Banter Geelong V Richmond - GO!

[Wosh]

In the interests of keeping your back and forth shite fights out of match threads so normal people can talk.

Keep it clean and above the shorts
Off topic rubbish clogging up match threads will be moved here, knock yourselves out.

 

[Mr Meow]

He got a rising start nom and 2 under 22 selections.

He was an elite kid as well.

I also just gave you 2 example of him an AA team/squad when our team finished 13th. Like what else do you want?

And again you think playing well is more impressive when you are losing. It’s such backwards thinking. Every other fan base in the world doesn’t do this. If you give this opinion to Americans or Europeans they’d laugh at you like you have two heads.

Give me the Bont/Daicos 2023 comparison. Bont didn't play finals so has to be downgraded, right?

Martin was a decent player before breaking out into an elite one for 5 years and then having a disappointing 30s. It's still a very good career.

 

[Cleansweep17]

It's not about making guesses, it's about using the games that they played. Neale had an outstanding 17 game H&A season (carrying the fragile Lions, let's be honest), was okay in a QF they romped in and then outstanding in a losing prelim. So yes his season standard was higher than Martin's, but Martin was in a better knockout finals team and was outstanding for those last 3 weeks. It doesn't mean he bridged the gap before that. And it doesn't mean Neale gets marked down for doing all he could in a prelim but his team mates getting bullied by Geelong.

So “based on the games they played” you’d rather have the best H&A player who played 1 good final over the AA team, Finals MVP, NS guy? Have I got that right?

I’ll ask another question.

Who’s season was better GAJ 2013 (no finals) or Dusty 2020?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Yes which is why Ablett got 80% of the best midfielder votes and Martin got 2% in the recent poll. 40x as many people have Ablett well above, which is the whole reason you keep dragging these topics back up furiously.

We've already gone through Ablett's peak finals catalogue before, where he was universally recognised as THE best finals performer of the 2007-2010 period. While also being the best in H&A.

Martin achieved this in 2017. In 2018 he didn't achieve either. In 2019 and 2020 he was best finals player. So as a 4 year period it doesn't come close to Ablett's 2007-2010. And boy does that annoy you, despite you not even watching footy back then.

And doesn’t even make the top 20 (old article from 2016)

Like I said, nobody remembers him for being a great finals player. You have drunk the kool-aid

AFL finals 2016: The top 20 finals heroes of the past 50 years

amp.theage.com.au

 

[Mr Meow]

So “based on the games they played” you’d rather have the best H&A player who played 1 good final over the AA team, Finals MVP, NS guy? Have I got that right?

I’ll ask another question.

Who’s season was better GAJ 2013 (no finals) or Dusty 2020?

Yes, because swap Neale and Martin and Brisbane still lose a prelim and Richmond go on to win the flag. They had a better team.

I don't automatically put Steve Johnson's 2007 ahead of Simon Black's just because he was an AA player with an outstanding finals series.

GAJ in 2013 was a better player than Martin in 2020. You are having a laugh if you think 2013 Ablett wouldn't dominate against the B cast of teams Martin played against in the 2020 finals series.

Martin had 40 odd coaches votes in H&A, played a stinker final when Richmond lost and then had 3 outstanding ones. That is not a better season than 2013 GAJ. You are simply ranking based on the team's performance.

 

[Mr Meow]

And doesn’t even make the top 20 (old article from 2016)

Like I said, nobody removers him for being a great finals player. You have drunk the kool-aid

AFL finals 2016: The top 20 finals heroes of the past 50 years

amp.theage.com.au

Who are your top 10 finals performers (in order) from the 2007-2010 period? And how many of the games did you watch, and how recently?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Yes, because swap Neale and Martin and Brisbane still lose a prelim and Richmond go on to win the flag. They had a better team.

I don't automatically put Steve Johnson's 2007 ahead of Simon Black's just because he was an AA player with an outstanding finals series.

GAJ in 2013 was a better player than Martin in 2020. You are having a laugh if you think 2013 Ablett wouldn't dominate against the B cast of teams Martin played against in the 2020 finals series.

Martin had 40 odd coaches votes in H&A, played a stinker final when Richmond lost and then had 3 outstanding ones. That is not a better season than 2013 GAJ. You are simply ranking based on the team's performance.

You think H&A is the main event by think this way, that’s the problem.

You keep conflating “the season” with “H&A season”

So many players are great H&A players then butcher it in finals. That’s why the saying is finals is a whole other ballgame/new season.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Who are your top 10 finals performers (in order) from the 2007-2010 period? And how many of the games did you watch, and how recently?

I don’t know, I’m apparently too young to answer. Oh well.

 

[STPer18]

The elephant in the room is that the supposed GOAT finals performer is going to retire with less premierships than Geelong skipper Joel Selwood.

 

[Mr Meow]

You think H&A is the main event by think this way, that’s the problem.

You keep conflating “the season” with “H&A season”

So many players are great H&A players then butcher it in finals. That’s why the saying is finals is a whole other ballgame/new season.

