GWS is the AFL's biggest problem - not North, GC, or Tassie

[RedV3x]

Swans got nothing like the support GWS have received from the V/AFL

I don't know why people bother to make comparisons.

A VFL side in South Melbourne came to Sydney. The Swans still have considerable support in Melbourne (and other places).
Research showed that there was potential support from 250.000 people and that this support was exactly were it is today.
Sydney AFL was strongest where that support was strongest.
It is to be noted that whilst the Swans were the only team to play on Sundays (the reason for their widespread support)
they contributed to the support of the VFL (NOT the other way around) because they received only one team share of the media income.

GWS were planned for the very opposite reasons to establish an AFL side where there was little support and grow that support from scratch.
When you recognise that fact and the fact some Melbourne clubs do very poorly w.r.t interstate games then I think GWS are doing fine.
GWS could have been travelling much better but that is the nature of football business.

 

[madmug]

I don't know why people bother to make comparisons.

A VFL side in South Melbourne came to Sydney. The Swans still have considerable support in Melbourne (and other places).
Research showed that there was potential support from 250.000 people and that this support was exactly were it is today.
Sydney AFL was strongest where that support was strongest.
It is to be noted that whilst the Swans were the only team to play on Sundays (the reason for their widespread support)
they contributed to the support of the VFL (NOT the other way around) because they received only one team share of the media income.

GWS were planned for the very opposite reasons to establish an AFL side where there was little support and grow that support from scratch.
When you recognise that fact and the fact some Melbourne clubs do very poorly w.r.t interstate games then I think GWS are doing fine.
GWS could have been travelling much better but that is the nature of football business.

People always make comparisons. Especially 2 teams in one city, established 30 years apart.

How could GWS be 'travelling better' in your opinion?

 

[speedpeck23]

People always make comparisons. Especially 2 teams in one city, established 30 years apart.

How could GWS be 'travelling better' in your opinion?

Agree people will always make these comparisons between the Swans and the Giants. You've just nailed the very reason for GWS existence in one go.....it gives the Swans a direct rival......in effect the Swans get even more publicity simply because the Giants exist. We all know GWS is struggling and they don't have a great supporter base and they play in Western Sydney/Canberra and we know that their colors are orange and grey and their hopeless compared to the Swans, but we and many people in NSW and Australia DO know about them ......when they do finally get sustained success you'll get the bandwagon effect and they will become more relevant.

 

[madmug]

Agree people will always make these comparisons between the Swans and the Giants. You've just nailed the very reason for GWS existence in one go.....it gives the Swans a direct rival......in effect the Swans get even more publicity simply because the Giants exist. We all know GWS is struggling and they don't have a great supporter base and they play in Western Sydney/Canberra and we know that their colors are orange and grey and their hopeless compared to the Swans, but we and many people in NSW and Australia DO know about them ......when they do finally get sustained success you'll get the bandwagon effect and they will become more relevant.

Swans didn't 'need' GWS as a rival. Every Victorian team that comes up is a rival, NSW v Vic. What more motivation does one want.? Arguably the Swans main rival in Sydney is the NRL!!!

'When' GWS do get sustained success is not guaranteed. Off field & supporters is the issue. The AFL can pump draft picks until they're blue in the face, its the Generational change which is the objective.

Its the difficult bit.

 

[madmug]

Yes, more Australians behold Australian Football.



It's about being surrounded by the incumbent sports and seeking out the best available options.



Sport has it's historical element.
Rugby was originally the English game of choice but Australians rejected it, The Irish banned it, Americans and Canadians modified it, the English preferred soccer and even rugby split in two.
Soccer took over a lot of the world because of it's simplicity and low cost (also rugby liked being aloof).
That's a bit of history. You may say that some "culture" has grown out of that history but technology is the new facilitator.
Technology is in part overcoming the historical restraints of distance.



Like you have been doing for example.



To varying degrees. So some sport has to be at the top of the heap.
And while it is skillful I see no attraction in synchronised swimming, rhythmic gymnastics and professional soccer.

