Fair work commission ruling on Sunday penalty rates

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Crankyhawk

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Today the fair work commission rules on whether Sunday penalty rates should reduce from double time to time and a half like Saturday

Critics/ unions fear impact on low paid hospitality and retail jobs.

Employers state these rates are outdated and restrict employment.

For my part im not aware of shops not opening on Sunday because staff cost too much. I get the same penalty for Sunday as Saturday (health industry) and my wife (casual in health) gets no penalty for Saturday or Sunday.
So I am in favor of reducing the rate, but perhaps implement by wage creep (ie future pay rises don't apply to Sunday rates until Saturday = Sunday)

Interested in other views.
 

Reynolds Number

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To be honest I am not against the idea of making Sunday rates the same as Saturday rates.

Sunday is hardly the holy day of rest it once was and both weekend days have become very similar.
 

Seeds

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Good decision. Let the market decide what pay rates should be on a given day. If people dont want to work on sundays then employers will raise rates anyway (or close business).
 

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Extortion Threat

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Sunday rates being the same as Saturday rates is fair enough. But I don't see why public holidays should be included with this. Why even call them public holidays?
 

spinynorman

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Good decision. Let the market decide what pay rates should be on a given day. If people dont want to work on sundays then employers will raise rates anyway (or close business).

Horseshit. Staff will be forced to work Sundays.

Outrageous decision. Hopefully Labor ride this backlash and promise to overturn this when in Government.
 

Crankyhawk

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I wasn't aware that public holidays were part of it. That's a bit of sneakiness if true - the media have only been talking about the Sunday (even john faine on abc this morning). Although concerning that the chamber of commerce president wouldn't commit to being against further penalty rate removal.
 

Crankyhawk

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Horseshit. Staff will be forced to work Sundays.

Outrageous decision. Hopefully Labor ride this backlash and promise to overturn this when in Government.
I just don't see what is special about Sunday relative to Saturday. Both are when kids aren't at school and the commerce (finance, legal worlds) halt.
 

tandino

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I'm in the industry so I've got an interest in the rates being reduced, so I'll say that from the outset.

I haven't had a look at this decision and don't know what impact it will have on my operations, if any. But IMO the biggest problem that 20-something year old hospitality workers face is that compared to their 18 year old colleagues, they cost a business anything from $6 to $16 an hour more. They are less likely to get penalty rates, because they are less likely to work those shifts.
 

Seeds

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Horseshit. Staff will be forced to work Sundays.

Outrageous decision. Hopefully Labor ride this backlash and promise to overturn this when in Government.
Its not horseshit in the longrun. if people need their double time sunday rates to justify working then they will quit and find jobs elsewhere. Labour supply will fall and employers will be forced to push wages back up and we will get a fair outcome. If they dont need their sunday double rates to work or their are no alternatively better jobs around they wont quit and wages wont rise and we will get a fair outcome.
 

Seeds

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Sunday rates being the same as Saturday rates is fair enough. But I don't see why public holidays should be included with this. Why even call them public holidays?
Because a saturday and sundays are a holiday as well where you get paid extra if you work on them? Just like a public holiday.
 

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CakeEater

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This wont create more jobs in these sectors, especially with the retail industries ongoing track towards automation (see the takeup of self service checkouts by major retail brands).

The retail sector will in turn create less jobs and a higher profit for the owners.

I feel like this issue pretty much sums up the hypocrisy of the modern liberal party.

Trying to push Christian values on the rest of the population on certain issues (Gay Marriage), But Sundays (the recognised day of rest in Christianity and Catholicism) somehow now have no special meaning to them when it hurts their hip pocket and the hip pocket of the donors.

I would like to see a Politician asked how they reconcile that notion.
 

Number37

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Its not horseshit in the longrun. if people need their double time sunday rates to justify working then they will quit and find jobs elsewhere. Labour supply will fall and employers will be forced to push wages back up and we will get a fair outcome. If they dont need their sunday double rates to work or their are no alternatively better jobs around they wont quit and wages wont rise and we will get a fair outcome.

The submission of employer groups was that reducing penalty rates would lead to an increase in overall hours worked.
Who will get more done?
Pay 1 person $100 for a days work. Or
Pay 2 people $50 each for a days work.
 

spinynorman

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I just don't see what is special about Sunday relative to Saturday. Both are when kids aren't at school and the commerce (finance, legal worlds) halt.

So increase Saturday penalties. Instead, at a period of wage stagnation, we are cutting the earnings of the youngest, and some of the lowest paid, workers in this country. It's bad economics, it's an outrage and it doesn't pass the fairness test.

