Strategy How to improve in 2017

[Ray Donovan]

I'm not disputing the price paid because you are right, it was quite high. Lions ended up with Berry, (who I like but we already have similar players to) from that 2016 rd 1 pick of ours, so Carl only used it in trade to load up on more GWS players.

The price for Tuohy is yet to be seen, I would argue that we needed his type of player for the coming season & a 2017 2nd rd pick will come in handy.

In regards to Carl not playing Hendo after he had asked for the trade. As you say, it would be common for players/managers/clubs to know weeks (if not even earlier) b4 the draft but how many of them actually come out and say it publicly so far in advance?

For the most part nothing is said or done until after the club has finished for the season.

That's all fair but usually a player of Henderson's ilk even if leaving will want him to play well to drive his value up not just wipe your hands of a player. Nominating a club does not mean yiu get to go there. Restricted free agents need to be traded or enter draft unless a verbal agreement with Geelong was already struck which would be the most logical.
That's why I said I personally felt they were unwanted at carlton.

I mean its similar to Dangerfield 12 months out he had signed on board to become a cat. All the right people knew he was buying a house down here his wife Mardi in a Geelong girl he was coming home Adelaide a good club struck a fair deal!

 

[patmatcat]

Not sure is this has been mentioned here but...
There is now no incentive to finish top four at the moment, as every finals team gets a break, before finals.

 

[patmatcat]

We had 1 game in 27 days, in finals what a joke.

 

[Ricketz]

Not sure is this has been mentioned here but...
There is now no incentive to finish top four at the moment, as every finals team gets a break, before finals.

I wouldn't say it is done and dusted, but the value of a week off is gone. The second chance is still desirable.

 

[Ricketz]

We had 1 game in 27 days, in finals what a joke.

Yeah, I don't like it at all. Momentum killer.

 

[Willo_]

I wouldn't say it is done and dusted, but the value of a week off is gone. The second chance is still desirable.

A 2nd chance is always good, agree with this point though... what is the point of the week off if it hurts you.

I'm very interested in how the clubs tackle it this year

 

[Pure_Ownage]

That's all fair but usually a player of Henderson's ilk even if leaving will want him to play well to drive his value up not just wipe your hands of a player. Nominating a club does not mean yiu get to go there. Restricted free agents need to be traded or enter draft unless a verbal agreement with Geelong was already struck which would be the most logical.
That's why I said I personally felt they were unwanted at carlton.

I mean its similar to Dangerfield 12 months out he had signed on board to become a cat. All the right people knew he was buying a house down here his wife Mardi in a Geelong girl he was coming home Adelaide a good club struck a fair deal!

Carlton were bottom 4 at that stage and had no reason to play Henderson, they were trying to finish down and get a better draft pick and if he had got injured it would have tanked his trade value. It was obvious why they didn't play him. Aside from Gillon behaving like a prat the rest is logical. Adelaide were pushing for finals so they were always going to play Dangerfield even if they knew he was going.

As for Tuohy the reason he was traded was because without trading Gibbs they had no other way to get Marchbank (he was the only other player capable of getting them a 1st rounder) and SOS is obsessed with becoming GWS lite. Both were wanted at Carlton and both are good players.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Tom Mitchell went to the hawks for pick 14 from a grand finalist Sydney to bitter rival hawthorn because good clubs do fair deals because they back themselves to develop and draft players. Other clubs essendon and Carlton sos and dedoro two of the hardest list managers to deal with. Anyone remember the jake Carlisle deal geez a first rounder for a 27 year old thuoy is complete overs caddy went out for pick 24 !

You need to refer to the Tuohy deal in it's entirety as we got back a 2nd rounder and Carlton will probably finish bottom 4 and we are likely to finish top 6. Effectively we traded Tuohy for a 6-8 pick downgrade + pick 63 (hardly of much value) and Billie Smedts (who was basically a salary dump as Carlton took over his contract for us).

 

[Ricketz]

A 2nd chance is always good, agree with this point though... what is the point of the week off if it hurts you.

