Fremantle Player List vs West Coast Player List

[Chopsticks]

Embley is in the company of Nathan Buckley, Luke Hodge, Steve Johnson, Simon Black, James Hird, Andrew Mcleod etc.

Are we playing 'one of these things is not like the other'?

 

[hawk life]

Revert to? I'm sure you mean refer to. I think you should learn to argue correctly. My first tip would be to thoroughly read the posts in question, I mentioned that he was moved to the half back line due to our injury list, therefore he was unable to have such an impact - in your eyes a complete let down, this may be due to your field of vision being so narrow that you fail to take in surrounding circumstances.

As for your first line, and my last comment, I believe you may need to supply further evidence than the one player you have produced. Here I'll start, Embley is in the company of Nathan Buckley, Luke Hodge, Steve Johnson, Simon Black, James Hird, Andrew Mcleod etc... You've reached back 17 years to find one Norm Smith medallist you didn't believe was worthy. He happened to play for your club. Well researched.

If you really believe this than I dont think I should be talking to such a biased supporter. No way in hell is embley in the same league as those guys you have mentioned.
I think Hodge has a huge impact and he plays off the half back line. Research again my friend, research. Ohh another one off the half back line Archer and another Andrew Mcleod. What a load of shit your arguement is about the half back line, if anything it's an easier possie to play. I think birchall had more of an impact than embley and i dont rate birch in the same league as the guys you have mentioned. I will have to do some research and get back to you on other norm smith winners. But my point was proved you dont have to be a great player to win norm smith.

Wow you are having ago at someones grammer and spelling thats a great arguement right there really hurts that one.

 

[BluesMan]

Eagles have the better list, because... Eagles have premiership players, simple!

 

[Reasonable]

All the other nonsense that has been spurted in this thread I can overlook, but Andrew Embley won a Norm Smith medal. They don't give them to overrated players as a general rule. The best player in a Grand Final match is not 'overrated' and would by definition qualify as a 'big game player'.

If everyone can just cast their memory back past 2008 they'd realise a player of Embley's calibre would be in the best 22 of any club in the league. His 2008 season he wasn't as attacking as he was played off half back as opposed to on the wing due to the injuries to our regular backline players, therefore he becomes overrated?

Think your arguments through before posting as it's best not to post such uneducated opinions.

You're doing it now, the line that he was pushed back to the half-back line due to injury is folly. He was moved there because he was having no impact in the middle.

Why? He didnt want to get his hands dirty, work hard enough or pick up the slack left by Cousins and Judd. Thats a poor effort from a senior player, interesting to note that he has been axed from the leadership also, perhaps Woosh is on to him too?

The most dissappointing aspect of Embley's season for mine was his lack of hurt from the half-back line, many times throughout the year it appeared that he was chasing stats rather than creating run, the job he was put back for, that and he couldnt find the ball in the middle.

Im not trying to detract from the fact that Embley was a Norm Smith winner, it's a fantastic achievement and on the day he thoroughly deserved it. Did he carry on that form when times werent so rosey?

No.

 

[beatlesmith]

This post is a must read for all Toasters.

In summary, no Judd, no Cousins = No Eagles.

I mean not even supercoach Worsfold, who players will apparently walk over broken glass for, could get them up.

Our list is better.

So how would freo do without their 2 best players, pav and sandilands? You would make us look like reigning premiers!

 

[fryzie]

If you really believe this than I dont think I should be talking to such a biased supporter. No way in hell is embley in the same league as those guys you have mentioned.
I think Hodge has a huge impact and he plays off the half back line. Research again my friend, research. Ohh another one off the half back line Archer and another Andrew Mcleod. What a load of shit your arguement is about the half back line, if anything it's an easier possie to play. I think birchall had more of an impact than embley and i dont rate birch in the same league as the guys you have mentioned. I will have to do some research and get back to you on other norm smith winners. But my point was proved you dont have to be a great player to win norm smith.

Wow you are having ago at someones grammer and spelling thats a great arguement right there really hurts that one.

Easier position to play does not mean you will have an immediate impact and Embley won his Norm Smith playing on the wing, his natural position. You'll find that McLeod and Archer have more impact in their natural positions.. the half back line. Since Hodge has been moved to quarter back as a half backman, he's had more impact. Embley is more natural as a wingman, and therefore of course his impact will diminish when taken out of his natural role. No research done there, just common sense.

