Hawthorn - 20 flags by 2050

Who's closer to a flag, Geelong or Hawthorn?

  • Hawthorn

    Votes: 141 56.4%
  • Geelong

    Votes: 109 43.6%

  • Total voters
    250

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blaisee

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 11, 2004
6,895
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This is just a matter of different sources - you've quoted Caroline Wilson and I've quoted the actual financial reports released by the clubs, summarised here: http://www.footyindustry.com/?page_id=4121.

What do you think is more reliable - audited financial summaries released by the clubs or a journalist?



Sigh, same article again. Yes, the AFL have employed the Hawthorn president and Carlton president to investigate whether a reliance on gaming may be able to be reduced (and later explains the AFL successfully campaigned the Govt to have unrestricted gambling access). If you seriously think this means it is inevitable all pokies will be banned for clubs you are delusional. 'Possible' is a much better descriptor than inevitable as the AFL (and two club presidents who do very well out of it) are not likely to eradicate it altogether - they need to be seen to be addressing an issue of public concern and will likely result in a 'cap' or additional support back to the community (as already happens). Regardless, as was mentioned, Hawthorn have been top 5 without gaming for the entire last decade.



Firstly, the difference between 5th and 4th in negligible but it isn't made up - it is a longitudinal assessment. ON 2017 figures, Hawthorn is 5th for revenue without gaming. On 2016 figures, Hawthorn is 2nd. On 2015 figures, Hawthorn is 1st. They have been top 4 every other year in the last decade. A club like Richmond moved slightly ahead in 2017 following a big jump thanks to a premiership, which they will not win every year. 3rd/4th is an accurate (conservative) reflection of where they sit in terms of revenue without gaming.



Again it is you that is making stuff up. If you remove ALL sponsorship and social revenue from Hawthorn including Tasmania, iiNet, adidas and Audi, it still makes $56M in revenue. That is comfortably in the top half (if all other clubs keep all sponsors). Richmond, in 2016 (a comparable year) made $47M in revenue including everything. Leave aside the preposterous notion that Hawthorn would get no sponsors whatsoever (Tassie and adidas both on long term deals), Hawthorn without sponsorship money is still ahead of Richmond every year of the last decade bar 2017 (which is still quite close). How embarrassing.
Looks like I am flogging a dead horse here it seems.

You are that insecure ( and understandably so ) that simple logic and powers of deduction are beyond your capabilities

and not sure why you keep referencing Richmond?

Richmond have survived 40 years of being the worst club in Australia without relocating to Tasmania, and without a massive Waverly Park handout, and without completely prostituting themselves to gaming revenue like the family club. Hawthorn did all this, actually had to do all these things even though they won premierships. What do you think will happen if you miss finals for even 3 years in a row?

Yet Richmond, still, even though they were a basket case on the field, because of their MASSIVE fan support we still had 75,000 members and break records every week and every year with regards to crowd numbers, and we are now clearly not only the biggest AFL club in the league, but the biggest sporting organisation in the country. Period .

http://www.afr.com/business/sport/h...-biggest-afl-club-in-victoria-20170824-gy3ekm


Stop embarrassing yourself mate, it is quite sad to watch you dig this massive hole and not be able top get out.
 

Hawkk

Hall of Famer
Sep 17, 2004
39,610
13,075
Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn

This is just a matter of different sources - you've quoted Caroline Wilson and I've quoted the actual financial reports released by the clubs, summarised here: http://www.footyindustry.com/?page_id=4121.

What do you think is more reliable - audited financial summaries released by the clubs or a journalist?



Sigh, same article again. Yes, the AFL have employed the Hawthorn president and Carlton president to investigate whether a reliance on gaming may be able to be reduced (and later explains the AFL successfully campaigned the Govt to have unrestricted gambling access). If you seriously think this means it is inevitable all pokies will be banned for clubs you are delusional. 'Possible' is a much better descriptor than inevitable as the AFL (and two club presidents who do very well out of it) are not likely to eradicate it altogether - they need to be seen to be addressing an issue of public concern and will likely result in a 'cap' or additional support back to the community (as already happens). Regardless, as was mentioned, Hawthorn have been top 5 without gaming for the entire last decade.