Nope, and I've already said I downgrade players seasons if they are mediocre or worse in important finals. Neale being okay in an easy QF win and brilliant in a losing prelim isn't just cause to wipe out his season.

I just don't mark Bontempelli's 2023 down because he played zero finals while JDG played in 3 and was vital for a premiership, for instance. You would automatically have JDG, Daicos and probably even Crisp and Bobby Hill over Bontempelli for 2023.

 

[Mr Meow]

I don’t know, I’m apparently too young to answer. Oh well.

Can you name a top 3?

This is like the AA forward line. Why ridicule others assertions when you don't even have an alternative yourself?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Give me the Bont/Daicos 2023 comparison. Bont didn't play finals so has to be downgraded, right?

Martin was a decent player before breaking out into an elite one for 5 years and then having a disappointing 30s. It's still a very good career.

Daicos (I assume you mean Nick) was better in 2023

 

[Cleansweep17]

Can you name a top 3?

This is like the AA forward line. Why ridicule others assertions when you don't even have an alternative yourself?

Bartel

Johnson

Chapman

Hodge

Pendlebury

Too hard to rank as some are better as players and some as leaders.

 

[Mr Meow]

Daicos (I assume you mean Nick) was better in 2023

Dangerfield vs Bontempelli/Matthew Boyd 2016 (AAs who played well in finals in a premiership team)?

 

[Mr Meow]

Bartel

Johnson

Chapman

Hodge

Pendlebury

Too hard to rank as some are better as players and some as leaders.

The top 5 has to be in order and you need to list players until you get to Ablett (whether he's 6th or 20th it doesn't matter). Then we can move to the next bit.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Dangerfield vs Bontempelli/Matthew Boyd 2016 (AAs who played well in finals in a premiership team)?

1. Dangerfield

Bont and Boyd weren’t good enough in finals

 

[PhatBoy]

He got a rising start nom and 2x under 22 selections.

He was an elite kid as well.

I also just gave you 2 examples of him getting an AA team/squad when our team finished 13th. Like what else do you want?

And again you think playing well is more impressive when you are losing. It’s such backwards thinking. Every other fan base in the world doesn’t do this. If you give this opinion to Americans or Europeans they’d laugh at you like you have two heads.

Americans for starters are one of the dumbest races known to man. These are people who think it’s smarter to arm psychopaths than ensure they can’t have access to high powered weapons. Their sports are also built around simply going wherever you want to try and win things. One of their primary sports is basically a matter of who has the best quarterback. Another is a five team sport so its dependence on one player is far higher than any other. If I wanted to hear from a deadshit about sport, I would listen to an American.

The Europeans - especially the English? Their entire sporting landscape is focused around a competition that has had four teams win all but three titles in its existence and where you can be the best player on the field by 150 per cent and it probably won’t matter because there is $500 million worth of talent in the opposing forward line so your effort will ultimately end in defeat. Oh yeah, their opinion is incredibly valued.


How do you not realise that as great as it is to play well in a functioning team and influence results, it is just as meritorious to perform when things are shit? How is it possible to not understand that? Even the other night while your team was getting absolutely f**king annihilated, Nick Vlastuin was the one player actually trying and my respect was growing every time he threw himself into another contest because not only was he trying, he was playing well when no one around him gave a shit and the Dogs were cutting you to pieces.

 

[Mr Meow]

Americans for starters are one of the dumbest races known to man. These are people who think it’s smarter to arm psychopaths than ensure they can’t have access to high powered weapons. Their sports are also built around simply going wherever you want to try and win things. One of their primary sports is basically a matter of who has the best quarterback. Another is a five team sport so its dependence on one player is far higher than any other. If I wanted to hear from a deadshit about sport, I would listen to an American.

The Europeans - especially the English? Their entire sporting landscape is focused around a competition that has had four teams win all but three titles in its existence and where you can be the best player on the field by 150 per cent and it probably won’t matter because there is $500 million worth of talent in the opposing forward line so your effort will ultimately end in defeat. Oh yeah, their opinion is incredibly valued.


How do you not realise that as great as it is to play well in a functioning team and influence results, it is just as meritorious to perform when things are s**t? How is it possible to not understand that? Even the other night while your team was getting absolutely f**king annihilated, Nick Vlastuin was the one player actually trying and my respect was growing every time he threw himself into another contest because not only was he trying, he was playing well when no one around him gave a s**t and the Dogs were cutting you to pieces.

In Cleany's world the only relevant Vlastuin performances have been in premiership seasons where his team and defence was the dominant finals force. He is to blame when it has gone wrong otherwise, despite being in AA form this season.

Cleany says "give me Astbury 2019 over Vlastuin 2023 any day. One was a good performer in a premiership team, the other was simply a loser".

 

[Cleansweep17]

Americans for starters are one of the dumbest races known to man. These are people who think it’s smarter to arm psychopaths than ensure they can’t have access to high powered weapons. Their sports are also built around simply going wherever you want to try and win things. One of their primary sports is basically a matter of who has the best quarterback. Another is a five team sport so its dependence on one player is far higher than any other. If I wanted to hear from a deadshit about sport, I would listen to an American.