I never asserted that he was as good as the aforementioned players. The issue I contested was that Embley was overrated and not a big game player. My rebuttal was simply that by being voted the best on ground by impartial persons in the biggest game of the year would clearly and completely destroy such an argument.

In relation to my 'having a go at your spelling and grammar', I think it would be beneficial to you if you wanted to come off as even half way credible to learn to spell the word argument before involving yourself in one.

Also, if you can find me someone who won a Norm Smith in a game that included 3 Brownlow medallists (Goodes, Cousins, Judd) then let me know. Enjoy your research possum.

 

[hamole]

If you really believe this than I dont think I should be talking to such a biased supporter. No way in hell is embley in the same league as those guys you have mentioned.
I think Hodge has a huge impact and he plays off the half back line. Research again my friend, research. Ohh another one off the half back line Archer and another Andrew Mcleod. What a load of shit your arguement is about the half back line, if anything it's an easier possie to play. I think birchall had more of an impact than embley and i dont rate birch in the same league as the guys you have mentioned. I will have to do some research and get back to you on other norm smith winners. But my point was proved you dont have to be a great player to win norm smith.

Wow you are having ago at someones grammer and spelling thats a great arguement right there really hurts that one.

If you want to talk argumentative technique, then you lost the plot a long time ago.

Number 1 golden rule in any debate: stay on topic.

We finished second last, we aren't as a good as we were a few years ago. We get it. Nobody's arguing that. To try and do that would be to miss the point entirely, or as I am going to dub it 'to do a hawk life'.

Have a look at the thread title. It's all well and good to have a look at a guy like Embley and say he's not as good as a Hodge or a Buckley but once again that's missing the point. The point is, that when you start comparing a Kerr to a Palmer and an Embley to a err... well I can't really think of any other Freo midfielders, Maybe an Ibo? Things start to look entirely different when you put them in the correct context.

Freo's forward line is better than ours. I will conceed that. However ours has alot of scope for improvement and I'm really excited to see what happens with guys like Brown and Kennedy. Neither of these sides are anywhere near a Flag and I think in about 3 years when one might be ready to push deep into September, the forward lines will be alot closer.

The midfield I would have to give to West Coast. Palmer and Sandy are the shining lights of the Freo midfield but even they are eclipsed by Cox and Kerr. The developing depth of the West Coast midfield is impressive and something I can't see Fremantle matching. That said, those depth players each only have a handfull of games and it's not something that the huge injection of youth Freo just got couldn't catch up in a season or two. We'll see.

I'll be honest, I know jack about Fremantle's defence. The main criticism I've heard people have of West Coast's defence is that it lacks depth and that it pretty much just consists of Glass. I just think this is blatantly wrong. We have a glut of young key position backs just waiting for the oppurtunity. The only area I see us lacking in up back is small defenders for the Medhursts etc of the competition. Once again I don't know anything about Freo's defence, but I'm pretty happy where ours is heading.

We are not comparing West Coast to Hawthorn or Geelong, we are comparing them to Freo. I for one think our list shows a lot more promise. I wouldn't be much of a West Coast supporter if I said otherwise. I am extremely biased, but I do still think I maintain a shred of reason.

P.S. I did not vote.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

List ratings don't mean anything. WC have the stronger list but this year played far worse football. Given Fremantles loss of experience one would expect them to perform worse than last year.

 

[Jackfrost]

We always beat WCE dude.

What's the win/loss ratio again? I'm pretty sure you have only beaten us twice in a season twice out of thirteen years.

We own Freo

 

[hawk life]

If you want to talk argumentative technique, then you lost the plot a long time ago.

Number 1 golden rule in any debate: stay on topic.

We finished second last, we aren't as a good as we were a few years ago. We get it. Nobody's arguing that. To try and do that would be to miss the point entirely, or as I am going to dub it 'to do a hawk life'.

Have a look at the thread title. It's all well and good to have a look at a guy like Embley and say he's not as good as a Hodge or a Buckley but once again that's missing the point. The point is, that when you start comparing a Kerr to a Palmer and an Embley to a err... well I can't really think of any other Freo midfielders, Maybe an Ibo? Things start to look entirely different when you put them in the correct context.

Freo's forward line is better than ours. I will conceed that. However ours has alot of scope for improvement and I'm really excited to see what happens with guys like Brown and Kennedy. Neither of these sides are anywhere near a Flag and I think in about 3 years when one might be ready to push deep into September, the forward lines will be alot closer.