Firstly, the difference between 5th and 4th in negligible but it isn't made up - it is a longitudinal assessment. ON 2017 figures, Hawthorn is 5th for revenue without gaming. On 2016 figures, Hawthorn is 2nd. On 2015 figures, Hawthorn is 1st. They have been top 4 every other year in the last decade. A club like Richmond moved slightly ahead in 2017 following a big jump thanks to a premiership, which they will not win every year. 3rd/4th is an accurate (conservative) reflection of where they sit in terms of revenue without gaming.



Again it is you that is making stuff up. If you remove ALL sponsorship and social revenue from Hawthorn including Tasmania, iiNet, adidas and Audi, it still makes $56M in revenue. That is comfortably in the top half (if all other clubs keep all sponsors). Richmond, in 2016 (a comparable year) made $47M in revenue including everything. Leave aside the preposterous notion that Hawthorn would get no sponsors whatsoever (Tassie and adidas both on long term deals), Hawthorn without sponsorship money is still ahead of Richmond every year of the last decade bar 2017 (which is still quite close). How embarrassing.
blaisee can you please answer the following. Please and thanks.

Now that Richmond has jumped ahead of North and Port in the revenue game, perhaps the the tiggy tigers can return the government / AFL handouts that have been flying their way thick and fast over the last 20 years :)
 

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Holy Rioli

Premium Gold
Nov 24, 2012
4,132
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I really don’t get why it was apparently so important to have a freehold.

And to be clear, apparently that was Essendon’s preference as well when they moved, though not a huge priority and ended up with a leasehold. I didn’t get it then either.
I answered this question before for you, but you either didn't see it, or didn't like what you saw so you ignore it.

The main benefit with this freehold is it is an asset that is likely to appreciate significantly. Much better than lease arrangement that gets more expensive each time it is renewed/reviewed. No ongoing lease OPEX cost + capital gains in asset appreciation.

With the Essendon situation, you were bent over by a bowls club so I guess you took whatever was on offer.
 

Bunk Moreland

Hall of Famer
Sep 22, 2011
34,883
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I answered this question before for you, but you either didn't see it, or didn't like what you saw so you ignore it.

The main benefit with this freehold is it is an asset that is likely to appreciate significantly. Much better than lease arrangement that gets more expensive each time it is renewed/reviewed. No ongoing lease OPEX cost + capital gains in asset appreciation.

With the Essendon situation, you were bent over by a bowls club so I guess you took whatever was on offer.
You did, I guess I was looking for a fresh perspective from somebody who has half an idea what they're talking about. The vast allocation of limited capital toward something outside of the club's main objectives is obviously the issue.
 

Gavin Excell

Hall of Famer
Apr 22, 2007
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You did, I guess I was looking for a fresh perspective from somebody who has half an idea what they're talking about. The vast allocation of limited capital toward something outside of the club's main objectives is obviously the issue.
Main objective being winning premierships yes?

There is an argument that stability in part through being financially well set up provides a necessary platform to achieve the objective.

They are related
 

Beerfish

Moderatorer
Jan 20, 2008
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The main benefit with this freehold is it is an asset that is likely to appreciate significantly. Much better than lease arrangement that gets more expensive each time it is renewed/reviewed. No ongoing lease OPEX cost + capital gains in asset appreciation.
If it does appreciate significantly isn't there the danger that the local council/planning authority may try to move you on by charging you the rates at the amount they could get for separate blocks? This happened to one of my wife's relatives. Had lived on a semi rural acreage for 40+ years until the suburbs started to encroach. She didn't want to leave but the council said that's okay you can stay but we're going to start charging you rates as if you were the owner of x amount of blocks. She didn't have much choice but to leave (granted with several million dollars in her pocket from a developer but that's beside the point).

Also, what about land tax? That would be a bit on land that is worth a bit wouldn't it - paid annually and more than likely increasing each year? Don't need to pay that if you're leasing.

