No Oppo Supporters General AFL Discussion #12 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

[Gethelred]

If that was the NRL, these players would have been stood down for at least a fortnight...

Too much power this players association...

I have a question. League has 13 on the field, 4 on the bench; how big is each team's list? Have league teams in similar situations to WC right now - in which between injury and Covid, they are sorely lacking for players to take the field - suspended players?

I suppose my question is, is the comparison an apt one?

 

[RPCB]

Agent Jack must be feeling pretty good today.

 

[goreds]

I have a question. League has 13 on the field, 4 on the bench; how big is each team's list? Have league teams in similar situations to WC right now - in which between injury and Covid, they are sorely lacking for players to take the field - suspended players?

I suppose my question is, is the comparison an apt one?

YES it is...

They have plenty of feeder clubs and can call players up with no issue.

I don't think the issue here is Covid, my mail is they wanted to suspend players but they 'couldn't'. To my point, the NRL HQ and especially Peter V'landys would not tolerate any of that rubbish.

Players would have been suspended by the league and the clubs would have to suck it up and get control of the players in question. He is a big believer in 'the game is much bigger than the player'...

Clubs have learned quickly in the NRL, players are so much better behaved because of the zero tolerance...

 

[thylacine60]

Geez, Jack Ziebell

7

Jack Ziebell

Age

33

Ht

188cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.1

5star

K

12.8

5star

HB

6.3

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

4.6

5star

MG

369.5

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

3.2

3star

T

1.6

3star

MG

125.8

2star

D

16.2

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

4.8

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

3.0

5star

spoke about as well as a skipper under pressure can today.

 

[JoeyPBLUES]

Agent Jack must be feeling pretty good today.

Maybe he just needed to be told. Looks like he knows Jack was right

 

[blueboy25]

If that was the NRL, these players would have been stood down for at least a fortnight...

Too much power this players association...

So the AFL should stand down the Richmond players who were out that night as well?

How many players this season have been out to pubs, clubs, restaurants etc? Good luck banning players doing something that is not illegal.

 

[Bletch]

Agent Jack must be feeling pretty good today.

Perspective - the previous 4 number one picks were all re-signed after a handful of matches:

2021: Jason Horne-Francis - contract on hold till end of year
2020: Jamarra Ugle-Hagan - extended contract for 2 years, after 4 matches (Rd. 20, 2021)
2019: Matt Rowell - extended contract for 2 years, after 1 match (Rd. 1, 2020)
2018: Sam Walsh - extended contract for 2 years, after 4 matches (Rd. 4, 2019)
2017: Cam Rayner - extended contract for 2 years, prior to first match (Jan, 2018)

Have to go back to 2016 (McGrath) to find one that waited till the end of the year (our 2015 number one, Weitering, also waited till end of year).

Norf would be concerned for sure.

 

[jj1978]

If I'm North, I'd be looking at cashing in on JHF this trade period. I think they could score multiple 1st rounders for him. They'll most likely get the number 1 pick, and I would understand if the AFL give them an end of first round priority as well. Imagine going into the draft with 4 first rounders! And be smart and trade a few of the older blokes for a couple 2nd/3rd rounders and try to up trade those.

Yeah it might suck losing JHF, but get the feeling he wasn't going to be a kanga for life anyway and he alone isn't going to bring you back from the depths of despair.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

So the AFL should stand down the Richmond players who were out that night as well?

How many players this season have been out to pubs, clubs, restaurants etc? Good luck banning players doing something that is not illegal.

I think you need to look at each clubs covid situations…
WC have been decimated because of the policies of their government, whilst their borders were closed they had no covid and would have been going to nightclubs/pubs all throughout 2020 and 2021 when Vic/NSW clubs were stuck in quarantine hotels.

Now it’s their turn to show some restraint and all agreed not to do so yet these blokes went against the club and the rest of their teammates. If they weren’t in such dire straights with player availability they would have been suspended from playing

Just get on tinder and do a Dan Murphy’s home order and all would be fine


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Jatz]

I have a question. League has 13 on the field, 4 on the bench; how big is each team's list? Have league teams in similar situations to WC right now - in which between injury and Covid, they are sorely lacking for players to take the field - suspended players?

I suppose my question is, is the comparison an apt one?

Top squad of 30 in the NRL. Can add to that in special circumstances.

 

[jj1978]

AFL can't punish the players for doing nothing wrong within their states rules and regulations. Players have sacrificed enough the last 2 years to keep us the fans happy and the league happy.