The midfield I would have to give to West Coast. Palmer and Sandy are the shining lights of the Freo midfield but even they are eclipsed by Cox and Kerr. The developing depth of the West Coast midfield is impressive and something I can't see Fremantle matching. That said, those depth players each only have a handfull of games and it's not something that the huge injection of youth Freo just got couldn't catch up in a season or two. We'll see.

I'll be honest, I know jack about Fremantle's defence. The main criticism I've heard people have of West Coast's defence is that it lacks depth and that it pretty much just consists of Glass. I just think this is blatantly wrong. We have a glut of young key position backs just waiting for the oppurtunity. The only area I see us lacking in up back is small defenders for the Medhursts etc of the competition. Once again I don't know anything about Freo's defence, but I'm pretty happy where ours is heading.

We are not comparing West Coast to Hawthorn or Geelong, we are comparing them to Freo. I for one think our list shows a lot more promise. I wouldn't be much of a West Coast supporter if I said otherwise. I am extremely biased, but I do still think I maintain a shred of reason.

P.S. I did not vote.

Can you please read my first few posts before you decide to have a go at me about getting off topic. Maybe you need to talk to your fellow supporters about getting off subject.
I commented on which list is better than the other at this stage. I even mentioned that west coast had a better midfield at the moment. Ladder position does come into where the list is at and to say it doesnt is ignorant.

I never compared Hawthorn's list to yours so please save this for another day. What i said was i see a lot in west coast at the mo compared to our list a few years ago with out a franklin. Nat maybe him but will take longer to develop.

I even said west coast has potential but this thread is about which list is better and I think it's freos and I gave reasons for it.

West coast has a long way to go so does freo but Freo has a better core group of players at the moment in my opinion. west coast don't have depth in defence yet they do have a lot of younger players coming through but that doesnt relate to depth YET!!!

Yes of course you have to believe and have a strong opinion about your list but it's idiots that think it's better than what it is that pisses me off and cant see reason.

I dont even hate west coast but when supporters are talking shit like west coast will finish in the top 6 next year then i stirr them up even more.

 

[hamole]

Can you please read my first few posts before you decide to have a go at me about getting off topic. Maybe you need to talk to your fellow supporters about getting off subject.
I commented on which list is better than the other at this stage. I even mentioned that west coast had a better midfield at the moment. Ladder position does come into where the list is at and to say it doesnt is ignorant.

I never compared Hawthorn's list to yours so please save this for another day. What i said was i see a lot in west coast at the mo compared to our list a few years ago with out a franklin. Nat maybe him but will take longer to develop.

I even said west coast has potential but this thread is about which list is better and I think it's freos and I gave reasons for it.

West coast has a long way to go so does freo but Freo has a better core group of players at the moment in my opinion. west coast don't have depth in defence yet they do have a lot of younger players coming through but that doesnt relate to depth YET!!!

Yes of course you have to believe and have a strong opinion about your list but it's idiots that think it's better than what it is that pisses me off and cant see reason.

I dont even hate west coast but when supporters are talking shit like west coast will finish in the top 6 next year then i stirr them up even more.

This is obviously some kind of getting off topic I was previously unaware of, where if you do it later, it doesn't count.

You went on for a good while about how we were simply making 'excuses' with our injures. Of course we are. To say that every AFL club has injures doesn't make that excuse any less valid. The fact is we had a lot of injuries and not just to also-ran players, a lot more than more other AFL clubs.This is very relevant to a discussion of list strength because it's hard to display how strong your list is when half of it is sitting on the side lines injured. It also serves to counter your ladder arguement. It can not entirely explain how badly we played this year but it did have a lot to do with it.

Perhaps you didn't compare our list but you had an extended rant about Embley. The claim from West Coast supporters was that he was a big game player. We evidenced this with his Norm Smith Medal. Listing the other Norm Smith Medalists doesn't mean we think Embley is as good as them, that's just silly. It shows that he can turn it on when it counts and compete with the stars of the game when it matters most. To put it simply, he is a big game player. Show me a Freo player who can do the same.*

*I am fully prepared to get owned on this one because I know very little about any Freo players.

 

[Obeanie1]

Please keep this email. I want you to. If i am wrong I will admitt defeat but I am pretty confident in what I am saying. Your club is in shambles and you admitted it at least you are honest. i like that.