And finally your point about leases being renegotiated may be salient if we're talking residential leases that last 12 - 24 months or so but I don't think it's really relevant when you're talking a 50 year lease is it?

Apologies in advance if these questions have already been addressed. I've only been skimming the thread now and then.
 

matey

Premiership Player
Oct 5, 2004
3,099
1,976
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
lol

real estate is real estate is one of the dumbest most ignorant things I have ever read on this forum.

If you believe that commercial property is the same as residential property then you my friend are completely deluded.
Realestate is property generally consisting of land, buildings and other immovable objects. Whether it's residential or commercial both can be purchased as an investment, appreciate in value and are both treated as an asset on the balance sheet. I was not referring to differences in their classification for construction or any other purpose. Yeah can see your point and understand why some will see it as a dumb post as only the dumbest and most ignorant can't understand and keep up with the context of previous posts.
 
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matey

Premiership Player
Oct 5, 2004
3,099
1,976
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
You did, I guess I was looking for a fresh perspective from somebody who has half an idea what they're talking about. The vast allocation of limited capital toward something outside of the club's main objectives is obviously the issue.
But the main objective of winning premierships needs to be complemented by a solid P/L and B/S position. If the Hawks don't have to worry about future leasing costs/arrangements you would think that they would have additional funds that could be directed into training facilities, research into sports science and its people.

Pretty sure that Harris said in his article or on the radio (would be good if someone can confirm) that he would not have donated the $16mil to the club unless the Dingley land was purchased and owned by the Hawthorn football club.
 

Leeda

Talons B Sharp
Sep 26, 2012
6,646
1,157
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Monday says that Tuesday is going to be a better day... Just to work on that , an well Thursday is better than Friday.... :p
 

Hawkk

Hall of Famer
Sep 17, 2004
39,610
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Looks like I am flogging a dead horse here it seems.

You are that insecure ( and understandably so ) that simple logic and powers of deduction are beyond your capabilities

and not sure why you keep referencing Richmond?

Richmond have survived 40 years of being the worst club in Australia without relocating to Tasmania, and without a massive Waverly Park handout, and without completely prostituting themselves to gaming revenue like the family club. Hawthorn did all this, actually had to do all these things even though they won premierships. What do you think will happen if you miss finals for even 3 years in a row?

Yet Richmond, still, even though they were a basket case on the field, because of their MASSIVE fan support we still had 75,000 members and break records every week and every year with regards to crowd numbers, and we are now clearly not only the biggest AFL club in the league, but the biggest sporting organisation in the country. Period .

http://www.afr.com/business/sport/h...-biggest-afl-club-in-victoria-20170824-gy3ekm


Stop embarrassing yourself mate, it is quite sad to watch you dig this massive hole and not be able top get out.
That’s all dandy...

But did you not rattle your cute little tins three times inside 20 years, went to Windy Hill and played a charity fixture against Carlton and went cap in hand to the government on a number of times to get rid of those pesky possums in the Punt Road gym (according to plough, right there with recruiting JON on the back of a used VHS tape and a Big M)

As for the Fin Review article, that’s quite cute. I mean Hawthorn had those same articles in 2008/09 (when Hawthorn broke the member record) and again in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 (when they broke the record again) but whose counting.

I wonder if Richmond will do a Hawthorn and record $7.6m worth of profits over back to back years like 2007/08. Of course Hawthorn backed up those foundations by diversifying into non football related income streams, developing a hotel, recruiting Brian Lake, won another 3 flags on the trot and generated another $30m in profits.

I just hope for Richmond’s sake that their much deserved ‘life memberships’ don’t go to their heads...

I wonder what Hawthorn will do with the $16m from their benefactor?
 
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hk89

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 12, 2009
7,741
9,331
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Looks like I am flogging a dead horse here it seems.
I wondered where the oft used bigfooty term 'flog' came from. This is perhaps the most useful insight you've provided so far. Flog away.

You are that insecure ( and understandably so )
Hawthorn fans have seen their club win 9 flags in the period over which your minnow club has won 1. Modesty is our problem, not insecurity.

