Vic How would you rate Daniel Andrews' performance as Victorian Premier? - Part 7

[Not Important]

You’ve posted about Baxter and Crabb recently. One says the flu is gone and the other has compared flu deaths to covid deaths in 2022 and proceeded to tell us that covid is 50-100 times more deadly based on 2022 stats alone. Fear mongering again and also underplaying the flu.

Funnily enough they are clashing.

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think u r spending 2 much time in the bolt school of comment.

if u spent time reading the full positions of crabb and baxter you'd know they r fundamentally in accord. selective quoting is very boltish.

interesting there's no comment on the fact the peeps u referenced have little 2 no credibility on the matters under discussion. all of mine have and in this country.

i mostly enjoy your contributions, but you're way off the pace here.

time 2 move on 2 an area about which u have some expertise. like the doggies

 

[adogsfan5]

think u r spending 2 much time in the bolt school of comment.

if u spent time reading the full positions of crabb and baxter you'd know they r fundamentally in accord. selective quoting is very boltish.

interesting there's no comment on the fact the peeps u referenced have little 2 no credibility on the matters under discussion. all of mine have and in this country.

i mostly enjoy your contributions, but you're way off the pace here.

time 2 move on 2 an area about which u have some expertise. like the doggies

Just saying mate, you can’t be posting that type of garbage on Twitter. Burnet institute raises a lot of good points but should be much better than that when it comes to public health.

Go dogs

 

[FRUMPY]

think u r spending 2 much time in the bolt school of comment.

if u spent time reading the full positions of crabb and baxter you'd know they r fundamentally in accord. selective quoting is very boltish.

interesting there's no comment on the fact the peeps u referenced have little 2 no credibility on the matters under discussion. all of mine have and in this country.

i mostly enjoy your contributions, but you're way off the pace here.

time 2 move on 2 an area about which u have some expertise. like the doggies

If only you people didn't go to work and wore masks when you had a cold or flu and others were catching colds and flus and dying...

You know, when you didn't give a ****......

On CPH2005 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Of course you wouldn't be happy. How often do negative RATs turn positive after a day or two, we've had examples of the same thing happening where I work and the person subsequently ends up testing positive. Even if they don't is it really that much of an issue to work from home for a couple of days until your symptoms resolve, do you really love being in the office that much? Sets a bad example for the staff too who would then be pressured to turn up being symptomatic unless they have a negative RAT.

This is the whole point, people as a whole cannot be trusted with the "personal responsibility" line which is why government should re-introduce measures (not lockdowns).

In my experience people who insist on working when sick are just narcissists terrified of being found out that they're not as important to the workplace as they'd like to project and others will realise that they're not that good at their job either. It's really not a rational mindset.

 

[Gralin]

In my experience people who insist on working when sick are just narcissists terrified of being found out that they're not as important to the workplace as they'd like to project and others will realise that they're not that good at their job either. It's really not a rational mindset.

Or they don't get sick leave, or have insecure work and a shit boss

 

[adogsfan5]

In my experience people who insist on working when sick are just narcissists terrified of being found out that they're not as important to the workplace as they'd like to project and others will realise that they're not that good at their job either. It's really not a rational mindset.

Some people are in strife financially and live pay by pay. If they are self employed or don’t have access to leave, how would you like them to survive?
Some also feel forced into going in by their boss.
Please stop trying to discredit honest people with this crap.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Or they don't get sick leave, or have insecure work and a s**t boss

Fair point, but I work salary and few that I come across would get that excuse.

Some people are in strife financially and live pay by pay. If they are self employed or don’t have access to leave, how would you like them to survive?
Please stop trying to discredit honest people with this fk* crap.

People who go to work while sick may also come into contact with others who may be in strife financially, live pay by pay, be self-employed or have no access to leave. So please spare me the sanctimony when you're only using people in those positions to make a point after you've made it clear that you couldn't give a **** about those people if they got sick from other people, with personal responsibility and all.

 

[mcnulty]

No one should go to work sick. But the fact is 35% of the workforce is casual. Good luck stopping sick people from going to work in that situation.