I'm very interested in how the clubs tackle it this year

Me too. One thing I am sure of is Scott won't be drawn in to comment if we face the same situation this year

If the vfl was still going, I would almost bet we would pretty much play an AFL side in the bye week, and only rest players with niggles.

 

[dazbroncos]

You need to refer to the Tuohy deal in it's entirety as we got back a 2nd rounder and Carlton will probably finish bottom 4 and we are likely to finish top 6. Effectively we traded Tuohy for a 6-8 pick downgrade + pick 63 (hardly of much value) and Billie Smedts (who was basically a salary dump as Carlton took over his contract for us).

The face value of the sticker shock is real - A rd1 pick for Tuohy is high. In reality, as you mentioned, if you feel a potential downgrade of 8 spots to get a 120 game player, that fits a need for us, (running and attacking CHB) that has zero injury history to speak of, then ok.

But its a bit early IMO to rule that. It certainly could happen but it seems to be a calculated risk - and after some of the calculated risks we have made that have not worked ( HMAC etc) this seems on the surface to be one of the better ones.

GO Catters

 

[Stan The Caddy]

A 2nd chance is always good, agree with this point though... what is the point of the week off if it hurts you.

I'm very interested in how the clubs tackle it this year

It definitely makes finishing in the top 4 less important. There is no doubt about that. The difference between finishing 3rd and 6th is now negligible to say the least.

As you say, it will be interesting to see how clubs view making the top 4 compared to previous years.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

It definitely makes finishing in the top 4 less important. There is no doubt about that. The difference between finishing 3rd and 6th is now negligible to say the least.

As you say, it will be interesting to see how clubs view making the top 4 compared to previous years.

I reckon clubs will try and make top 4 for the simple reason that if you do it generally means you have won most of your games against the other top 8 teams which is what coaches would want but maybe they don't pursue top 4 at all costs any more as it's not as much of an advantage is 5-8 have the week off anyway.

 

[Stan The Caddy]

I reckon clubs will try and make top 4 for the simple reason that if you do it generally means you have won most of your games against the other top 8 teams which is what coaches would want but maybe they don't pursue top 4 at all costs any more as it's not as much of an advantage is 5-8 have the week off anyway.

Yep, fair call. I just think that clubs might be willing to risk losing a couple of extra games if it means that they are healthier for when the finals begin, even if it means that they risk losing the double chance that finishing top 4 provides.

 

[The rabbi]

Yep, fair call. I just think that clubs might be willing to risk losing a couple of extra games if it means that they are healthier for when the finals begin, even if it means that they risk losing the double chance that finishing top 4 provides.

I don't know, but I suspect that it may be an overreaction to what happened last season.
I would still like to have the luxury of a double chance come finals. The events of 2016 may be an anomaly.

 

[Stan The Caddy]

I don't know, but I suspect that it may be an overreaction to what happened last season.
I would still like to have the luxury of a double chance come finals. The events of 2016 may be an anomaly.

I think that we would all like the double chance. No doubt about that. I'm not saying that clubs will deliberately lose to avoid it. What I'm saying is that clubs may not be as hell bent on gaining that double chance compared to what they have been in the past. The bye before the finals is a game changer IMO.

But just for the record, I'm not making excuses for our PF exit. We have ourselves to blame for that and no one else. Some hard questions need to be asked, no doubt.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Carlton were bottom 4 at that stage and had no reason to play Henderson, they were trying to finish down and get a better draft pick and if he had got injured it would have tanked his trade value. It was obvious why they didn't play him. Aside from Gillon behaving like a prat the rest is logical. Adelaide were pushing for finals so they were always going to play Dangerfield even if they knew he was going.

As for Tuohy the reason he was traded was because without trading Gibbs they had no other way to get Marchbank (he was the only other player capable of getting them a 1st rounder) and SOS is obsessed with becoming GWS lite. Both were wanted at Carlton and both are good players.