Richmond have survived 40 years of being the worst club in Australia without relocating to Tasmania, and without a massive Waverly Park handout, and without completely prostituting themselves to gaming revenue like the family club.
Ok, I think we can all agree on your first point. Richmond have been close to the worst club in Australia for nearly 40 years.

The "massive Waverley Park handout" you refer to had nothing to do with the VFL/AFL. They'd already sold the lot to a developer (Mirvac), the local council however needed the developer to partner with a sporting club as part of the local councils demands that the ground continue have a sporting connection. Mirvac needed Hawthorn to fulfil that part of their agreement with the council, and so Hawthorn was in the right place at the right time. This idea (like many of your ideas) that this was an AFL/VFL handout is complete bullshit. Hawthorn acquiring Waverley had nothing to do with the AFL. It is amazing how often Hawthorn has been in the right place at the right time over the last 50 years. It is almost likely it isn't even luck anymore.

As for prostituting ourselves with gaming. Have your club sold the Wantirna club yet? Are you not also prostituting yourself with gaming revenue? Is it ok for you guys because you are not the Family club?

Hawthorn have clearly not relocated to Tasmania. We train in Melbourne, and we play the majority of our home games in Melbourne. We are a Melbourne club. We play 4 home games in Tassie as part of our sponsorship agreement with the Tasmanian government. Described as the most lucrative sponsorship deal in Australian sport. Right place, right time again. But all luck I'm sure.

Hawthorn did all this, actually had to do all these things even though they won premierships. What do you think will happen if you miss finals for even 3 years in a row?
Win a flag a couple of years later I expect. At least that is what happened when we missed finals 5 years in a row from 2002-2006. Followed with finals 2007. Premiership 2008. In the year following that 5 years out of finals we recorded a record profit, and our 11th consecutive year of profits. So I'd expect after only 3 years out of finals instead of 5 we'd also be in pretty good financial shape.

Yet Richmond, still, even though they were a basket case on the field, because of their MASSIVE fan support we still had 75,000 members and break records every week and every year with regards to crowd numbers, and we are now clearly not only the biggest AFL club in the league, but the biggest sporting organisation in the country.
Except you are not. In 2017 you had less revenue than Hawthorn, less assets than Hawthorn, less profit than Hawthorn. One of the few things you had more than us was $ contributions from the AFL. If you were only behind Hawthorn, it would be less pathetic, but you're behind a bunch of AFL powerhouses.
 

Holy Rioli

Premium Gold
Nov 24, 2012
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If it does appreciate significantly isn't there the danger that the local council/planning authority may try to move you on by charging you the rates at the amount they could get for separate blocks? This happened to one of my wife's relatives. Had lived on a semi rural acreage for 40+ years until the suburbs started to encroach. She didn't want to leave but the council said that's okay you can stay but we're going to start charging you rates as if you were the owner of x amount of blocks. She didn't have much choice but to leave (granted with several million dollars in her pocket from a developer but that's beside the point).
I think Kingston city council would see Hawthorn's development of the area as a huge win and should benefit from increased general population growth and development in the area. I'm only speculating but I'd imagine Hawthorn and Kingston City Council are looking at the Dingly development as a win win partnership. Naturally a greedy politician elected 20 years from now (or even an a-hole in middle management in the building and development area) may try to pull a stunt like this, but I'd imagine this scenario to be pretty unlikely.

Also, what about land tax? That would be a bit on land that is worth a bit wouldn't it - paid annually and more than likely increasing each year? Don't need to pay that if you're leasing.
As an OPEX cost what do you think will cost more - paying a lease to an organisation who has purchased the land looking for a return on their investment (considering they are paying land tax themselves), or paying land tax?

And finally your point about leases being renegotiated may be salient if we're talking residential leases that last 12 - 24 months or so but I don't think it's really relevant when you're talking a 50 year lease is it?
I agree it would be pretty unlikely in the near term that there would be any amendment to a long term lease, but at the same time, 50 years from now when it is up for renewal, a greedy land owner may significantly increase the cost of the lease terms, something as a club we'll never have to worry about as we own the land.

