Have we got the us military wrong?

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Sweet Jesus

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I really don’t think it’s a very big stretch from what we know Trump was up to (persuading Georgian officials to “find” votes, wining and dining Michigan electors, listening to Powell/Giuliani double act etc).

Why is it so unbelievable to you that you are totally certain that Trump never entertained the idea of using the military?
Don't try to shift the burden of evidence away from those making the claim.

If you think Trump sought to implement a military coup, then make the case based on the evidence. You can't just speculate and say maybe he did and then claim the onus is on everyone else to demonstrate he didn't. That's a tiresome logical fallacy.

Why are unicorns so unbelievable to you? Can you prove they don't exist?
 

Blue1980

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Don't try to shift the burden of evidence away from those making the claim.

If you think Trump sought to implement a military coup, then make the case based on the evidence. You can't just speculate and say maybe he did and then claim the onus is on everyone else to demonstrate he didn't. That's a tiresome logical fallacy.

Why are unicorns so unbelievable to you? Can you prove they don't exist?
I told you I had no categoric proof, I never claimed I did. No one has any proof of it, there is what we know about what happened between November and January with Trump and what we don’t know.

Are you suggesting you need complete proof of something in order to have an opinion of anything?

I told you why I think what I think, you don’t agree, fine. You think I’m being a far fetched conspiracy theorist, good for you.
 

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Sweet Jesus

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I told you I had no categoric proof, I never claimed I did. No one has any proof of it, there is what we know about what happened between November and January with Trump and what we don’t know.

Are you suggesting you need complete proof of something in order to have an opinion of anything?
So what are we discussing? Something that didn't happen?
 

Blue1980

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So what are we discussing? Something that didn't happen?
In my opinion I think Trump put the feelers out to see if the military would do anything, and didn’t get anywhere.

I think the knowledge of that led to the joint statement by all living ex defence secretaries.

There was the Mark Milley statement when Trump was refusing to concede in November:


Add to that the appointment of three Trump loyalists in senior positions at the Pentagon not long before that statement.

Then you had Flynn and my pillow guy in Trumps ear advocating martial law, plus the fact Trump was pretty much only listening to people who were telling him he could steal the election.

So I’ve said what I think happened and why, added a bit more background for you (which I thought was common knowledge to you and others). You don’t agree, fine. Not sure why you are being such a dick about it.
 

Sweet Jesus

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In my opinion I think Trump put the feelers out to see if the military would do anything, and didn’t get anywhere.
But that's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. It either happened or it didn't.

And if you're going to say it happened, then presumably you can substantiate that with real evidence.

I think the knowledge of that led to the joint statement by all living ex defence secretaries.

There was the Mark Milley statement when Trump was refusing to concede in November:


Add to that the appointment of three Trump loyalists in senior positions at the Pentagon not long before that statement.

Then you had Flynn and my pillow guy in Trumps ear advocating martial law, plus the fact Trump was pretty much only listening to people who were telling him he could steal the election.

So I’ve said what I think happened and why, added a bit more background for you (which I thought was common knowledge to you and others). You don’t agree, fine. Not sure why you are being such a dick about it.
So you think Trump did in fact seek to implement a military coup or you don't?
 

Blue1980

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But that's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. It either happened or it didn't.

And if you're going to say it happened, then presumably you can substantiate that with real evidence.

So you think Trump did in fact seek to implement a military coup or you don't?
What is wrong with you? I said it’s my opinion and you are banging on about it not being fact.

I’ve said over and over and over, Trump and his minions would of put the feelers out to the military to see if they had support to help him out. If there was enough support, military coup would of been attempted, but there was not.

So no coup was attempted as it never got that far.

So yes if he felt he had military support, he would of attempted a military coup.

I can guess your response already….
 

Sweet Jesus

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What is wrong with you? I said it’s my opinion and you are banging on about it not being fact.
Because it's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact.

You can't just say "in my opinion" when you're talking about something that either did or didn't happen.

It's like Trump wingnuts who say "in my opinion" there was election fraud without being able to substaniate it.