 

[adogsfan5]

Fair point, but I work salary and few that I come across would get that excuse.


People who go to work while sick may also come into contact with others who may be in strife financially, live pay by pay, be self-employed or have no access to leave. So please spare me the sanctimony when you're only using people in those positions to make a point after you've made it clear that you couldn't give a * about those people if they got sick from other people, with personal responsibility and all.

And you’re only using people to make it clear you don’t give a shi* about others who need to work to live. You chuck the general blanket over everyone without looking at all factors. See both can play this game.

Narcissists .. fu** me. Staggering.

 

[adogsfan5]

No one should go to work sick. But the fact is 35% of the workforce is casual. Good luck stopping sick people from going to work in that situation.

Na they are selfish, they should all have adequate savings to survive.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

And you’re only using people to make it clear you don’t give a shi* about others who need to work to live. You chuck the general blanket over everyone without looking at all factors. See both can play this game.

I prefaced what I said with "in my experience". I don't work casual and I don't encounter people on casual wage in my office, none of whom have insecure work or no sick leave. I thought that would have been obvious, but I'm happy to bear the wrath of your moral outrage if it makes you feel better.

 

[adogsfan5]

I prefaced what I said with "in my experience". I don't work casual and I don't encounter people on casual wage in my office, none of whom have insecure work or no sick leave. I thought that would have been obvious, but I'm happy to bear the wrath of your moral outrage if it makes you feel better.

It’s common sense regarding casual workers I would have thought. You generalised. We see it.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

It’s common sense regarding casual workers I would have thought. You generalised. We see it.

Do you feel better yet?

 

[adogsfan5]

Do you feel better yet?

It’s got nothing to do with who is feeling better and I apologise for coming off as steamy and rude as it wasn’t directed at you individually. I’ve said it multiple times on this thread that there are people out there on the brink financially. I’ve also said it more than once that if we want casuals (25% of the country)/self employed people who can’t work from home, to stay home when sick (even if they are still capable to work) and they are struggling financially, then the government needs to come out and assist these people financially. But this needs to be STRICTLY to this specific group of people. But I also understand at the same time that the government can’t keep affording this forever, so therefore where does that leave us?
Can we budget it in some other way?

There is so much more to it than “if you’re sick and you go to work, you’re a selfish arseh*le”. It is such a lazy generalisation (and I’m not saying you said that).

If that makes me a piece of sh*t for caring for these types then so be it. The anger needs to be directed to solutions IMO.

 

[peetoo]

No one should go to work sick. But the fact is 35% of the workforce is casual. Good luck stopping sick people from going to work in that situation.

It disappointed me that in all the covid enquires, the contribution of casualised workforce wasn’t really highlighted

Casual workforce is mainly in jobs where there’s lots of public interaction too

 

[Crankyhawk]

oh i agree with that. business trumps health every time. and it's counterproductive.

striking a balance is difficult; and I'm still wanting to see analysis of costs of lockdown vs expected life years saved
Because without economic activity and taxation there is no organised health care.

 

[Crankyhawk]

thanks. the fact there are no links really doesn't matter cos only one those quoted has the medical qualifications 2 comment on the matter at hand ie epidemiology, infectious disease, immunology, microbiology et al. that one would be coatsworth who is right wing liberal member and apologist whose comments on the whole covid matter have been either significantly wrong, inaccurate, even laughable. of the others:



hoeg is an orthopedic physician.



bhattachrya is an economist



prasad is an historian



balloux is computational biologist



kulldorth is a stastician



over time i've not only referenced prof alan baxter - immunologist; but prof raina macintyre - principal research fellow, who leads a research program on the prevention and control of infectious diseases; prof scott crabb microbiologist; prof nancy baxter, primary researcher in clinical epidemiology; prof peter doherty, immunologist and nobel laureate; prof mary-louise mcLaws epidemiologist specialising in infection prevention, and member of the world health organisation health emergencies program and member of the advisory panel for infection prevention and control preparedness, readiness and response. all australian professionals. i could go on.



it’s interesting that the very same peeps who underplay the covid figures, the effects of long covid and the hospital beds covid patients are occupying are the same peeps who bleat endlessly about not being able 2 get a hospital bed.

the orthopaedic physician may have also been driven by the initial closure of elective surgery and the impact on his work, as well as concern for elective surgical waiting lists (the natural enemy of emergency doctors when it comes to the war for bed stock in a hospital)

 

[Crankyhawk]

You’ve posted about Baxter and Crabb recently. One says the flu is gone and the other has compared flu deaths to covid deaths in 2022 and proceeded to tell us that covid is 50-100 times more deadly based on 2022 stats alone. Fear mongering again and also underplaying the flu.