Its not horseshit in the longrun. if people need their double time sunday rates to justify working then they will quit and find jobs elsewhere. Labour supply will fall and employers will be forced to push wages back up and we will get a fair outcome. If they dont need their sunday double rates to work or their are no alternatively better jobs around they wont quit and wages wont rise and we will get a fair outcome.

That's not a fair outcome at all. People aren't going to quit and find jobs elsewhere because there aren't other jobs to go to, and however much stacking shelves or whatever else can be banal it's better than unemployment, for someone without a qualification or a trade. Again, we're cutting wages for the lowest paid workers in this country, with most of the savings to be pocketed by their wealthy employers. It's nothing like a fair outcome.

I don't know about that, it's been my experience that there are plenty of hospitality workers that would walk over their own grandmothers to get Sunday work. There's always demand for those shifts.

Yes, because they get paid extra to do that work. Take that away and there'll be less demand. And particularly for public holidays - my job out of school was at a cinema, good luck not working on Boxing Day. And now I wouldn't even be compensated with double time for that work that I basically needed to be out of the country to miss.

The submission of employer groups was that reducing penalty rates would lead to an increase in overall hours worked.
Who will get more done?
Pay 1 person $100 for a days work. Or
Pay 2 people $50 each for a days work.

Absolute nonsense. Why would I pay two people for a job that I know one person can do? I'd pay 1 person $50 and then keep the extra $50 for myself.
 

Crankyhawk

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The submission of employer groups was that reducing penalty rates would lead to an increase in overall hours worked.
Who will get more done?
Pay 1 person $100 for a days work. Or
Pay 2 people $50 each for a days work.
Or just pay $50 as only one day of work is there to do?
 

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I worked in retail until I finished uni in 2006 and Saturday rates were no different to Monday-Friday rates. Sunday and public holiday rates were higher, but being Perth in the mid 2000s the shop was open about two Sundays a year in the lead up to Christmas.

200% to work Sundays in an industry where working Sundays is a reasonable expectation is excessive. Remember that we have an established minimum wage also. This isn't America where you earn $2/hr and work for tips. It's all well and good to say that staff 'deserve' $30-40/hr to make coffees on a Sunday, but customers aren't going to pay $7-8 for a coffee to keep a cafe open. There needs to be a middle ground.

It's easy to pass opinion from the relative ivory tower of a 9-5 Monday-Friday job, but the reality is that retail and hospitality are service industries. You could be the best dish washer in the country (hai Croweater) but if you aren't prepared to work nights and weekends then it's not a particularly useful skill set. If you don't want to work nights and weekends I wouldn't advise going into hospitality and retail, and I say this as someone who worked in retail to work nights and weekends. I just don't see working weekends in those industries as hardship worthy of 150-200% pay rates.
 

tandino

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Yes, because they get paid extra to do that work. Take that away and there'll be less demand. And particularly for public holidays - my job out of school was at a cinema, good luck not working on Boxing Day. And now I wouldn't even be compensated with double time for that work that I basically needed to be out of the country to miss

And if demand falls then businesses will have to increase wages as a result. Let the businesses worry about the demand.

I worked as a console operator right out of high school back in the late 2000s. Saturday's Sunday's and Public Holidays were time and a quarter, no exceptions. "Mandatory" Christmas Day shifts. High turnover of staff but they had no issue filling job vacancies.
 

Crankyhawk

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Labor should perhaps target those industries that don't work weekends eg legal for waste (unused court infrastructure)
 

Seeds

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I worked in retail until I finished uni in 2006 and Saturday rates were no different to Monday-Friday rates. Sunday and public holiday rates were higher, but being Perth in the mid 2000s the shop was open about two Sundays a year in the lead up to Christmas.

200% to work Sundays in an industry where working Sundays is a reasonable expectation is excessive. Remember that we have an established minimum wage also. This isn't America where you earn $2/hr and work for tips. It's all well and good to say that staff 'deserve' $30-40/hr to make coffees on a Sunday, but customers aren't going to pay $7-8 for a coffee to keep a cafe open. There needs to be a middle ground.

It's easy to pass opinion from the relative ivory tower of a 9-5 Monday-Friday job, but the reality is that retail and hospitality are service industries. You could be the best dish washer in the country (hai Croweater) but if you aren't prepared to work nights and weekends then it's not a particularly useful skill set. If you don't want to work nights and weekends I wouldn't advise going into hospitality and retail, and I say this as someone who worked in retail to work nights and weekends. I just don't see working weekends in those industries as hardship worthy of 150-200% pay rates.
What jobs are 9-5? Nearly all white collar workers do heaps of work at nights and on weekends and they do it all for zero pay. Not standard pay but zero.