But I am very sorry you brought Hawthorn into this because that is embarrassing to say the least. Remember we didn't have Croad for half of the grandfinal and we won. He didnt play at the start of the year either last year and we won without him. We can rely on other people to step up unlike some teams I know. Croad and Hodge won't be out for that long so please check information before writing it. Just a hint for you.

The worst thing that you wrote wasnt even the hawks arguement but the fact that you have admitted your team cheated and tanked at the end of the season. Thats some funny shit rite there.

Anyway good luck for next year I hope you book your holidays early, september can be a busy time organising holidays in WA. LOL!!!!

Gee, you must be loving all this attention.

Firstly I have no problem at all admitting 2008 was a shambles, it was, it was obvious and the Cousins drama was our own fault and was handled poorly. The injuries suffered by our senior players simply compounded the problem, no one is crying about it but it is a relevant point and if either Hawthorn or Geelong had similar injuries to similar players neither would have made the GF and you wouldn't be such a cocky supporter.

As to you claim I'm admitting that the Eagles tanked that is incorrect and dishonest on your part. I'm not sure what drugs your mob take but players with fractured legs, OP, dislocated elbows, fractured ankles and serious knee and shoulder injuries can't play at AFL level if at all. So you get them fixed ASAP, that is not tanking, taking Fev off the field because he was on fire and looked like winning the game off his own boot, now that is tanking.

My point about Croad and Hodge is still valid. If you lose both these guys your premiership defence is over. You think they won't be out for long, well good for you, I said if you lose them, that means their not playing in finals.

For some homework just go and list the players West Coast lost through injury and match them like for like with your mob and take them out of your team. Then with both eyes open and your hand on your heart list your best 22 without these players and tell us the Hawks would have been premiers in 2008.

You

 

[Obeanie1]

Please keep this email. I want you to. If i am wrong I will admitt defeat but I am pretty confident in what I am saying. Your club is in shambles and you admitted it at least you are honest. i like that.

But I am very sorry you brought Hawthorn into this because that is embarrassing to say the least. Remember we didn't have Croad for half of the grandfinal and we won. He didnt play at the start of the year either last year and we won without him. We can rely on other people to step up unlike some teams I know. Croad and Hodge won't be out for that long so please check information before writing it. Just a hint for you.

The worst thing that you wrote wasnt even the hawks arguement but the fact that you have admitted your team cheated and tanked at the end of the season. Thats some funny shit rite there.

Anyway good luck for next year I hope you book your holidays early, september can be a busy time organising holidays in WA. LOL!!!!

Gee, you must be loving all this attention.

Firstly I have no problem at all admitting 2008 was a shambles, it was, it was obvious and the Cousins drama was our own fault and was handled poorly. The injuries suffered by our senior players simply compounded the problem, no one is crying about it but it is a relevant point and if either Hawthorn or Geelong had similar injuries to similar players neither would have made the GF and you wouldn't be such a cocky supporter.

As to you claim I'm admitting that the Eagles tanked that is incorrect and dishonest on your part. I'm not sure what drugs your mob take but players with fractured legs, OP, dislocated elbows, fractured ankles and serious knee and shoulder injuries can't play at AFL level if at all. So you get them fixed ASAP, that is not tanking, taking Fev off the field because he was on fire and looked like winning the game off his own boot, now that is tanking.

My point about Croad and Hodge is still valid. If you lose both these guys your premiership defence is over. You think they won't be out for long, well good for you, I said if you lose them, that means their not playing in finals.

For some homework just go and list the players West Coast lost through injury and match them like for like with your mob and take them out of your team. Then with both eyes open and your hand on your heart list your best 22 without these players and tell us the Hawks would have been premiers in 2008.

You have to have a bit of luck to win a flag and last year the injury gods smiled at Hawthorn, its a fact.

 

[hawk life]

This is obviously some kind of getting off topic I was previously unaware of, where if you do it later, it doesn't count.

You went on for a good while about how we were simply making 'excuses' with our injures. Of course we are. To say that every AFL club has injures doesn't make that excuse any less valid. The fact is we had a lot of injuries and not just to also-ran players, a lot more than more other AFL clubs.This is very relevant to a discussion of list strength because it's hard to display how strong your list is when half of it is sitting on the side lines injured. It also serves to counter your ladder arguement. It can not entirely explain how badly we played this year but it did have a lot to do with it.