Funnily enough they are clashing.

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There is a "little" flu currently - at least in hospital populations - but not a zero number. Our hospital when we do our covid pcr routinely tests for flu a and flu b as well.
Probably a bit silly of Baxter to state "no" flu as someone was always going to take it out of context. The amount of flu is much less than it was pre covid pandemic - likely from the still reduced amount of overseas travel, some people choosing to wear masks, and increase in use of hand sanitsers IM

I don't think it can be disputed that there are way more COVID deaths annually than we previously had with influenza, even with swine flu peak.

 

[adogsfan5]

There is a "little" flu currently - at least in hospital populations - but not a zero number. Our hospital when we do our covid pcr routinely tests for flu a and flu b as well.
Probably a bit silly of Baxter to state "no" flu as someone was always going to take it out of context. The amount of flu is much less than it was pre covid pandemic - likely from the still reduced amount of overseas travel, some people choosing to wear masks, and increase in use of hand sanitsers IM

I don't think it can be disputed that there are way more COVID deaths annually than we previously had with influenza, even with swine flu peak.

No dispute at all there. Burnet though have constantly driven fear and panic. To cherry pick 2022 stats to make a bold claim like they have, when there’s very minimal flu around is pretty piss poor.

 

[Crankyhawk]

No dispute at all there. Burnet though have constantly driven fear and panic. To cherry pick 2022 stats to make a bold claim, when there’s very minimal flu around is pretty piss poor.

It is sometimes difficult to present statistics in a way that the public understands. Would you say case fatality rate comparisons would be more meaningful? Influenza also was generally under diagnosed (testing only in hospital really and that only since the last swine flu, prior to that was “who cares if we diagnose it because there’s not much to do”. After swine flu there was more attention paid to cohorting/ bed placement to reduce in hospital transmission- at cost of ED flow due to lack of isolation capacity- insert gripe about how it’s always ok for ED to operate in shit conditions to pander to the softness of ward staff

But covid probably has more cases as well as higher case fatality too. the swine flu (2009) having a total of 35000 confirmed cases (source federal department of health) and my hospital was an epicentre thanks to some fools working in the local shopping centre food court while sick. That’s not 35000/ day but for the whole 4 months. For all of Australia.

Covid was hitting that number per day during the big peaks (from 10/3/22 to august 2022 with a dip to only 20k daily for part of june) so that’s already 100x the cases which means all one needs is the same case fatality rate to be 100x death rate of flu.

 

[Not Important]

the orthopaedic physician may have also been driven by the initial closure of elective surgery and the impact on his work, as well as concern for elective surgical waiting lists (the natural enemy of emergency doctors when it comes to the war for bed stock in a hospital)

maybe, but putting he has real expertise in the field is just silly and serves 2 demonstrate fan5 couldn't find real expertise in refuting the positions of the peeps who do have that expertise.

fan5 is one of the few rightists who usually writes with a sense of balance. but on this matter has been - 2 be kind - disjointed.


i've referenced peeps qualified in the field - epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists, immunologist et al. many world renowned. when pressed 4 details about his claims that many refute those views he's named a statistician, orthobod, historian, economist etc all from elsewhere. the only person with a barely relevant local medical backgound was coatsworth who very few take seriously. and when challenged on that matter he just moved into 'look-over-here’ mode.


then comes more boltism by selectively and out of context quoting a tweet or 2 - apparently enlarging them makes them more telling. both prof crabb and prof baxter have written extensively on the worrying and growing numbers. but a selective and out of context tweet or 2 and enlarging shows the profs r wide of the mark. let’s not delve into their more extensive work. sadly fan5's ideology has got hold of him and he's all over the place.


i will say the latest figures have shown some improvement here. not so much in other places like the u.k though.


interesting there’s been a major move to mask wearing in japan.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

On another topic I'm surprised him and his government aren't getting more heat after the Metro tunnel works over were stuffed up meaning peak hour trains on the Pakenham/Cranbourne line have had to be reduced.



