Hawthorns Team of the Century

[Grendel]

If anyone doesnt know about it yet, the Club is launching a competition for people trying to guess the correct selections for the Hawthorn team of the century.

The comps at
http://www.hawthornfc.com.au/teamofthecentury/final_team.asp

entrys free and you can submit as many teams as you like.

Of course the teams going to be dominated by the Seventies/Eighties blokes, but will ANYONE at all from the clubs early days make it? Blokes like Ted Poole,Andy Angwin,Kevin Curran? I kind of doubt it.

Anyway my team was this

Parkin Langford Ayres

Knights Mew J.Kennedy Jnr

Dipper Edwards Eade

Arthur (C) Brereton Buckenara

Dunstall Hudson Platten

Scott (VC) Tuck Matthews

Peck Crimmins Law Moore

Had to give FF to Hudson, great as Jason was, Hudsons just talked about in so much awe that i went with him. No place for Crawford though i did think about it. Same with Salmon, simply wasnt there long enough.

The captaincy i left with 'Mort' Arthur. Kennedy snr always rated him with Matthews and thats good enough for me. Scotty gets the nod ahead of Lethal for the VC for his passionate nature and he seemed a more natural leader than Leigh did.

The only spot that was a real toss up for me was the other half back flank. Teddy Mew gets CHB as Knightsy could shift easily to a flank, but the other spot? Thought hard about Rubber O'Halloran, who but for the knee would have (imho) been as good as Knights was. But for service and adaptability went with Roo Kennedy instead. 240 odd games 6'4 and mobile.

Well theres mine (well the first one anyway lol) for a go.

Anyone ive overlooked?

Cheers.

 

[Glenferry]

Grendel,
just a quickie,(in a hurry)
on face value looks pretty good.
I think Terry Wallace in the centre,purely on B&F's alone.
Lethal(captain) Mort (Vice)
Gotta put Crawf in somewhere (bench perhaps?)
More thought later!!

 

[Pessimistic]

It's a great reflection ofn the Fish but He will be considered but just miss being in two seperate teams of the century - Hawthorn's and Essendons. Had he spent the entire career at either club he would be 'in' for sure !

 

[Pessimistic]

So everyone agrees on a team of the century ?

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

Gee Grendel your team is hard to argue with, id be tempted to include Terry Wallace although by all accounts Brendan Edwards was sensational. I always believed Geoff Abletts achievments at Hawthorn were downplayed as Gary's star rose. I would almost include him in front of Eade, he was quick a beautiful kick and a handy mark. What do you guys think?

 

[ptw]

sorry for butting in on your board...

the issue of Salmon is interesting (same could go for D Jarman)

Is the Hawthorn team of the century all about the best players to play for Hawthorn, or those who made the most impact over a long period of time ?

A player like Jarman (possibly the best skills seen in modern (any ?) football), may not make it to any "team of the century".

What about Coleman at Essendon...did he contribute more to Essendon than Jarman to Hawthorn ? Is getting injured OK but changing clubs not ?

I am not particularly advocating Jarman for your team (lets be honest I wouldn't know) but I think it is an interesting issue.

ptw

 

[Pessimistic]

I think Jarman would be a candidate for both teams - and a definate starter in the Adelaide one.

Salmon is an interesting one because he was a Ruckman at Hawthorn and a FF at Essendon. He would not have made the other position at either team because there were strong contenders.

Had he played one position at either club I am sure He would be in.

In some cases two teams might try to claim the same player but I'm sure there could be demarcation.

In some cases it is obvious. Hawks would take Dermie but wouldn't dream of taking Gary Ablett.

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

ptw dont know the criteria but your right hed have to be a chance, probably wasnt at his best in '91 Grand Final, but Jason Dunstall has already publicly stated hes the most skilfull footballer hes ever played with! Dont know whod he would replace though, played mostly midfield with the Hawks and the guys nominated all played in several prenierships and have been legends at the Hawks. Maybe slip him on the bench. What an impact player hed be!!!!

 

[Grendel]

The Wings were i had the biggest problems. Dip and Eade both 250 odd games with us. Both best on grounds in a GF (Dip 78 the year before the Norm Smith was introduced) Rocket (imho) in 86. Plus they were great clubmen, and long term servants. I did think hard about Geoff Ablett and agree people have forgotten his achievments in light of what his brother subsequently did (Kevin was some footballer hey, there was another one too whose name ive forgotten). Pritchard and Crawford also went close. I guess it was just a gut insitinct in the end.

Jars simply wasnt good enough on his first two seasons (he was flashy and in and out of games in 91/92) but his last sixty odd were very good. However that didnt give him enough overall impact to make a greatest ever side. Salmon while having impact from game one, couldnt get in ahead of a 300 game 2 time premiership captain and the most passionate Hawk ive ever seen pull on the jumper.