The AFL was hoping clubs would have power to reign in players a bit more, but although can see players not being too happy with clubs imposing another year or two worth of Covid like restrictions on them. This is probably why the AFL has just told affected clubs to suck it up, if they can't control their players or choose not to, then they take the risk.

If we get 10 players wiped out, so be it, will suck but shouldn't come to that with at least rigorous club testing and some smarts on ensuring players are keeping proper hygiene and other things that can be used to help mitigate risks.

 

[thylacine60]

If I'm North, I'd be looking at cashing in on JHF this trade period. I think they could score multiple 1st rounders for him. They'll most likely get the number 1 pick, and I would understand if the AFL give them an end of first round priority as well. Imagine going into the draft with 4 first rounders! And be smart and trade a few of the older blokes for a couple 2nd/3rd rounders and try to up trade those.

Yeah it might suck losing JHF, but get the feeling he wasn't going to be a kanga for life anyway and he alone isn't going to bring you back from the depths of despair.

how do you think supporters would have reacted had we done that with kreuz, murph or gibbs, 2 years into their careers?

 

[Jatz]

AFL can't punish the players for doing nothing wrong within their states rules and regulations. Players have sacrificed enough the last 2 years to keep us the fans happy and the league happy.

The AFL was hoping clubs would have power to reign in players a bit more, but although can see players not being too happy with clubs imposing another year or two worth of Covid like restrictions on them. This is probably why the AFL has just told affected clubs to suck it up, if they can't control their players or choose not to, then they take the risk.

If we get 10 players wiped out, so be it, will suck but shouldn't come to that with at least rigorous club testing and some smarts on ensuring players are keeping proper hygiene and other things that can be used to help mitigate risks.

While that's true, they also sacrificed so that they could continue to make their inflated salaries.

 

[jj1978]

While that's true, they also sacrificed so that they could continue to make their inflated salaries.

Depends, not all players make inflated salaries. Some make the same or less than a lot others in industry of which those others don't have an average 7 years lifespan in their careers and get bruised, battered and broken doing it.

 

[jj1978]

how do you think supporters would have reacted had we done that with kreuz, murph or gibbs, 2 years into their careers?

Sometimes you have to leave supporters to support and ensure if you go down that kind of route you are sure you're going for the best outcome. Hindsight is tough but you may give supporters 2 players to cheer for who might end up better anyway who might not be enticed to return to Adelaide down the track.

I've always considered what if we traded pick one for Judd instead of 3 and kept Kennedy. Gibbs we got 2 great picks from eventually and whilst we got his best years it amounted to nothing anyway in terms of success for us.

You never know... hindsight and foresight is a tough thing.

 

[Jatz]

Depends, not all players make inflated salaries. Some make the same or less than a lot others in industry of which those others don't have an average 7 years lifespan in their careers and get bruised, battered and broken doing it.

Oh no doubt but it wasn't the players making the sacrifices out of the goodness of their hearts or because they cared what the fans were thinking etc.

I'm not suggesting it's wrong (I'd obviously not work for free either) but I think it's fanciful to suggest they were sacrificing for the good of the league.

 

[blueboy25]

I think you need to look at each clubs covid situations…
WC have been decimated because of the policies of their government, whilst their borders were closed they had no covid and would have been going to nightclubs/pubs all throughout 2020 and 2021 when Vic/NSW clubs were stuck in quarantine hotels.

Now it’s their turn to show some restraint and all agreed not to do so yet these blokes went against the club and the rest of their teammates. If they weren’t in such dire straights with player availability they would have been suspended from playing

Just get on tinder and do a Dan Murphy’s home order and all would be fine


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Josh Kennedy came out this morning and said there was no directive from the club or agreement to not go out.

You have to remember the Eagles and Dockers were in the hubs with all the other teams and even when they were at home they had the same restrictions as the other teams during the season.

Remember when the Vic teams couldn't train as a whole group at one stage. The WA teams were forced to do the same so as to not get a unfair advantage even though they were living in a covid free state at the time.

 

[thylacine60]

Sometimes you have to leave supporters to support and ensure if you go down that kind of route you are sure you're going for the best outcome. Hindsight is tough but you may give supporters 2 players to cheer for who might end up better anyway who might not be enticed to return to Adelaide down the track.

I've always considered what if we traded pick one for Judd instead of 3 and kept Kennedy. Gibbs we got 2 great picks from eventually and whilst we got his best years it amounted to nothing anyway in terms of success for us.

You never know... hindsight and foresight is a tough thing.

Supporters also need hope.