The Europeans - especially the English? Their entire sporting landscape is focused around a competition that has had four teams win all but three titles in its existence and where you can be the best player on the field by 150 per cent and it probably won’t matter because there is $500 million worth of talent in the opposing forward line so your effort will ultimately end in defeat. Oh yeah, their opinion is incredibly valued.


How do you not realise that as great as it is to play well in a functioning team and influence results, it is just as meritorious to perform when things are s**t? How is it possible to not understand that? Even the other night while your team was getting absolutely f**king annihilated, Nick Vlastuin was the one player actually trying and my respect was growing every time he threw himself into another contest because not only was he trying, he was playing well when no one around him gave a s**t and the Dogs were cutting you to pieces.

If GAS won you the 89 GF would his performance be seen as better? Yes or No?

Let’s end this pitty party nonsense, we all know winning makes your game better not worse.

But yeah dismissing all of America and Europe. Nice coping.

 

[Cleansweep17]

In Cleany's world the only relevant Vlastuin performances have been in premiership seasons where his team and defence was the dominant finals force. He is to blame when it has gone wrong otherwise, despite being in AA form this season.

Cleany says "give me Astbury 2019 over Vlastuin 2023 any day. One was a good performer in a premiership team, the other was simply a loser".

That’s not what I said but ok. You actually have to be great in finals, not carried for me to think the season is better than the H&A guy.

I’m not saying Bobby Hill was better than Daicos in 2023.

 

[Mr Meow]

If GAS won you the 89 GF would his performance be seen as better? Yes or No?

Let’s end this pitty party nonsense, we all know winning makes your game better not worse.

But yeah dismissing all of America and Europe. Nice coping.

I live over here and your assertions on what Europeans think are misplaced, to say the least. Messi was still ranked higher when Ronaldo was in consistently Champions League winning sides. Salah was winning player of the year when Liverpool weren't Premier League champions. Mbappe has consistently been rated top 3 in the world despite playing in a farmer's league and his side failing to win the big one (Champions League).

 

[Mr Meow]

That’s not what I said but ok. You actually have to be great in finals, not carried for me to think the season is better than the H&A guy.

I’m not saying Bobby Hill was better than Daicos in 2023.

Neale was great in 50% of his 2020 finals. Martin was great in 75% of his finals, but in a better side that got to play 4 finals instead of 2.

And that's what has in your eyes made him overcome Neale having over twice as many coaches votes before the finals series started.

Swap the teams Neale and Martin played for and you would have Neale so far ahead of Martin it isn't funny. Martin would've simply sunk with the Lions in the prelim like Neale did. Remember we KNOW what Martin played like in losing finals: 2013 EF, 2014 EF, 2015 EF, 2018 PF, 2022 EF: he crumbled.

 

[PhatBoy]

If GAS won you the 89 GF would his performance be seen as better? Yes or No?

Let’s end this pitty party nonsense, we all know winning makes your game better not worse.

But yeah dismissing all of America and Europe. Nice coping.

No. It would be seen the same.

The result at the end of the game doesn’t retrospectively sprinkle the goals he kicked earlier during it, with fairy dust. Or does it?
It doesn’t add goals to his tally. Or does it? It doesn’t make his hits harder. Or does it? It doesn’t add height to his marks. Or does it? His performance remains identical. That’s it.

Yes, I’m dismissing the views of America and Europe. I’m dismissing the views of people whose views I dismiss. Amazing I know. Same as you dismiss everyone else’s on this site, in order to, as you so regularly like to say, using your favourite word in the world, ‘cope.’

No one on big footy agrees with you so you start these stupid back and forths with the only people bored enough to bother even engaging, because you are either incredibly bored yourself or you don’t like the fact that people don’t rate things in the same order you do.

it’s the only two possible explanations so which is it

 

[Cleansweep17]

I live over here and your assertions on what Europeans think are misplaced, to say the least. Messi was still ranked higher when Ronaldo was in consistently Champions League winning sides. Salah was winning player of the year when Liverpool weren't Premier League champions. Mbappe has consistently been rated top 3 in the world despite playing in a farmer's league and his side failing to win the big one (Champions League).

Ok so would GAS’s 89 GF performance been seen as better or worse if you guys just won it?

I know you know the answer, I’ve heard you say it many times about some of Snr and Jnr’s prelims.

This is a fundamental value of sporting fans.

 

[Mr Meow]

Ok so would GAS’s 89 GF performance been seen as better or worse if you guys just won it?

I know you know the answer, I’ve heard you say it many times about some of Snr and Jnr’s prelims.

Once you get back to me with your top 2007-2010 finals players (in order) up until where you place Ablett, then I can field further questions.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Once you get back to me with your top 2007-2010 finals players (in order) up until where you place Ablett, then I can field further questions.

I gave you the 5, I honestly don’t know after that.