Perhaps you didn't compare our list but you had an extended rant about Embley. The claim from West Coast supporters was that he was a big game player. We evidenced this with his Norm Smith Medal. Listing the other Norm Smith Medalists doesn't mean we think Embley is as good as them, that's just silly. It shows that he can turn it on when it counts and compete with the stars of the game when it matters most. To put it simply, he is a big game player. Show me a Freo player who can do the same.*

*I am fully prepared to get owned on this one because I know very little about any Freo players.

I was just commenting on what other people where saying.

To be a big game player doesn't make you a great player, I no this is a bit left field but Mark Mcgough won 2 Anzac day medals (i no he won 1) for Collingwood which is regared as a big game (Please don't think I am comparing anzac day to a grandfinal) but that doesnt mean he is a great player. Embley I think could be anything but he needs to step up he failed last year when he could have really shown he belongs with the best. I know judd, cousins and Kerr all make other players better but he was a leader and now he is not that says something about the year he had.

Anyway I still think Pav is big game player yes he had his moments last year but the years before that he stepped up. Look out for him come next year.

I dont no why I am sticking up for freo where the hell are their supporters!!!! God if someone from essendon started on my team there would be hell to pay. LOL

 

[wce4premiership]

sorry guys wasn't meant to vote didn't read the op

 

[fryzie]

The claim from West Coast supporters was that he was a big game player. We evidenced this with his Norm Smith Medal.

Good God you're a lawyer.

 

[fryzie]

Embley I think could be anything but he needs to step up he failed last year when he could have really shown he belongs with the best.

Anyway I still think Pav is big game player yes he had his moments last year but the years before that he stepped up. Look out for him come next year.

By this reasoning it is okay for Pav, as the Captain and number one forward, to miss crucial goals that would win the match for his team but because he stepped up the years leading up to 2008 he will bounce back come next year, yet Embley has a bad season following a massive change in dynamic to the midfield due to the loss of two Brownlow winning midfielders and he's a failure?

You cannot compare Pavlich to Embley, one is a forward the other plays predominantly on the wing, however if you had to have one of those two in your team 90% of people would likely want Pav. But Pavlich v Embley is not what I am arguing here - I was, and still am simply defending the fact that Embley is a big game player and once our team is free of injuries and our midfield adjusts to the loss of Cousins and Judd, you will see a much higher standard of football from him.

 

[bodazoka]

We are absolutely 100% guaranteed to finish above Fremantle next year. Save it, carve it in stone, put it in your signatures it will happen.

Inevitability people..

 

[Cica]

By this reasoning it is okay for Pav, as the Captain and number one forward, to miss crucial goals that would win the match for his team but because he stepped up the years leading up to 2008 he will bounce back come next year, yet Embley has a bad season following a massive change in dynamic to the midfield due to the loss of two Brownlow winning midfielders and he's a failure?

You cannot compare Pavlich to Embley, one is a forward the other plays predominantly on the wing, however if you had to have one of those two in your team 90% of people would likely want Pav. But Pavlich v Embley is not what I am arguing here - I was, and still am simply defending the fact that Embley is a big game player and once our team is free of injuries and our midfield adjusts to the loss of Cousins and Judd, you will see a much higher standard of football from him.

First of all Pavlich and Embley can not be placed in the same category. One is a superstar of the competition and the other one is above average player at best.

Pavlich does not need to bounce back. He had an outstanding season like he always does. There was a lot on his shoulders last year and yes he did hit a post against Carlton and Sydney that 99 out of 100 times he would have slotted it through. However, it is highly unlikely that any player could repeat that the following year yet alone Pavlich. Embley had a crap season last year and Pavlich had never had one.

BTW it is easier to be a big name player with Cousins and Judd in your team. Their presence by itself makes any other player around them much more confident plus they always have the best taggers on them. Anyway, Embley had a crap year without Cousins and Judd in his team. Let's see how he goes next year but I definitely think he is overrated by Eagles fans.

We are absolutely 100% guaranteed to finish above Fremantle next year. Save it, carve it in stone, put it in your signatures it will happen.

Inevitability people..

There is no need to be arrogant. In AFL nothing is 100% guaranteed otherwise TAB would go down.

 

[fryzie]

First of all Pavlich and Embley can not be placed in the same category. One is a superstar of the competition and the other one is above average player at best.

