that is what 3KZ is showing.

I used to be someone who thought Cam would explode one day.

I now think he is a very limited player. I do not think there is any improvement.

Let's see if I am right.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

Well Braysahaw and LDU are in my view far superior. Brayshaw has been way more consistet and whilst LDU has been a slow burn, hes a sublime player in my view - I reckon other clubs would falling over themselves to get him now if he was on the market.

I follow North closely and LDU gets the ball breaks a tackle or two and then has to kick it to ??????? North have a terrible list so he is surrounded by incompetence.

he has been a bit injury prone though.

He would be a weapon at the Lions.

 

[M Malice]

It’s a good question.

Think Will is far and away the best first year (draftee) Lion I’ve seen. Rich was very very good in 2009 as well.

Tbh Fletcher’s probably close to the top 5 as well.

Jared Brennan had a highlight reel 1st game, I can not recall what his whole 1st year was like.

 

[SizeMatters]

the fact we have a thread almost 200 replies long on who will replace Will as a mid just crystallises to me and it seems to a lot on this board that Rayner isn’t up to it.

If he was decent this wouldn’t even be a thread at all. It would be an instant Rayner response. But yeah…. Seems most are of the opinion he might not be up to it. A first year player pick 2 outperforming a bloke who at pick 1 has over 100 games to his name and was touted throughout this board as Petracca or Dusty clone.

Laughable.

 

[Dalions]

Personally I thought that Cam Rayners game on the weekend was actually pretty good.
He may have only had the 14 touches but I thought he was pretty influential with his what he did.

 

[Nunez]

the fact we have a thread almost 200 replies long on who will replace Will as a mid just crystallises to me and it seems to a lot on this board that Rayner isn’t up to it.

If he was decent this wouldn’t even be a thread at all. It would be an instant Rayner response. But yeah…. Seems most are of the opinion he might not be up to it. A first year player pick 2 outperforming a bloke who at pick 1 has over 100 games to his name and was touted throughout this board as Petracca or Dusty clone.

Laughable.

Most agree Bailey or Rayner will take the CBAs. The fact that we have four genuine options (Bailey, Rayner, Lyons & Dev) is why this thread exists, not because Rayner isn't a full time mid.

You've misread the room Sizey.

 

[Nunez]

Personally I thought that Can Rayners game on the weekend was actually pretty good.
He may have only had 14 touches but I thought he was pretty influential with his touches.

It was a lot better than I thought it was live. He had some important touches and tackles and kept bobbing up. Hard to do so for four quarters in the role he plays.

 

[Elixuh]

I wouldn’t mind seeing the Cockatoo in full flight. He has been good in the vfl this year.