I’ve said over and over and over, Trump and his minions would of put the feelers out to the military to see if they had support to help him out. If there was enough support, military coup would of been attempted, but there was not.

So no coup was attempted as it never got that far.

So yes if he felt he had military support, he would of attempted a military coup.

I can guess your response already….
So he didn't seek to implement a military coup? Or he did?

Or now we're talking about a hypothetical military coup?
 

Blue1980

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Because it's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact.

You can't just say "in my opinion" when you're talking about something that either did or didn't happen.

It's like Trump wingnuts who say "in my opinion" there was election fraud without being able to substaniate it.

So he didn't seek to implement a military coup? Or he did?

Or now we're talking about a hypothetical military coup?
No he didn’t as it never got to that point of discussion. (In my opinion) So no he did not organise one. (Didn’t I say this at the beginning of the thread?)

I’m not sure why this is your big crusade, it’s totally bizarre. You could of just said “no I don’t agree with you” like a normal person.
 

Sweet Jesus

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No he didn’t as it never got to that point of discussion.
OK then.

I’m not sure why this is your big crusade, it’s totally bizarre. You could of just said “no I don’t agree with you” like a normal person.
It's not a matter of agree/disagree. It's a matter of evidence for specific claims.
 

Blue1980

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OK then.

It's not a matter of agree/disagree. It's a matter of evidence for specific claims.
I gave you my circumstantial evidence, obviously if there was something concrete he’d be in a lot of hot water obviously. Again I thought that was assumed.

I don’t see how it’s remotely similar to election fraud claims. Every single claim was debunked with facts.

Hey I could be wrong totally, maybe the whole Trump tanty after November really was just all pantomime and no real serious threat to democracy.
 

Sweet Jesus

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I gave you my circumstantial evidence, obviously if there was something concrete he’d be in a lot of hot water obviously. Again I thought that was assumed.

I don’t see how it’s remotely similar to election fraud claims. Every single claim was debunked with facts.
The point is that whether something happened or didn't happen isn't a matter of opinion.

The folks who allege election fraud also present "circumstantial evidence" and then it just becomes a story they've told themselves. And they claim it makes sense.

Hey I could be wrong totally, maybe the whole Trump tanty after November really was just all pantomime and no real serious threat to democracy.
I didn't say that. I questioned the unsubstantiated claim that he sought to enact a military coup.

Clearly Trump sought to interfere with results, thereby undermining democracy. I wouldn't dispute that. But that's not the same as seeking to enact a military coup.
 

Blue1980

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The point is that whether something happened or didn't happen isn't a matter of opinion.

I didn't say that. I questioned the unsubstantiated claim that he sought to enact a military coup.
Again if he’d organised one we’d have known about it.

My guess is he (and/or his inner circle) tried to see how much support there was in the military for him via his loyalists, and it amounted to not enough to help him do any shady sh*t.

With everything else we know about that is common knowledge of what happened after November 3 up to at least Jan 6, I think that’s hardly a stretch.
 

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Sweet Jesus

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Again if he’d organised one we’d have known about it.
So it's just a fun story.

My guess is he (and/or his inner circle) tried to see how much support there was in the military for him via his loyalists, and it amounted to not enough to help him do any shady sh*t.

With everything else we know about that is common knowledge of what happened after November 3 up to at least Jan 6, I think that’s hardly a stretch.
Your guess.
 

Blue1980

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So it's just a fun story.

Your guess.
So your whole issue is something I said was my opinion, is my opinion.

Are you saying no one on the forum can discuss anything unless there is categoric proof?

I guess Trumps tax fraud is just a conspiracy as we don’t have any proof at this current time.
 

JackFlash

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Never mind the Trump derangement, the US Military is still the most powerful in the world and very capable of wiping out the eastern seaboard of China (400 million). Of course we will go along with the carnage and be wiped out ourselves, we will probably be the first place targeted! The only hope is "Crazy Joe" has forgotten the Nuclear codes?
 