I think you'll find I stated that you cannot compare Embley and Pavlich. Why argue the fact further?

Pavlich does not need to bounce back. He had an outstanding season like he always does. There was a lot on his shoulders last year and yes he did hit a post against Carlton and Sydney

This was exactly what my rebuttal was concerning, the accusations that Embley failed to breakout as a leader. Pavlich had the chance to win several games on his own boot as the leader, one such time against Geelong at Subiaco if I recall correctly, and failed to do deliver.

it is easier to be a big name player with Cousins and Judd in your team. Their presence by itself makes any other player around them much more confident plus they always have the best taggers on them. Anyway, Embley had a crap year without Cousins and Judd in his team. Let's see how he goes next year but I definitely think he is overrated by Eagles fans.

You've basically summed up what I was trying to convey, season 2008 brought major changes to the West Coast team as a whole.. without players like Judd and Cousins the midfield dynamic changed dramatically and it will take a while for players to adjust. Even an elite midfielder like Kerr struggled with tags and lack of support.

 

[Cica]

I think you'll find I stated that you cannot compare Embley and Pavlich. Why argue the fact further?

When I said that you cannot place them in the same category I did not say you cannot compare them but rather on pure playing ability Pavlich is a superstar of the competition. Embley. And Pavlich should not be even used in the same sentence when discussing who is a better player. Players do not have to play the same positions on the field for people to judge who is better and that is why most of us say that Pavlich is the best Fremantle player although all our players do not play up forward.

This was exactly what my rebuttal was concerning, the accusations that Embley failed to breakout as a leader. Pavlich had the chance to win several games on his own boot as the leader, one such time against Geelong at Subiaco if I recall correctly, and failed to do deliver.

I did not want to mention Geelong game because the kick was 50m out on 45 degrees angle and it scraped inside of the post when for all money it looked like a goal. If you want to judge him on that kick you can say that he failed to deliver but I won't because it was a pretty good kick but it just wasn't meant to be our day. So if the kick was 5cm to the other side he would be a big game player? I say that is very unfair judgement.

You've basically summed up what I was trying to convey, season 2008 brought major changes to the West Coast team as a whole.. without players like Judd and Cousins the midfield dynamic changed dramatically and it will take a while for players to adjust. Even an elite midfielder like Kerr struggled with tags and lack of support.

Exactly. So what you are saying is that the first time Embley played without Judd and Cousins he failed to deliver. That is the fact. Time will tell how he goes once you adjust but you are definitely taking a long time because there was not any improvement seen by your team for the entire year.

 

[fryzie]

When I said that you cannot place them in the same category I did not say you cannot compare them but rather on pure playing ability Pavlich is a superstar of the competition. Embley. And Pavlich should not be even used in the same sentence when discussing who is a better player. Players do not have to play the same positions on the field for people to judge who is better and that is why most of us say that Pavlich is the best Fremantle player although all our players do not play up forward.

If you scroll up I was just pointing out the fractured logic of the Hawthorn supporter - If you read my post you'll find my submission that this is not a Pavlich v Embley argument, and conceded that almost anyone would rather Pavlich in their side. The argument concerned Embley's impact as a 'big game player'.

I did not want to mention Geelong game because the kick was 50m out on 45 degrees angle and it scraped inside of the post when for all money it looked like a goal. If you want to judge him on that kick you can say that he failed to deliver but I won't because it was a pretty good kick but it just wasn't meant to be our day. So if the kick was 5cm to the other side he would be a big game player? I say that is very unfair judgement.

I say that is a classic Captain's goal. From memory Voss kicked a 70 odd metre goal in a grand final to put the Lions in front.

The point was not that this particular kick just missed. It happened on at least three seperate occasions, therefore the judgement is on all missed opportunities to win the match, not just that one.

Exactly. So what you are saying is that the first time Embley played without Judd and Cousins he failed to deliver. That is the fact. Time will tell how he goes once you adjust but you are definitely taking a long time because there was not any improvement seen by your team for the entire year.

He was not really given an opportunity to adjust, through injuries to key players and the blooding of youngsters the team never settled into any sort of stability. Some weeks we had up to seven or eight changes to the squad, give Embley a full season in a settled team before we start calling him a failure is all I suggest. The bloke is a Norm Smith winning premiership player that is only 28 this year (I believe). He may not be the same quality as Pavlich, but definately not someone I would be writing off just yet.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Whoops voted before I read the OP.

