Who replaces Will in the midfield rotation?

[Bucking Beads]

Is it “our” fault? I would have thought Cam had to bear some responsibility for his variable and sometimes completely underwhelming performances.

Both us and him need to be accountable for it. Cam clearly has talent but it hasn't been unlocked to be a dominant player consistently yet.

 

[On the quiet]

My great problem with Dev is that he doesn't get the ball enough.

Never got 20 disposals in a game!

Played 9 games this year, at least three of those as a sub. Also been moved around playing a few positions. Does he have to get 20 disposals if we give him a role to gut run back to help in defence and give him a tagging type role. I don't disagree some of his disposals could improve, but arguably it would with some consistency. Play Dev as an inside mid for the next few weeks, with Cam and/or Zac spending some minutes. We know what we get with Lyons, just not sure that stacks up against some of the faster teams. Ah Cee after his performance must stay, just not sure Ah Chee or Zack are fulltime inside mids, and Cam is certainly not over 4 Q's.

 

[Squizz89]

Just on AhChee being mentioned. Has he actually ever played mid in his life? Whether here or at the Suns? And by mid I mean attending CBAs/follower around the ground etc?

 

[Pride of lions]

Dev seems to have a very slow and awkward ball drop which is ok in the VFL, but with the greater time pressure in the AFL his kicking becomes a weakness. Whether he is able to adapt his kicking technique to compensate for this would seem to be the key to him becoming a top flight midfielder. The other aspects of his game are good, but his disposal is definitely a major problem.

 

[p4p1]

I've always assumed it has but does anyone know what the after effects of an ACL injury is. Is Will likely to get any long term effects like increased potential for injury, loss of speed/leap etc?

When I tore mine I lost a bit of my leap, when I tore it again I lost most of my leap. However, that is more due to a loss of muscle rather than the injury itself. Pro athletes aren't going to lose that muscle mass and are working with the best in the business for rehab etc. He will come back better.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Dev seems to have a very slow and awkward ball drop which is ok in the VFL, but with the greater time pressure in the AFL his kicking becomes a weakness. Whether he is able to adapt his kicking technique to compensate for this would seem to be the key to him becoming a top flight midfielder. The other aspects of his game are good, but his disposal is definitely a major problem.

Similar to Dunkley?

We saw in the Melbourne final he was deliberately kicking mongrels

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

Dev seems to have a very slow and awkward ball drop which is ok in the VFL, but with the greater time pressure in the AFL his kicking becomes a weakness. Whether he is able to adapt his kicking technique to compensate for this would seem to be the key to him becoming a top flight midfielder. The other aspects of his game are good, but his disposal is definitely a major problem.

Where does he sit with handball disposal?
If he could be a good extractoe like Bez used to be for us , and handball to a loose player , he could be great.
He certainly racks up the tackles , which is a great quality.
Would like to see him get a decent crack at that center bounce , get ball extractor role.
With Cam , would also like to see him with more time in the center, my only problem is that I don't feel confident in his chasing or defensive qualities once the ball is lost.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Where does he sit with handball disposal?
If he could be a good extractoe like Bez used to be for us , and handball to a loose player , he could be great.
He certainly racks up the tackles , which is a great quality.
Would like to see him get a decent crack at that center bounce , get ball extractor role.
With Cam , would also like to see him with more time in the center, my only problem is that I don't feel confident in his chasing or defensive qualities once the ball is lost.

Actually Dev missed a couple of pretty simple handballs in his latest run in the seniors which was worrying

 

[golions]

Looking ahead, and with Dev’s strengths as a gut running defensive mid, is there any chance he could utilised to run with and shut down Nick Daicos?

 

[Nathan Barley]

Looking ahead, and with Dev’s defensive strengths, is there any chance he could utilised to run with and shut down Nick Daicos?