I guess looking over it we should just count our blessings that we were privileged enough to see all these great players in such a short period of time.

Lets hope that the current batch can replace a few named in these sides when they retire in ten or so years.

Carn the Mighty Hawks.

 

[Pessimistic]

I want to start a competition where we have a 'theoretical' competition between all clubs 'teams of the century'

Naturally we need a strong team in there so please, Hawk fans, Help me out.

Grendel's team is the basis for the first 18 but I need two other things.

Grendel is senior coach as his knowledge seems to be the deepest.

1. Candidates (players) for the Reserve 18

2. Candidates for the coaching/selection panel. That is all Registered Hawks fans on Bigfooty.

Bubba, Hawkforce, Dutchy Rules, Elt, Dipper

Are there any more ?

 

[ptw]

just quietly I think you also may have an issue on the full forward line (no seriously !!!)

Hudson and Dunstall were both great players, but if this side were actually to play would you really play them together ???

I can really only remember this working once, and that was the SA v Vic State of Origin, 1989 (?) dunstall and lockett at the MCG....but lockett was a stand and deliver man whereas dunstall was a leading full forward. I really don't know but wasn't Hudson also a leading forward....

I would either have a stand and deliver man, or a crumber (dare I say Jarman again ???)...


anyway....sorry for butting in again...

ptw

[This message has been edited by ptw (edited 07 February 2001).]

 

[goatmaster]

Pess I am available for the selection committee if required.
Jarman cannott possibly be even contemplated for the team of the century surely. He only had 1 outstanding season at Hawthorn (95).
Does anyone seriously rate him a better 1/2 forward than Buckenera? (imho the best finisher ever).

 

[Pessimistic]

Lets list the ones left out of Grendels Hawks

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

Originally posted by Pessimistic:
Lets list the ones left out of Grendels Hawks

Pess what doya think about Tony Halls chances for our Reserve team? I remember him distinctly in our Princes Park days constantly being our target on the wing from kick outs, very rarely let us down. How about Alan Martello and John Hendrie ? Kelvin Moore?

[This message has been edited by BUBBALOUIS (edited 08 February 2001).]

 

[elt]

Wallace, Jarman and Crawf would have to be close to a run in the twos. How about Ben Allen? He was a B&F winner (and in a premiership year) and when we lost him he was sorely missed. I am tempted to mention a certain A. Collins but I'm scared of Grendel's reaction if I do

[This message has been edited by elt (edited 08 February 2001).]

 

[thommo16]

Hey people I'm in for the selection Commitee!!!! As u can see by my nick, I am a Hawks supporter as well

I don't know if anyone has mentioned him but how about Jamie Morrissey????

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

Originally posted by thommo16:
Hey people I'm in for the selection Commitee!!!! As u can see by my nick, I am a Hawks supporter as well

I don't know if anyone has mentioned him but how about Jamie Morrissey????

Welcome aboard Thommo, the freak was sensational, unfortunately the administration at the time of his retirement treated him very shabbily. He is a mate of one of the guys i go to the footy with and i remember him coming along with us watching his beloved Hawks from the outer not feeling like he was part of the club once he was delisted. Didnt quite qualify for life membership of the club but it was sad to see a great clubman feeling shunned at the time. Good news is things have changed dramatically since Ian Dicker came on board and all the old champs are now treated in the manner they deserve. Cheers

 

[goatmaster]

O.K Pess candidates for the seconds/ back up
Been studying the history & have come up with the folowing
Defenders:Collins (Grendel I can't believe you didn't pick him!!), O'Halloran, Ian Bremner, Bert Hyde played 14 years early on playedfor Vic as full back & full forward
G. Cooper , Roy Simmonds
Midfielders: Pritchard, Colin Youren (star wingman of the 60's ), Stan Spinks from the 30's, Fisher,Austen (first Brownlow) Terry Wallace, Bert Mills (11 state games in the 30's, Ted Poole, Schwabby, Crawf, Russell Greene,
Forwards: Garry Young , Kevin Curran,Hendrie,
John Peck, Moncrieff, Wally Culpitt, Bob Keddie, Tony Hall , Jarman
Rucks: Kennedy, John Winnecke(50 games only but was picked in a team of the period 61-83), Salmon.
Coach has to be Kennedy surely (Judge a close second - not)ahead of Jeans.
Brian Coleman should be chairman of selectors for his years of loyalty.
Jack Hale (1st finals coach)

 

[RogerC]

You can say what you like about Judge, but he fulfilled an important role at a crucial stage of Hawthorn's history. In the mid nineties, we had a lot of deadwood running around in the seniors - the likes of Jencke and Condon, good players past their prime, who commanded a spot from respect, mainly. It was Judge who came along and demanded they be replaced by younger prospects. He got up a lot of noses and more than one of the Hawthorn hierarchy were glad to see the back of him, but he was right. Without his Freo connections and eye for talent we may never have seen the likes of Chick and Hay at the club. That's why we saw Hawthorn with one of the youngest lists in the AFL. It's also why we had Crawford as a leader, instead of feeling the need to import a ready made like Ben Allan.