Both are B graders with trade value and expendable. Thuoy had a contract in front of him that they were not willing to budge or up the ante to keep him. If you want a player put the cash down or the years. Of course they are going to act like they want him he was trade chip with little value and they turned it into gold. So they wanted marchbank under 10 gamer more than thuoy they screwed Gibbs out of a trade and pick 14 a player and possibly a 2nd rounder good deal for Gibbs. Our pick could possibly be under 14 to Carlton this season that's what they knocked back basically for Bryce Gibbs. And we pickup thuoy anyway it doesn't matter Zach will be o.k in short term but I watch a lot of Carlton in my time and never was blown away by 2e or Henderson

 

[Ray Donovan]

You need to refer to the Tuohy deal in it's entirety as we got back a 2nd rounder and Carlton will probably finish bottom 4 and we are likely to finish top 6. Effectively we traded Tuohy for a 6-8 pick downgrade + pick 63 (hardly of much value) and Billie Smedts (who was basically a salary dump as Carlton took over his contract for us).

Yep now we need to use two first rounders in the next 2 years and we only have 1 pick 2019 available so we will need to move a player. That's the long term view a big name player will probably have to go so that's included in the entirety

 

[Ray Donovan]

The face value of the sticker shock is real - A rd1 pick for Tuohy is high. In reality, as you mentioned, if you feel a potential downgrade of 8 spots to get a 120 game player, that fits a need for us, (running and attacking CHB) that has zero injury history to speak of, then ok.

But its a bit early IMO to rule that. It certainly could happen but it seems to be a calculated risk - and after some of the calculated risks we have made that have not worked ( HMAC etc) this seems on the surface to be one of the better ones.

GO Catters

Agreed i just just feel it is a big risk considering its not going to be easy to make the 8 this season considering how close it was last year and with 3 really strong sides at the top this is a move you make when you think you could win it this season everything is in now. This deal needs 2 seasons to really show its value just long term I look and see a horrible deal in personal opinion most will disagree. We have a good season we will be in the top 6 we have a few injuries and the teams below us continue development freo pop back up st kilda coming Melbourne might actually put it together everything needs to go right like it always does!

 

[Cool Cat]

I don't know, but I suspect that it may be an overreaction to what happened last season.
I would still like to have the luxury of a double chance come finals. The events of 2016 may be an anomaly.

A double chance is great, but remember that second chance is gone after the first weekend of finals, and the 5th and 6th ranked sides are playing weaker opponents that week in any case. I am not making excuses for our poor 2016 finals performance, but that extra week off was a huge disadvantage when we (and others - was it gws on the other side of the finals draw?) were supposed to be assisted due to our ladder position.
A poor outcome in terms of the integrity of the competition, but the on-going uneven draw situation proves that the integrity of the competition and an even playing field is not the AFLs priority anyway, and has not been for many years.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Both are B graders with trade value and expendable. Thuoy had a contract in front of him that they were not willing to budge or up the ante to keep him. If you want a player put the cash down or the years. Of course they are going to act like they want him he was trade chip with little value and they turned it into gold. So they wanted marchbank under 10 gamer more than thuoy they screwed Gibbs out of a trade and pick 14 a player and possibly a 2nd rounder good deal for Gibbs. Our pick could possibly be under 14 to Carlton this season that's what they knocked back basically for Bryce Gibbs. And we pickup thuoy anyway it doesn't matter Zach will be o.k in short term but I watch a lot of Carlton in my time and never was blown away by 2e or Henderson

I was never blown away by Henderson except for a few games when he first got to Carlton as a defender. Didn't think he was worth a rnd 1 at the time but he's going to be a long term player. Can't complain.
I've always really liked 2E and is one of my fave non Geelong players so I was stoked to get him.
1st rounder (+Smedts) was way overs though.
That said I honestly believe he'll play 150 games for us and he's what we really needed.
Cant complain too much.

 

[Bobby_]

A double chance is great, but remember that second chance is gone after the first weekend of finals, and the 5th and 6th ranked sides are playing weaker opponents that week in any case. I am not making excuses for our poor 2016 finals performance, but that extra week off was a huge disadvantage when we (and others - was it gws on the other side of the finals draw?) were supposed to be assisted due to our ladder position.
A poor outcome in terms of the integrity of the competition, but the on-going uneven draw situation proves that the integrity of the competition and an even playing field is not the AFLs priority anyway, and has not been for many years.