 

[Norman Ross]

I think we are all forgetting how poor this West Coast side was in 2008. It played some of the worst football seen this decade, over-using the ball, poor skills and a distinct lack of pace. Very few players had the skill or confidence to take on the opposition.

Opposition coaches realised this and let players run loose in the backline racking up cheap stats. Clarkson famously stated he didnt care how many possies guys like Kerr or Priddis and even Embley racked up, he was more concerned where they picked up their stats.

I think guys like Priddis and Embley have and will be overrated by their own supporters. I admire Priddis's workrate and tackling ability but he lacks pace and hurt factor with his kicks. Embley may have good aerobic capacity but I think he fed of the inside work of Judd and Cousins for many years. His inability to find the ball in the middle saw Worsfold move him to the Half-back line, just to get in the game.

Kerr is an elite midfielder.

The problem West Coast face is not having anyone of his quality to stand next to him, he is taken out of the game too easily. Coaches will back their mids to go head to head with blokes like Priddis, Masten, Ebert and Selwood and be more damaging. Masten hasnt the frame to play AFL yet and Ebert tends to rush his disposal, that will improve. Priddis is too slow and Selwood is a good run with player. There is no creativity or pace once Kerr is nullified.

Im not saying these kids wont improve, they undoubtedly will. But it wont happen overnight. You cant expect Swift who hasnt played a senior game of football in his life to come in and rip games apart, nor Shuey nor Smith. They're still just kids.

Then there is the issue of the forward line, for some reason, Worsfold seems to think Hansen is AFL quality, he's not. He can take a chest mark and kick the ball relatively straight, that's it. I like the look of Kennedy, but the options for a full forward look fairly shallow. Mitch Brown hasnt played for a year and is coming off a knee and Notte is a stick. Neither will have an immediate impact. Lynch is not good enough with his conversion and seems to have moved further up the ground. Mckinely is another who shows promise, but he relies on space, he's a little too undersized to play as a permanent FF.

The other problem West Coast face is making their forward line function cohesively, it hasnt had any real chemistry since Scott Cummings won the Coleman. That has to be sorted out.

Thats my assesment of West Coast at the moment.

Pretty much spot on.

 

[Cica]

If you scroll up I was just pointing out the fractured logic of the Hawthorn supporter - If you read my post you'll find my submission that this is not a Pavlich v Embley argument, and conceded that almost anyone would rather Pavlich in their side. The argument concerned Embley's impact as a 'big game player'.

Well, my argument was more regarding your comment that they cannot be compared. Every player can be compared to each other but it is easier to compare them when they play at the same/similar field positions. There are many attributes that define the player and IMO Pavlich wins most of them over Embley. As you said this is not Pavlich vs Embley and we should let it go but I'd agree that Embley did play well in WC big games alongside Judd and Cousins.

I say that is a classic Captain's goal. From memory Voss kicked a 70 odd metre goal in a grand final to put the Lions in front.

The point was not that this particular kick just missed. It happened on at least three seperate occasions, therefore the judgement is on all missed opportunities to win the match, not just that one.

He did miss a classic captain's goal by couple of cm and I do not know even today how that ball drifted to the right so much because I saw it in. Anyway, that did not affect my opinion about Pavlich at all.

Posters against Carlton and Sydney made me think but IMO it was due to the huge burden that he had on his shoulders all last year plus the fact that we had all these near misses. It gets into everyone's head eventually. Other than that he was very, very accurate all season. As I said, I doubt you will ever see Pavlich miss goals such as ones against Sydney and Carlton again regardless if it is going to be a big game or not.

He was not really given an opportunity to adjust, through injuries to key players and the blooding of youngsters the team never settled into any sort of stability. Some weeks we had up to seven or eight changes to the squad, give Embley a full season in a settled team before we start calling him a failure is all I suggest. The bloke is a Norm Smith winning premiership player that is only 28 this year (I believe). He may not be the same quality as Pavlich, but definately not someone I would be writing off just yet.

It is a fact that Embley had a poor season in the same way that it is a fact that he performed well in big games alogside Cousins and Judd. The rest are really excuses and assumptions. Pavlich also had to settle in last year due to million different positions he had to play in. I never said I would write Embley off as he is definitely one of your top 10 players and is far from being a failure.