Sure, he didn't get the results, but he laid the groundwork for our current optimism and future success. Schwab inherited a cohesive, able, hungry, and above all disciplined team at the right stage of their development to be cut loose from Judge's relentless defensiveness.

Incidentally, Judge also demonstrated the effectiveness of recruiting raw prospects such as Hay and Chick and Brett Johnson, etc, rather than chasing stars (Jarman, Tony Hall, Ben Allan, Rick Davies, need I go on..) who are likely to bugger off back home at the slightest sniff of money. These new guys love the club they play for. You only had to see the way Chick and Holland roused the guys after the loss to North last finals series to know where their allegiances really lay. And I put that down to Judge's foresight and determination to forge a new breed.

Judge has been underestimated. His style of coaching was ugly and infuriating, but the club needed a couple of years of that. You can feel the steel in the spine of the on field team now. They are ready to go to the next level. Which is where a more adventurous and less rigid coach such as Schwab comes in.

Judge had a thankless task. It seems to be his lot in life. Now he's performing a similar role at West Coast. You'll hear the same whinging and moaning from Perth that we've had here, but I reckon you'll also see a bloody good West Coast team (under another coach, no doubt) in a few years from now. As a bonus, Judge can now recruit locally rather than trying to relocate his beloved Fremantle boys to Melbourne.

I'd never, ever try to bracket Judge in the league of Jeans or Kennedy. But for mine he's a damn sight better than Joyce, for instance, who inherited a champion team and let it go to seed. Or Peter Knights, a textbook example of what NOT to do when you see a team start to deteriorate.

None of which has the slightest relevance to the topic at hand. I'd like to submit a team, but really I can't go far past Grendel's one. I have my personal favourites, (Hendrie, O'Halloran, Greene, Gowers - who was treated badly and could have been a star in an earlier incarnation of the side - Des Meagher, Ian Bremner) but I wouldn't necessarily advocate them as team of the century candidates.

Cheers.

 

[goatmaster]

Roger,
Some of what you say about Judge is true he did have the thankless task of rebuilding & handling the shake out.
I enjoyed 2 premierships with a low level of talent under Judge at East Freo (92 & 94) & through 97 would have stuck up for him.
I think you over rate his East Fremantle connections a bit. I am an East Freo man myself & have watched us not draft the following - Woewodin, Simon Black(went at mid 20's), Hasleby (Judge overuled our recruiting people who wanted him as our 17y.o in the 98 draft we took Loats)& Read who have all become regular senior players. I will concede I don't think anyone thought Woewodin was a likely but I could have told you the rest were good. He also was responsible for drafting Krummell at No 3.
Hawthorn & East Freo go back a long way - you would find a huge proportion of East Freo supporters are Hawkers as well.
The other real problem with Judge is he is a whinger if you saw his bleating last year in Perth about how his list was rubbish no-one there could play you like me would be convinced he is not a good coach any more

 

[RogerC]

True goatmaster, I may have overstated Judge's claims a bit. I only wanted to make the point that he's not the joke a lot of Hawthorn fans seem to think he was.

He drove us in the outer to distraction in those last couple of Waverley years. No one in the team appeared to have room to play; they were all tagging, it seemed. The jury's out on the impact he makes on West Coast, and I suppose it will be for a couple of years yet. This whinging is a disturbing development, though. I suppose it's possible he was doing much the same at Hawthorn. In a city with only two teams all comments get amplified.

I'm just remembering the last five games of 99, the run that nearly took us to the finals. At times it looked like a different team out there. It's as if Judge decided he was going anyway, and just let the boys have their head. The demolition job on Sydney was astonishing.

Cheers.

 

[goatmaster]

Saw that game against Sydney & you are right it was stunning. My perception was that Judge had done the deal with West Coast & maybe then changed his mind as we improved & they faded. Remember Round 17 we were about 13th & they were 3rd? Looks a good deal by the end it looks crook.
On the whingeing you have to live in Perth to understand that to be Eagles coach is to be the almighty who will not be questioned his whining about the list was accepted as accurate & not his doing. The dorks in the media who 1/2 way through 99 were talking grand final etc were 12 months later about how Judge had a crap list.
The best of the lot though was after the 2nd Freo game- he said he was very proud of the effort - for christs sake they had blown a 7 goal lead don't care who you are playing that is terrible. He then led the brutality of the Dockers charge. I really do believe by the end of last year he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

 

[RogerC]

Do you think that's part of the reason teams from the West and South Aust are struggling? Weight of expectation? Or perhaps the feeling amongst the players that celebrity is a given no matter what happens on the field? Knowing that massive memberships are guaranteed and adoring crowds will pack every home game must breed some complacency. You'd need some pretty hard nosed bastards in the hierarchy, just to give the players a reality check every now and then.

