Society/Culture Hypocrisy of The Left - part 3

[iBeng]

I point you to specific examples of woke discourse that people find objectionable, and because you don't know anything about that, you recast it as people taking issue with "historical evidence".

You're clueless.

Hmm, I wonder, perhaps, WHY people wouldnt like this kind of...you know, historical knowledge to be discoursed in the first place?

Surely not because there could be truth in it. No, no, its part of some massive agenda to suppress the white man or something something elites.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Hmm, I wonder, perhaps, WHY people wouldnt like this kind of...you know, historical knowledge to be discoursed in the first place?

Surely not because there could be truth in it. No, no, its part of some massive agenda to suppress the white man or something something elites.

Again, you advertise the fact you don't have a handle on the material.

If you think Robin diAngelo and Ibram X. Kendi are just sharing "historical knowledge", you simply don't understand what people are discussing.

 

[iBeng]

Again, you advertise the fact you don't have a handle on the material.

If you think Robin diAngelo and Ibram X. Kendi are just sharing "historical knowledge", you simply don't understand what people are discussing.

And your solution to this is to pretend after slavery was abolished it was all roses and sunshine and equality for all? That looking at things like Critical Race Theory is just making problems where we can pretend problems havnt been?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

And your solution to this is to pretend after slavery was abolished it was all roses and sunshine and equality for all? That looking at things like Critical Race Theory is just making problems where we can pretend problems havnt been?

Where did I say this?

 

[iBeng]

Where did I say this?

You dont seem to have one or be willing to provide your own ideas on it, you just decide to label the current situation as woke gone mad and liberals being bad.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

You dont seem to have one or be willing to provide your own ideas on it, you just decide to label the current situation as woke gone mad and liberals being bad.

Do you have a rebuttal to anything I've actually said or are you just going to argue against imagined statements?

 

[iBeng]

Do you have a rebuttal to anything I've actually said or are you just going to argue against imagined statements?

So you dont have anything other than "X is bad".

And you wanted to have a debate? I could see it now...First argument: X is bad. Second argument: My opposition is just misrepresenting the arguments. Third argument would be claiming we just dont understand the subject being debated. Fourth argument would be something as per above.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Who says it's evil?

Stop with the false premises. It's tedious to correct them.

False? There's racists/bigots and anti-racists/bigots and there are those who don't care, but even their number doesn't promote racist thought and action and so remain on the side of 'right' in my opinion. You don't think there are those who don't paint every anti-racist as an ANTIFA extremist? I get mocked if not demonised for wanting a more equal world all the time and I consider myself far from a toxic person.

Not that I'm complaining about mockery either. It's just, if you want to oppose equality and societal inclusion WHY?

I don't know who you're referring to here.

The point is that the most woke are not "fellow moderates", hence the pushback from folks who are ostensibly centre-left, secular liberals.

Wokism started as a wish for a just and equal society. Civil rights for all and a respect in public discourse for all. The kernel of it still rings true. To me that's the bare minimum of what a good society runs on. That's still moderate. Moderate left, sure, but still moderate.

I don't know precisely where you stand, and I apologise if I've spoken on your behalf, but we've been hijacked, I think.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

So you dont have anything other than "X is bad".

What does that even mean?

Yes, I disagree with certain aspects of woke discourse, as exemplified by Robin diAngelo and Ibram X. Kendi.

Clearly you've not heard of them so have no idea how to respond to that statement.

And you wanted to have a debate? I could see it now...First argument: X is bad. Second argument: My opposition is just misrepresenting the arguments. Third argument would be claiming we just dont understand the subject being debated. Fourth argument would be something as per above.

Do you have a rebuttal to anything I've actually said?

If not, you can say so.

The issue with woke discourse is not simply that "historical knowledge" is being shared. That is a woefully simplistic misreading of the debate.

I don't think you understand the material sufficently to disagree intelligently.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

False? There's racists/bigots and anti-racists/bigots and there are those who don't care, but even their number doesn't promote racist thought and action and so remain on the side of 'right' in my opinion. You don't think there are those who don't paint every anti-racist as an ANTIFA extremist? I get mocked if not demonised for wanting a more equal world all the time and I consider myself far from a toxic person.

Not that I'm complaining about mockery either. It's just, if you want to oppose equality and societal inclusion WHY?

Who is "you" in your above post?

What do you think you're arguing against? Do you even know?

You're all over the shop.

Wokism started as a wish for a just and equal society. Civil rights for all and a respect in public discourse for all. The kernel of it still rings true. To me that's the bare minimum of what a good society runs on. That's still moderate. Moderate left, sure, but still moderate.

I don't know precisely where you stand, and I apologise if I've spoken on your behalf, but we've been hijacked, I think.

That understates the nature of woke discourse.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Who is "you" in your above post?

What do you think you're arguing against? Do you even know?

Okay, I'm confusing you with the collective 'yous' and the singular 'yous'. My fault entirely. I'm going to rephrase.

False? There's racists/bigots and anti-racists/bigots and there are those who don't care, but even their number doesn't promote racist thought and action and so remain on the side of 'right' in my opinion. You don't think there are those who don't paint every anti-racist as an ANTIFA extremist? I get mocked if not demonised for wanting a more equal world all the time and I consider myself far from a toxic person.

Not that I'm complaining about mockery either. It's just, if a person want to oppose equality and societal inclusion WHY?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Okay, I'm confusing you with the collective 'yous' and the singular 'yous'. My fault entirely. I'm going to rephrase.