'More Australians behold Australian football'. Yes, but not by a large margin. Indeed Rugby League overall is more popular. Its played not only in Oz, its got a sizeable following in England & in France. RU is far more popular as it is a big international sport.

You say 'Soccer took over the world due to simplicity & low cost', well no. It initially went 'abroad' with the British empire. Then other European nations took it up, as well as most of their own colonies.

Interesting how places like the USA, Canada, India, NZ & Australia were different. USA hated the British after the War of independence & later clashes so invented its own sports, (Soccer is now gaining traction), India preferred Cricket & Hockey, NZ went right into RU, Australia split between its own game & RU & RL. Colonial jealousy stopped AR taking over in NSW & Qld. Soccer has always struggled here at the professional level. That's got a lot to do with the best players going overseas to make a career out of it.

Is that too much of a gob full for you?

 

[RedV3x]

'More Australians behold Australian football'.

Yes, and by a large margin.

RU is far more popular as it is a big international sport.

And far more people play American Football and than English rugby. So WTF.

You say 'Soccer took over the world due to simplicity & low cost', well no. It initially went 'abroad' with the British empire.

No. The preferred game was rugby and soccer had to overcome that bias.

Interesting how places like the USA, Canada, India, NZ & Australia were different.

Mostly based on climate.

Is that too much of a gob full for you?

Quite meaningless because of all the inaccuracies. Feel free to waste your time.

 

[RedV3x]

You've just nailed the very reason for GWS existence in one go.....it gives the Swans a direct rival.

Not the only reason, but the existence of playing an AFL game in Sydney every week has strong and obvious benefits.
It's an exact counter reason for pushing hard for a third Perth team it doesn't add much to the pot.

 

[Walshawk]

So you're saying on-field success and quite peaky at that.
I'd say the Swans were more successful generally and consistently.

Not in the first 11 years, which is what we were taking about.

 

[RedV3x]

Not in the first 11 years, which is what we were taking about.

I'd say the Swans were more successful generally and consistent in the first 11 years.
GWS had dreadful start and the Swans always had a decent crowd at the SCG.

 

[madmug]

Yes, and by a large margin.


And far more people play American Football and than English rugby. So WTF.


No. The preferred game was rugby and soccer had to overcome that bias.



Mostly based on climate.



Quite meaningless because of all the inaccuracies. Feel free to waste your time.

Maybe feel free to read some history & some facts.

 

[RedV3x]

Maybe feel free to read some history & some facts.

I've read extensively on the "facts".
The facts are that the British establishment preferred rugby over other football.
This didn't go very well Australia invented their own football and the U.S.A. and Canada evolved their own football codes.
The biggest country where RU dominates is New Zealand.
This lack of popularity for rugby left the door open for soccer to appeal to the masses.

If the British hadn't reneged on their promise to have a return test against the Lions in England
then colonial football could be in a much more prominent position world-wise position than it is today.

 

[Walshawk]

I'd say the Swans were more successful generally and consistent in the first 11 years.
GWS had dreadful start and the Swans always had a decent crowd at the SCG.

Well you would be wrong. Swans aside from 86 m/87 the Swans did not play finals and we just as bad in the early 90s as GWS’s first few seasons.

 

[RedV3x]

Well you would be wrong. Swans aside from 86 m/87 the Swans did not play finals and we just as bad in the early 90s as GWS’s first few seasons.

The highest average home attendance for GWS is 13,196.
The Swans for the most part had decent crowds with some 16k,22k and 25k season averages.
After the disaster of the early 90s the Swans averages shot up basically into the 30ks.
As for performance it wasn't until 1991 that the Swans found themselves as low as 13th ladder position.
GWS started with four of the worst years possible.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Unrealistic to expect that it can follow the exact same proportionate increase as the swans have experienced, basically a four-fold increase in 7 years, but can the club regularly get around 13k to 14k in the future - the answer is a resounding yes.

Resounding yes? I’m not sure how you could have that type of confidence considering the lack of support over the first decade

 

[LoungeLizard]

Think to yourselves if Melbourne stated up another rugby team to rival the Storm, how long do you think it would take for them to get supporters.