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

RogerC i take some of your points about Judge, however can i just point out some issues i have with some statements you have made supporting Ken. Firstly you said h didnt chase ready made stars such as Jarman, Tony Hall or Ben Allan, ill leave Rick Davies out for now. If any of those three were available to him he would of sold his mother for them, yes they all went home, but all three provided Hawthorn with great service, Hall in particular only left because he was at the tail end of his career and Hawthorn couldnt come to terms with him in regards to money. I do believe we have the best recruiters in the business and some credit needs to go to them for targeting the likes of Hay and Croad. Also wasnt it Chick who decided at the START of last season he was going home only to change his mind because his wife found employment in Melbourne (so much for Judgies recruits sticking for ever) When the likes of Hall and Jarman were recruited the philosophy on recruiting was vastly different, these days ALL clubs target young guns first. At the time Knightsy was appointed there still was a perception that our list was good enough to make the finals hence his perserverance with Condon and the like, by the time he left it was obvious to EVERYBODY that we had to recruit youth and Judge had nothing to lose because expectation wasnt high at all. Finally wasnt it interesting that the Hawthorn side of '99 came good around about the time Ken allegedly decided he was leaving for West Coast, could it be we had hit rock bottom by that stage of the season and Ken finally decided to let the guys have some freedom in attack? Finally i will never forgive him for deciding to shaft Hawthorn with a season and a bit left on his contract, take Peter German with him and then blame Ian Dicker and the board for his actions! Sure some board members werent happy with him. So What! Sheedy if you remember a couple of years ago was almost voted out of Essendon, HE unlike Judge had confidence enough in his and his lists abilities to enforce the last year of his contract knowing a good showing would make it impossible for them to shaft him. Ken took the easy option, and disregard his contractual obligations (WestCoast as well bleated about Malthouse and Collingwood refusing to deals at the draft table with them, how cynical and two faced is that!), that i could have forgiven him for, to go on this charade and blame our administration, even to the extent of a so called fake interview with Richmond(Richmond administrators admitting later they knew beforehand he was committed to the Eagles) was unforgivable!!!!! Know i find out we could have got HASLEBY!!!!!!!!!! Long live Schwabby

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

RogerC i take some of your points about Judge, however can i just point out some issues i have with some statements you have made supporting Ken. Firstly you said h didnt chase ready made stars such as Jarman, Tony Hall or Ben Allan, ill leave Rick Davies out for now. If any of those three were available to him he would of sold his mother for them, yes they all went home, but all three provided Hawthorn with great service, Hall in particular only left because he was at the tail end of his career and Hawthorn couldnt come to terms with him in regards to money. I do believe we have the best recruiters in the business and some credit needs to go to them for targeting the likes of Hay and Croad. Also wasnt it Chick who decided at the START of last season he was going home only to change his mind because his wife found employment in Melbourne (so much for Judgies recruits sticking for ever) When the likes of Hall and Jarman were recruited the philosophy on recruiting was vastly different, these days ALL clubs target young guns first. At the time Knightsy was appointed there still was a perception that our list was good enough to make the finals hence his perserverance with Condon and the like, by the time he left it was obvious to EVERYBODY that we had to recruit youth and Judge had nothing to lose because expectation wasnt high at all. Finally wasnt it interesting that the Hawthorn side of '99 came good around about the time Ken allegedly decided he was leaving for West Coast, could it be we had hit rock bottom by that stage of the season and Ken finally decided to let the guys have some freedom in attack? Finally i will never forgive him for deciding to shaft Hawthorn with a season and a bit left on his contract, take Peter German with him and then blame Ian Dicker and the board for his actions! Sure some board members werent happy with him. So What! Sheedy if you remember a couple of years ago was almost voted out of Essendon, HE unlike Judge had confidence enough in his and his lists abilities to enforce the last year of his contract knowing a good showing would make it impossible for them to shaft him. Ken took the easy option, and disregard his contractual obligations (WestCoast as well bleated about Malthouse and Collingwood refusing to deals at the draft table with them, how cynical and two faced is that!), that i could have forgiven him for, to go on this charade and blame our administration, even to the extent of a so called fake interview with Richmond(Richmond administrators admitting later they knew beforehand he was committed to the Eagles) was unforgivable!!!!! Know i find out we could have got HASLEBY!!!!!!!!!! Long live Schwabby