The rumour going around is the controllers at Sunshine having to resort to paper and pen to keep track of what train is where.

 

[adogsfan5]

maybe, but putting he has real expertise in the field is just silly and serves 2 demonstrate fan5 couldn't find real expertise in refuting the positions of the peeps who do have that expertise.

fan5 is one of the few rightists who usually writes with a sense of balance. but on this matter has been - 2 be kind - disjointed.


i've referenced peeps qualified in the field - epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists, immunologist et al. many world renowned. when pressed 4 details about his claims that many refute those views he's named a statistician, orthobod, historian, economist etc all from elsewhere. the only person with a barely relevant local medical backgound was coatsworth who very few take seriously. and when challenged on that matter he just moved into 'look-over-here’ mode.


then comes more boltism by selectively and out of context quoting a tweet or 2 - apparently enlarging them makes them more telling. both prof crabb and prof baxter have written extensively on the worrying and growing numbers. but a selective and out of context tweet or 2 and enlarging shows the profs r wide of the mark. let’s not delve into their more extensive work. sadly fan5's ideology has got hold of him and he's all over the place.


i will say the latest figures have shown some improvement here. not so much in other places like the u.k though.


interesting there’s been a major move to mask wearing in japan.

We can go on about this forever. I just prefer to not choose to read those experts who continuously tweet and drive fear. They have zero ability to show a balanced view.

Plenty of countries seem to be moving on. The UK are completely revamping their vaccination program to focus on over 50s and the immunosuppressed. I believe 16-49 year olds have until Feb 12 for their booster until it’s closed off. Funnily enough my views seem to be closer in line with our health ministers, whom we kept getting told to listen to during the worst stages of the pandemic.

Anywho- that’s where I’ll leave it.

 

[Crankyhawk]

maybe, but putting he has real expertise in the field is just silly and serves 2 demonstrate fan5 couldn't find real expertise in refuting the positions of the peeps who do have that expertise.

fan5 is one of the few rightists who usually writes with a sense of balance. but on this matter has been - 2 be kind - disjointed.


i've referenced peeps qualified in the field - epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists, immunologist et al. many world renowned. when pressed 4 details about his claims that many refute those views he's named a statistician, orthobod, historian, economist etc all from elsewhere. the only person with a barely relevant local medical backgound was coatsworth who very few take seriously. and when challenged on that matter he just moved into 'look-over-here’ mode.


then comes more boltism by selectively and out of context quoting a tweet or 2 - apparently enlarging them makes them more telling. both prof crabb and prof baxter have written extensively on the worrying and growing numbers. but a selective and out of context tweet or 2 and enlarging shows the profs r wide of the mark. let’s not delve into their more extensive work. sadly fan5's ideology has got hold of him and he's all over the place.


i will say the latest figures have shown some improvement here. not so much in other places like the u.k though.


interesting there’s been a major move to mask wearing in japan.

I thought in general Asian countries were very pro mask wearing (from SARS experience less contagious than covid but a very high CFR )

 

[Crankyhawk]

We can go on about this forever. I just prefer to not choose to read those experts who continuously tweet and drive fear. They have zero ability to show a balanced view.

Plenty of countries seem to be moving on. The UK are completely revamping their vaccination program to focus on over 50s and the immunosuppressed. I believe 16-49 year olds have until Feb 12 for their booster until it’s closed off. Funnily enough my views seem to be closer in line with our health ministers, whom we kept getting told to listen to during the worst stages of the pandemic.

Anywho- that’s where I’ll leave it.

Well to be fair to those experts no one is asking them for their economic opinion it’s more health focused. And the media cycle/ social media cycle doesn’t lend to nuance.

Scary that we get more nuance in bigfooty discussion than the majority of media….