I think he's untaggable in their current setup

They can shift him all over the field and his teammates protect him and also look to give him the ball

I think we need to focus on cutting the feed off at the source and win contested footy as well as just running hard in general

He did have 38 disposals and kicked 2 goals last time we played and we still won comfortably

Rayner got more coaches votes for a 17 disposal game

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

Played 9 games this year, at least three of those as a sub. Also been moved around playing a few positions. Does he have to get 20 disposals if we give him a role to gut run back to help in defence and give him a tagging type role. I don't disagree some of his disposals could improve, but arguably it would with some consistency. Play Dev as an inside mid for the next few weeks, with Cam and/or Zac spending some minutes. We know what we get with Lyons, just not sure that stacks up against some of the faster teams. Ah Cee after his performance must stay, just not sure Ah Chee or Zack are fulltime inside mids, and Cam is certainly not over 4 Q's.

Might as well give it a go but I'm not confident. I think he does not have anything special.

When Lyons was playing with that groin problem last year Dev should have been given more games.

 

[Jubair]

I think we should cut Dev more slack. He hasn't played regularly in the Seniors and being in and out, due to the circumstances, means he won't achieve the consistency as quickly. Payne last year was quite inconsistent too. He made a blunder in the Melbourne final by spoiling straight to Pickett for that goal before HT. Let's not pick on a missed handball or two from Dev now. If he plays consistently in a particular role then he may have the freedom and also clarity in his role in the team to florish. Like Payne has this year.

 

[M Malice]

I think we should cut Dev more slack. He hasn't played regularly in the Seniors and being in and out, due to the circumstances, means he won't achieve the consistency as quickly. Payne last year was quite inconsistent too. He made a blunder in the Melbourne final by spoiling straight to Pickett for that goal before HT. Let's not pick on a missed handball or two from Dev now. If he plays consistently in a particular role then he may have the freedom and also clarity in his role in the team to florish. Like Payne has this year.

Agree, there is no such thing as a player that doesn't make mistakes, even Dunkley/Neale/Andrews are credited with clangers. Players on the periphery get their mistakes highlighted more because their games are analysed in finer detail IMO.

 

[p4p1]

Agree, there is no such thing as a player that doesn't make mistakes, even Dunkley/Neale/Andrews are credited with clangers. Players on the periphery get their mistakes highlighted more because their games are analysed in finer detail IMO.

On the other side, I have seen Dev work harder than most to make up for his mistake immediately.

 

[On the quiet]

Agree, there is no such thing as a player that doesn't make mistakes, even Dunkley/Neale/Andrews are credited with clangers. Players on the periphery get their mistakes highlighted more because their games are analysed in finer detail IMO.

I believe this is accurate, in that some fringe players seem to get judged harshly at times internally, and dropped, as opposed to the more seasoned players. We are talking about humans, yes who are skillful, but there is almost never a game when a players does not make an error over 120+ minutes of competitive AFL, even the champions.

 

[knaf]

Yep, giving Dev a couple of games in his preferred role against teams we should beat is a no brainer IMO.

I went back and had a look at Dev's last few games in the VFL where he would have played primarily as a ball getting mid, he had no trouble getting his hands on the ball.

Round 18 v Cats- 25 disposals, 9 clearances, 4 marks, 4 tackles.
Round 10 v Frankston- 25 disposals, 5 clearances. 3 marks, 21 tackles.
Round 9 v Coburg- 39 disposals, 9 clearances, 2 marks, 1 tackle.
Round 8 v Bombers- 26 disposals, 6 clearances, 2 marks, 4 tackles.
Round 7 v Blues- 31 disposals, 8 clearances, 4 marks, 6 tackles.

i was thinking along these lines too. Has “mid-fielder” numbers in the twos when playing see ball get ball role. Probably averages less than Matho and Lyons playing similar roles in the Twos. However I think Dev’s disposals are more damaging as he often runs and carry’s out of congestion.

in the firsts, I really like his intensity. Every time he is involved in the play you can read the determination on his face.

yes his disposal is iffy. As someone pointed out ball drop appears to be an issue. I haven’t really focused on his handball but I can’t recall one shocker to the feet of a runner on Saturday.

I believe the overall package he brings is sufficient to warrant an extended run. After all no player is perfect.