 

[jj1978]

Supporters also need hope.

True, but that hope can't ride on the shoulders of a single 19 year old kid from Adelaide. Him not agreeing to an extension also wouldn't be making their hearts swell either, doesn't feel like a typical number one pick who comes out after round 6-7 and says he loves the club, see's what they're building and is committed to the cause by signing on the dotted line if only at least for an extra year.

 

[katmanblue]

I really don't know.

When you're down like they are, losing like they are, you're going to have half the playing list struggling mentally. They're doing what AFL players do, but it's hard to be passionate or professional when you're losing every week and not by small margins too. Perth is an Eagles town, too; they can't really escape from footy at all. If I were the Eagles, I'd have made a contract with a pub and made that exclusively where our players could go for a quiet drink. You kind of have to loosen the reins when your team is like this. Maintain standards sure, but if you try to force compliance you're going to have a wholesale rejection of everything you stand for. Your players will reject you, your assistants will go around you or speak to the players behind your back, and you'll be out on your arse as soon as the club gets sick of the losses.

You need to acknowledge the hurt, acknowledge the stress and the pressure, and you need to release it without letting them go too far. Put humans under enough pressure and they'll break; let them go too far and discipline gets lost. It's a fine line, but a necessary one for a coach already unpopular with the fans and under pressure himself.

He had to do something because they got caught, but were I Simpson I'd be making it look like the club made that choice and while he agrees that the players shouldn't have gone out, he understands. Be a mentor, tell them that they're allowed to be human and to make mistakes, and give them a way back in.

They gave Ryan an $1800 fine for drink driving. Which the worse offence?

 

[thylacine60]

True, but that hope can't ride on the shoulders of a single 19 year old kid from Adelaide. Him not agreeing to an extension also wouldn't be making their hearts swell either, doesn't feel like a typical number one pick who comes out after round 6-7 and says he loves the club, see's what they're building and is committed to the cause by signing on the dotted line if only at least for an extra year.

You could easily have said the same of our brace of number ones. You only get first pick in the draft if you are truly in dire straits - or cheat (*). It is one of the few tangible benefits of bottoming out and considered a core part of the upcoming rebuild. Trading out the perceived best player in the land is nigh on impossible anyway due to the negative effects on your own club and the small chance any other club can stump up the picks or players to make it worthwhile.

 

[goreds]

So the AFL should stand down the Richmond players who were out that night as well?

How many players this season have been out to pubs, clubs, restaurants etc? Good luck banning players doing something that is not illegal.

Missed the point.

If the club has put in place specific rules, then they should also be allowed to implement specific punishments...

If you want to go out tonight boys, no worries. Tell us now so we can remove you from selection for the next 2 weeks and give you the fine of 10K now. Thanks, have a great night...

 

[katmanblue]

Missed the point.

If the club has put in place specific rules, then they should also be allowed to implement specific punishments...

If you want to go out tonight boys, no worries. Tell us now so we can remove you from selection for the next 2 weeks and give you the fine of 10K now. Thanks, have a great night...

According to Kennedy, they didn't. There were no specific rules.

 

[goreds]

According to Kennedy, they didn't. There were no specific rules.

Fair enough...

Why fine them then?

Why scream from the mountain tops?

 

[Gethelred]

Fair enough...

Why fine them then?

Why scream from the mountain tops?

Fans.

WC fans are - arguably - the worst fans in the comp for turning on a player or players, largely because Perth is a two team town and they're the more prominent side. They need to be seen to do something, or the entire establishment will be roundly criticised, and realistically the criticism will have merit.

It's what I mean when I say that this was a damned if you do and if you don't situation. They're genuinely on the edge of losing their entire list as a coaching group; losing every week, players in and out between injury, covid and supplementary listed players, senior players coming to the end who have a premiership under their belt and think they know best. You've the perfect recipe for the tail wagging the dog, but the stress within the group is understandable. You can't be a hardarse without risking losing the group.

Now, you could absolutely say, "Look, we need a rebuild anyway, why not put a line through a few right now and be a hardarse about it?" You do this, though, and you risk a few of the players you want to retain seeking a trade because you cut one to five of their mates. Being the hardarse puts people offside, and doing it at the bottom of the ladder means you're going to lose players. This is ostensibly what happened in Brisbane with the Go Home 5, and how GC lost O'Meara, Prestia, Lynch etc when Eade was up there.

You need to be able to build something. What you do in list management can be as hard as you like, but in your interactions you need to be able to keep the door open to the entire list, and you need to leave for the player the option to make amends.