Blue1980

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Never mind the Trump derangement, the US Military is still the most powerful in the world and very capable of wiping out the eastern seaboard of China (400 million). Of course we will go along with the carnage and be wiped out ourselves, we will probably be the first place targeted! The only hope is "Crazy Joe" has forgotten the Nuclear codes?
You can use this post when we are targeted by nukes to claim how right you are.

So is Biden easy on China or going to nuke them?
 

JackFlash

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You can use this post when we are targeted by nukes to claim how right you are.

So is Biden easy on China or going to nuke them?
I don't want to be right, but Australia has its head buried in the sand...this is a vastly different world live in now. We're not that important. Joe doesn't know what day it is let alone knows where Australia is!
 

Seeds

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But that's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. It either happened or it didn't.

And if you're going to say it happened, then presumably you can substantiate that with real evidence.

So you think Trump did in fact seek to implement a military coup or you don't?
I don’t know that pigs dont fly around the moon.

we use Bayesian logic when we lack evidence one way or another.

if trump was a rational being everything points to him atleast putting feelers out with the military. The trump firings in the defence force and pentagon. The fact trump tried to initiate a political coup. The fact Trrump was gearing up his supports with fighting words. Only an idiot wouldn’t also try to test the military given they had done that. Trump is however an idiot. It’s his greatest defence.
 

Sweet Jesus

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I don’t know that pigs dont fly around the moon.
That's why you'd ask for evidence if someone claimed they did. And it would be inadequate for them to respond by demanding you prove they don't.

we use Bayesian logic when we lack evidence one way or another.
We ask people making claims to substantiate those claims.

Stop blethering about Bayesian logic.

if trump was a rational being everything points to him atleast putting feelers out with the military. The trump firings in the defence force and pentagon. The fact trump tried to initiate a political coup. The fact Trrump was gearing up his supports with fighting words. Only an idiot wouldn’t also try to test the military given they had done that. Trump is however an idiot. It’s his greatest defence.
So did Trump seek to enact a military coup or didn't he?

What does Bayesian logic indicate?
 
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Seeds

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That's why you'd ask for evidence if someone claimed they did. And it would be inadequate for them to respond by demanding you prove they don't.

We ask people making claims to substantiate those claims.

Stop blethering about Bayesian logic.

So did Trump seek to enact a military coup or didn't he?

What does Bayesian logic indicate?
innocent unless proven otherwise is the approach we use for trials. It’s not the approach we use to guess outcomes of any other uncertain events. Bayesian thinking is how we do that. Stop banging on about substantiating claims. You can’t substantiate he did not initiate a military coup. The other poster can’t substantiate that he did. In this circumstance it’s Bayesian thinking that we use to base our belief around what most likely happened.
 

Sweet Jesus

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innocent unless proven otherwise is the approach we use for trials. It’s not the approach we use to guess outcomes of any other uncertain events.
Since when? If you're making a claim, the onus is on you to substantiate that claim.

Who's we in the above sentence? If you need a work-around because you can't support your own statements, that's your issue, not mine. It's telling that you describe your approach as "guessing". My approach is to ask for evidence.

For example, you might be willing to "guess" that Trump sought to enact a military coup. I ask for the evidence.

Bayesian thinking is how we do that.
Is this what you say when you can't support your statements?

Stop banging on about substantiating claims. You can’t substantiate he did not initiate a military coup.
The onus is on the person making the claim to substantiate that claim. This is basic stuff.

Otherwise, I might as well say unicorns are real and then challenge you to prove they're not. Is that how it works?

The other poster can’t substantiate that he did.
So the claim remains unsubstantiated. In that case, we should disregard it.

In this circumstance it’s Bayesian thinking that we use to base our belief around what most likely happened.
It's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of fact. It either happened or it didn't. And if you're going to make a claim about something that supposedly happened, then the onus is on you to substantiate that claim. You can't.

So I ask you again, did Trump seek to enact a military coup or didn't he?

But... but... but Bayesian thinking!

That's not an answer. It's your latest lame attempt to sound smarter than you are. It's not working.
 
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