 

[M Malice]

I believe this is accurate, in that some fringe players seem to get judged harshly at times internally, and dropped, as opposed to the more seasoned players. We are talking about humans, yes who are skillful, but there is almost never a game when a players does not make an error over 120+ minutes of competitive AFL, even the champions.

Yes, people look for what they want to see, it's called confirmation bias eg. There is a certain poster on this board who would say Ryan Lester hasn't made a mistake in his career and should be a 5 time All Australian.

Spoiler: Reveal

3KZ is Football

 

[On the quiet]

Yes, people look for what they want to see, it's called confirmation bias eg. There is a certain poster on this board who would say Ryan Lester hasn't made a mistake in his career and should be a 5 time All Australian.

Spoiler: Reveal

3KZ is Football

yeah but that's because that particular poster is a relative

 

[3KZ is Football]

Both us and him need to be accountable for it. Cam clearly has talent but it hasn't been unlocked to be a dominant player consistently yet.

I am concerned that after five and a half years in the system as a senior player, interrupted in 2021 by his ACL injury, Rayner really appears to have plateaued. Since being taken at pick one in the 2017 Draft, Rayner comes off second best when compared with subsequent selections. Sam Walsh (2018), Matt Rowell (2019), Jamarra Ugle-Hagan (2020) and Jason Horne-Francis (2021) have all gone past Rayner as footballers, with each cementing their spot as one of the leading players at their respective clubs. Simply put, Rayner has consistently struggled to string together four quarter games in his 105 game career. Since his debut, Rayner has only had more than 20 disposals in a game on 5 occasions. Rayner has shown he can make a devastating impact in bursts, but he has equally demonstrated he can go missing for extended periods in games. Rayner is a low possession player who drifts in and out of games and this has hurt us in finals when he really hasn’t turned up. His finals record is not impressive, with his disposal count being 54 at an average of 9 disposals over 6 finals. In terms of the scoreboard, Rayner has really failed to make an impact, having kicked a total of 5 goals in those 6 Finals. This is a disappointing set of numbers.

Now with the injury to Ashcroft, people are suggesting that Cam Rayner could cover for him in the midfield, but the universal view is that he couldn’t do so full time because he lacks the physical endurance. The fact that a 23 year old player who stands at 187cm has not developed the capacity to run a game out as part of a midfield rotation is, I think, an indictment of the player and our fitness staff.

The extent to which Rayner is utilised to cover for the loss of Ashcroft will be up to Fagan and the football department. My concern is that with another Finals campaign looming, we are going to get more of the same from Cam. The best way he can help us to cover for the loss of Ashcroft is for him to FIRE UP and fulfil his potential. We need less sniff the cheese celebrations, funny pre-prepared hand shakes and jolly japes and more consistent, hard at it, blue collar football from Rayner. He should look at the tough and disciplined approach Jason Horne-Francis, who has just turned 20 and is in his second season, brings and try emulate it. When people try to defend Cam Rayner, they will point to a handful of games where he has dominated, whereas other players, like those listed above, can point to entire seasons.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Yes, people look for what they want to see, it's called confirmation bias eg. There is a certain poster on this board who would say Ryan Lester hasn't made a mistake in his career and should be a 5 time All Australian.

Spoiler: Reveal

3KZ is Football

I have started a petition.

 

[BuntonRules]

I am concerned that after five and a half years in the system as a senior player, interrupted in 2021 by his ACL injury, Rayner really appears to have plateaued. Since being taken at pick one in the 2017 Draft, Rayner comes off second best when compared with subsequent selections. Sam Walsh (2018), Matt Rowell (2019), Jamarra Ugle-Hagan (2020) and Jason Horne-Francis (2021) have all gone past Rayner as footballers, with each cementing their spot as one of the leading players at their respective clubs. Simply put, Rayner has consistently struggled to string together four quarter games in his 105 game career. Since his debut, Rayner has only had more than 20 disposals in a game on 5 occasions. Rayner has shown he can make a devastating impact in bursts, but he has equally demonstrated he can go missing for extended periods in games. Rayner is a low possession player who drifts in and out of games and this has hurt us in finals when he really hasn’t turned up. His finals record is not impressive, with his disposal count being 54 at an average of 9 disposals over 6 finals. In terms of the scoreboard, Rayner has really failed to make an impact, having kicked a total of 5 goals in those 6 Finals. This is a disappointing set of numbers.