A team like Geelong, who rely on so few must have the double chance to be any chance of getting to a grand final. We do not have a midfield that bats as deep as GWS or the Bulldogs and we do not have a forward line with so many tall options at any point during a game.

If we were talking about the Geelong of 2011, then sure, finishing 5th or 7th, we could still beat anyone and make the final dance but you need to be realistic here.
Since our last premiership, the club is 2-6 in finals and please take into account we needed a missed shot on goal after the siren for the team to advance to the preliminary final.
The odds on us winning 3 finals in a row to make the grand final would be next to impossible with only one genuine key forward and a midfield solely reliant on two superstars.

 

[Hamingja]

The main problem for Geelong re finishing outside the top 4 would be winning away finals. Adelaide Oval seems to suit the team so maybe they could beat Adelaide, knocking over the Eagles in Perth and GWS in Sydney like the dogs did, I couldn't see it.

 

[Ray Donovan]

I was never blown away by Henderson except for a few games when he first got to Carlton as a defender. Didn't think he was worth a rnd 1 at the time but he's going to be a long term player. Can't complain.
I've always really liked 2E and is one of my fave non Geelong players so I was stoked to get him.
1st rounder (+Smedts) was way overs though.
That said I honestly believe he'll play 150 games for us and he's what we really needed.
Cant complain too much.

We will see I suppose might not get a 150 out of him though as he is 27 and only played 120 so far. He needs to be at career best to make this all worthwhile

 

[Ray Donovan]

The main problem for Geelong re finishing outside the top 4 would be winning away finals. Adelaide Oval seems to suit the team so maybe they could beat Adelaide, knocking over the Eagles in Perth and GWS in Sydney like the dogs did, I couldn't see it.

The bulldogs are a freak occurance and before injuries were a top 4 side this year. That was proven when they knocked of the above mentioned sides and hawthorn and Sydney off at the G. It was one of those 1-100 scenarios where everything went perfect for them. We ain't knocking off Sydney, GWS, WC, Hawthorn at kardinia park let alone 4 away games!

 

[Ray Donovan]

A double chance is great, but remember that second chance is gone after the first weekend of finals, and the 5th and 6th ranked sides are playing weaker opponents that week in any case. I am not making excuses for our poor 2016 finals performance, but that extra week off was a huge disadvantage when we (and others - was it gws on the other side of the finals draw?) were supposed to be assisted due to our ladder position.
A poor outcome in terms of the integrity of the competition, but the on-going uneven draw situation proves that the integrity of the competition and an even playing field is not the AFLs priority anyway, and has not been for many years.

The double chance is extremely beneficial and allowed Henderson to play in our finals series. In week 2 how are 5th and 6th playing weaker opponents because they are playing the losers of 1-4 and 2-3! You have to beat a top 4 side on their home deck. And ladder position is not always a true representation of who is the best side inside the top 4!.

2016 Sydney minor prems - WB (7) P
2015 Fremantle minor prems Haw (3) P
2014 Sydney minor prems. Haw (2) P

How is having an extra week off for a top 4 side a hindrence to the team. After 23 rounds you win first final then get a week off again. To train and recover the reason Sydney and WB played in the grandfinal is because WB beat GWS who are likely on form lines to be the 2nd best team in the afl last season considering they dismantled Sydney in the first final and lost to the dogs by 6. Sydney were the minor premiers and proven to be a better side then we were last season.

You can theorise 1 miraculous result from 1 season anyway you like but its not because we had 1 extra week off to rest and train our players after 23 rounds of football.

If I remember correctly tippet broke his jaw and missed Adelaide knockout final. Mills missed with hamstring and mcveigh did his calf and the co captain missed the prelim v geelong. While we trained and watch the other teams battle in knockout finals. We had no disadvantage the best two teams made grandfinal and everyone got a bye after home and away just means better teams should be fresher.