In addition, keep in mind the capital gains to be potentially be made here. Hawthorn purchased 28 hectares of land - I'd be surprised if we used more than 15 as part of our development. 20 years from now if the remaining land is rezoned as residential, you could put approximately 250 homes (allowing for roads and parks) comfortably more if smaller blocks or townhouses were developed, which each block of land worth at a guess 300 to 400k (being conservative because it is ex-tip land). We are talking somewhere between $70 000 000 and $100 000 000 worth of LEFTOVER land as capital. In addition the 15 hectares that we are actually using could possibly be worth another $80 000 000 to $100 000 000. Not a bad return on investment after purchasing the land for under $8 000 000.
 

Hawkk

Hall of Famer
Sep 17, 2004
39,610
13,075
Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I wondered where the oft used bigfooty term 'flog' came from. This is perhaps the most useful insight you've provided so far. Flog away.



Hawthorn fans have seen their club win 9 flags in the period over which your minnow club has won 1. Modesty is our problem, not insecurity.



Ok, I think we can all agree on your first point. Richmond have been close to the worst club in Australia for nearly 40 years.

The "massive Waverley Park handout" you refer to had nothing to do with the VFL/AFL. They'd already sold the lot to a developer (Mirvac), the local council however needed the developer to partner with a sporting club as part of the local councils demands that the ground continue have a sporting connection. Mirvac needed Hawthorn to fulfil that part of their agreement with the council, and so Hawthorn was in the right place at the right time. This idea (like many of your ideas) that this was an AFL/VFL handout is complete bullshit. Hawthorn acquiring Waverley had nothing to do with the AFL. It is amazing how often Hawthorn has been in the right place at the right time over the last 50 years. It is almost likely it isn't even luck anymore.

As for prostituting ourselves with gaming. Have your club sold the Wantirna club yet? Are you not also prostituting yourself with gaming revenue? Is it ok for you guys because you are not the Family club?

Hawthorn have clearly not relocated to Tasmania. We train in Melbourne, and we play the majority of our home games in Melbourne. We are a Melbourne club. We play 4 home games in Tassie as part of our sponsorship agreement with the Tasmanian government. Described as the most lucrative sponsorship deal in Australian sport. Right place, right time again. But all luck I'm sure.



Win a flag a couple of years later I expect. At least that is what happened when we missed finals 5 years in a row from 2002-2006. Followed with finals 2007. Premiership 2008. In the year following that 5 years out of finals we recorded a record profit, and our 11th consecutive year of profits. So I'd expect after only 3 years out of finals instead of 5 we'd also be in pretty good financial shape.



Except you are not. In 2017 you had less revenue than Hawthorn, less assets than Hawthorn, less profit than Hawthorn. One of the few things you had more than us was $ contributions from the AFL. If you were only behind Hawthorn, it would be less pathetic, but you're behind a bunch of AFL powerhouses.
And just on this...

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...club-with-higher-purpose-20180215-p4z0hw.html

“We’re a not-for-profit business. Turnover is $66 million this year, and we’ve just won a premiership. But for the sugar hit of winning a premiership, it is tooth and nail.”

‘Sugar hits’ aside is blaisee comfortable with his CEO categorising his football club as a ‘tooth and nail’ organisation. I mean Save our Skins was a mere 7 years after 1980 so the tiggy tigers have form...
 

Randy Campbell

Club Legend
Mar 15, 2009
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And just on this...

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...club-with-higher-purpose-20180215-p4z0hw.html

“We’re a not-for-profit business. Turnover is $66 million this year, and we’ve just won a premiership. But for the sugar hit of winning a premiership, it is tooth and nail.”

‘Sugar hits’ aside is blaisee comfortable with his CEO categorising his football club as a ‘tooth and nail’ organisation. I mean Save our Skins was a mere 7 years after 1980 so the tiggy tigers have form...
Or he could just be blinded by ignorance.
 

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