Now with the injury to Ashcroft, people are suggesting that Cam Rayner could cover for him in the midfield, but the universal view is that he couldn’t do so full time because he lacks the physical endurance. The fact that a 23 year old player who stands at 187cm has not developed the capacity to run a game out as part of a midfield rotation is, I think, an indictment of the player and our fitness staff.

The extent to which Rayner is utilised to cover for the loss of Ashcroft will be up to Fagan and the football department. My concern is that with another Finals campaign looming, we are going to get more of the same from Cam. The best way he can help us to cover for the loss of Ashcroft is for him to FIRE UP and fulfil his potential. We need less sniff the cheese celebrations, funny pre-prepared hand shakes and jolly japes and more consistent, hard at it, blue collar football from Rayner. He should look at the tough and disciplined approach Jason Horne-Francis, who has just turned 20 and is in his second season, brings and try emulate it. When people try to defend Cam Rayner, they will point to a handful of games where he has dominated, whereas other players, like those listed above, can point to entire seasons.

Not proper to compare him to other number 1's. COmpare him to his draft year - the top 5 is hardly overwhelming.

 

[Squizz89]

Not proper to compare him to other number 1's. COmpare him to his draft year - the top 5 is hardly overwhelming.

Yeah it wasn’t the greatest draft ever, although you could definitely make an argument that Brayshaw, LDU and Cerra were all better and certainly more consistent players from the top 5.

Having said that I still think Rayner has more capacity to tear a finals series apart then them, which is what we need. We just need to find him a position to do that.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Having said that I still think Rayner has more capacity to tear a finals series apart then them, which is what we need. We just need to find him a position to do that.

Based on what? He certainly hasn’t shown a capacity to make an impact in finals to date.

With Ashcroft out, and Rayner in a spell of indifferent form, I’d settle for him tearing a sequence of home and away games apart. Perhaps Cam could tear the game against Collingwood in Melbourne apart.

 

[Voss the boss]

I am concerned that after five and a half years in the system as a senior player, interrupted in 2021 by his ACL injury, Rayner really appears to have plateaued. Since being taken at pick one in the 2017 Draft, Rayner comes off second best when compared with subsequent selections. Sam Walsh (2018), Matt Rowell (2019), Jamarra Ugle-Hagan (2020) and Jason Horne-Francis (2021) have all gone past Rayner as footballers, with each cementing their spot as one of the leading players at their respective clubs.

Just out of curiosity 3KZ (without the derailing) - who would you have taken form that 2017 draft. Only reason i ask is I'm not sure it is apples for apples when comparing where other number ones have gone post Cam. You can really only compare with who was available in the 2017 draft as that where the pick lies. There are a few that stand out but not heaps.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Just out of curiosity 3KZ (without the derailing) - who would you have taken from that 2017 draft. Only reason i ask is I'm not sure it is apples for apples when comparing where other number ones have gone post Cam. You can really only compare with who was available in the 2017 draft as that where the pick lies. There are a few that stand out but not heaps.

Ok, I get the logic of what you are saying. Maybe 2017 was a weak year. Maybe the other number one draft picks haven’t gone past Cam, perhaps they were always going to be better than him, because they came out of stronger draft years. Perhaps we should look at three other players in our senior side at present who were taken in the same year as Rayner - Bailey, Starcevich and Payne. I think that it is fair to suggest that those three, taken at picks 15, 18 and 54 have also gone past Rayner, in terms of their consistency and value to the team.

To keep it relevant, this is why I favour Lyons as a replacement for Ashcroft, because there is no speculation involved. Lyons will be in our top three or so possession winners, he will rack up the clearances, he is clever with his hands, he can bob up for a goal and he is in great form. With Lyons in the midfield rotations, other players can play in the positions they excel at, like McCluggage on the wing or Bailey at half forward. We don’t have to take a punt on Cam Rayner, who, if he had what it takes to play in the midfield, would have / should have already stamped his name on a position there.