This is what the Giants face, it is going to take a long time, and by the sounds of it, the AFL are prepared to wait.

 

[Seedsfan]

'More Australians behold Australian football'. Yes, but not by a large margin. Indeed Rugby League overall is more popular. Its played not only in Oz, its got a sizeable following in England & in France. RU is far more popular as it is a big international sport.

You say 'Soccer took over the world due to simplicity & low cost', well no. It initially went 'abroad' with the British empire. Then other European nations took it up, as well as most of their own colonies.

Interesting how places like the USA, Canada, India, NZ & Australia were different. USA hated the British after the War of independence & later clashes so invented its own sports, (Soccer is now gaining traction), India preferred Cricket & Hockey, NZ went right into RU, Australia split between its own game & RU & RL. Colonial jealousy stopped AR taking over in NSW & Qld. Soccer has always struggled here at the professional level. That's got a lot to do with the best players going overseas to make a career out of it.

Is that too much of a gob full for you?

Not really the US never invented their own game they just modified the rules of a very British game in Rugby.

Also colonial jealousy had nothing to do with NSW and Queensland playing rugby. It was well established there before the advent of Aussie rules down south. While Aussie rules in the early days made in roads in NSW Qld and NZ the arrival of league changed that as now all the power rugby clubs could pay the best players to play their game.

 

[Seedsfan]

Think to yourselves if Melbourne stated up another rugby team to rival the Storm, how long do you think it would take for them to get supporters.

This is what the Giants face, it is going to take a long time, and by the sounds of it, the AFL are prepared to wait.

To be fair there are from a quick count 85 Aussie rules clubs in NSW not including those playing in vic leagues as opposed to 34 RL clubs in Vic

 

[LoungeLizard]

To be fair there are from a quick count 85 Aussie rules clubs in NSW not including those playing in vic leagues as opposed to 34 RL clubs in Vic

The point being, Sydney have been there a while and have already soaked up anyone wanting to follow AFL.

GWS have to start from scratch.

 

[RedV3x]

Resounding yes? I’m not sure how you could have that type of confidence considering the lack of support over the first decade

"but can the club regularly get around 13k to 14k in the future - the answer is a resounding yes."

"Can" as in "possible" then that would be obvious since they've already achieved that.

 

[Gigantor]

Resounding yes? I’m not sure how you could have that type of confidence considering the lack of support over the first decade

The cut-through from an absolute zero base is actually pretty good after a decade.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

The cut-through from an absolute zero base is actually pretty good after a decade.

Extremely slow growth at that rate averaging 12-14 k is not viable long term you need to at least be pushing 18-20 k within the next decade

 

[Tasmanian saint]

The cut-through from an absolute zero base is actually pretty good after a decade.

Con

The cut-through from an absolute zero base is actually pretty good after a decade.

When compared to the suns crowds who in that time have really struggled on field it shows how far back gws really are

 

[RedV3x]

Extremely slow growth at that rate averaging 12-14 k is not viable long term you need to at least be pushing 18-20 k within the next decade

Well take note, Tasmanian, because onfield success applies to ALL clubs.
It took GWS 7 years for a 30% increase in attendances.
It took Fremantle Dockers 9 years to accomplish the same rate of increase.
Yes, Fremantle started off of a higher base but it started in an AFL area based on strong A.F. history.
If the AFL clubs treat a Tasmanian club like they did GWS then the Tasmanian club will struggle.

 

[RedV3x]

When compared to the suns crowds who in that time have really struggled on field it shows how far back gws really are

The Suns were partly based on an expat diaspora.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Well take note, Tasmanian, because onfield success applies to ALL clubs.
It took GWS 7 years for a 30% increase in attendances.
It took Fremantle Dockers 9 years to accomplish the same rate of increase.
Yes, Fremantle started off of a higher base but it started in an AFL area based on strong A.F. history.
If the AFL clubs treat a Tasmanian club like they did GWS then the Tasmanian club will struggle.

I’m more then confident with stadium expansion we could double gws crowds from season 1