False? There's racists/bigots and anti-racists/bigots and there are those who don't care, but even their number doesn't promote racist thought and action and so remain on the side of 'right' in my opinion. You don't think there are those who don't paint every anti-racist as an ANTIFA extremist? I get mocked if not demonised for wanting a more equal world all the time and I consider myself far from a toxic person.

Not that I'm complaining about mockery either. It's just, if a person want to oppose equality and societal inclusion WHY?

Ok, so what is your actual point?

Give it to me in one sentence.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

That understates the nature of woke discourse.

It might be useful to state your position on racism/bigotry and the state of public discourse on the matter so we can all have a more informed conversation about it.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

It might be useful to state your position on racism/bigotry and the state of public discourse on the matter so we can all have a more informed conversation about it.

I am against racism and bigotry, such as I define and identify them.

I also disagree with certain aspects of woke discourse.

So now, in a sentence, what is your point?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Ok, so what is your actual point?

Give it to me in one sentence.

Us centre/secular lefties are all being tarred with the one broad 'woke' brush and I feel its elevating the toxic discourse levels to an extreme amount. So we get to fight on two fronts instead of unified against racism and bigotry.

I feel this is by design, not accident.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Us centre/secular lefties are all being tarred with the one broad 'woke' brush and I feel its elevating the toxic discourse levels to an extreme amount. So we get to fight on two fronts instead of unified against racism and bigotry.

I feel this is by design, not accident.

Speak for yourself. I consider myself a secular, centre-left liberal and I'm taking issue with certain aspects of woke discourse. I actively reject certain aspects of it.

I certainly don't feel tarred with the same brush.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Speak for yourself. I consider myself a secular, centre-left liberal and I'm taking issue with certain aspects of woke discourse. I actively reject certain aspects of it.

I certainly don't feel tarred with the same brush.

Fair enough. Maybe it's now reached a point where 'woke' only considers the extreme position much like 'Islamist' only means the militant jihadic position (behead all infidels!) these days and not mainstream Islam.

But that's another can of worms, isn't it?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Fair enough. Maybe it's now reached a point where 'woke' only considers the extreme position much like 'Islamist' only means the militant jihadic position (behead all infidels!) these days and not mainstream Islam.

That's not what it means.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

That's not what it means.

?

 

[ExcitementMachine]

Geelong_Sicko

You,

2020 'I wouldn't normally protest in a pandemic, but I might just protest what's been married in with The Floyd protests in Merica and for solidarity for BLM protest here.' Police brutality.

2021 'I hope the police are a bit brutal in breaking this protest up', during the freedom riots.

You're hypocrisy is shared by the many.
Heck I knew I was happy to see some of those freedom protestors body slammed but still...

Sort of take a LOT away from the BLM protest in Merica and certainly here in Aus.

 

[Father Jack]

How would you describe it then? You literally have one side of the aisle wanting to acknowledge and educate people on past racisms lasting effects on society today and the other side going "Nah, when slavery stopped everything became equal footing!" carefully ignoring the vast advantages that white people enjoyed and handed over to future generations while the newly 'freed' population of America had to begin behind the biggest eightball of history.

I can fully understand why certain social groups want that to be carefully pruned and ignored from their history.

Yeah, the history of it is pretty simple yet certain types like to pretend that it didn't happen.

During the American Civil War the hard left fanatics were the abolitionists and the hard right fanatics were the slave owners. The moderates were against the expansion of slavery into new territories but were aghast at the idea of freed black people living with and competing for jobs with white people. The spectre of a black man marrying a white woman (it could be your daughter or your sister!!) was used by the pro-slavery parties very effectively.

The idea that all this was 'solved' in 1865 and has no impact on modern America is ridiculous, as is the notion that the Confederate flag is a symbol of anything else but slavery/racism.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Yeah, the history of it is pretty simple yet certain types like to pretend that it didn't happen.

During the American Civil War the hard left fanatics were the abolitionists and the hard right fanatics were the slave owners. The moderates were against the expansion of slavery into new territories but were aghast at the idea of freed black people living with and competing for jobs with white people. The spectre of a black man marrying a white woman (it could be your daughter or your sister!!) was used by the pro-slavery parties very effectively.

The idea that all this was 'solved' in 1865 and has no impact on modern America is ridiculous, as is the notion that the Confederate flag is a symbol of anything else but slavery/racism.

That's fine. I don't disagree. I don't dispute that slavery left an enduring legacy long after the Emancipation Proclamation was passed.

That seems entirely uncontroversial to me.

You can sign up to all of the above and still take issue with aspects of woke discourse.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Geelong_Sicko

You,

2020 'I wouldn't normally protest in a pandemic, but I might just protest what's been married in with The Floyd protests in Merica and for solidarity for BLM protest here.' Police brutality.

2021 'I hope the police are a bit brutal in breaking this protest up', during the freedom riots.

You're hypocrisy is shared by the many.
Heck I knew I was happy to see some of those freedom protestors body slammed but still...

Sort of take a LOT away from the BLM protest in Merica and certainly here in Aus.

Fair call, and if I was painting myself as a True Neutral then I certainly would be a hypocrite. But I'm not neutral. I agree with what's behind the Black Lives Matter movement, as in black lives actually mattering enough not to get killed by police. Let the record show I didn't actually get out there and protest.

The freedom riots. A nucleus of legitimate lockdown pain that was fairly peaceful until it got hijacked by far right f*ckwits and turned violent. That's when my sympathy dried up. If I could have a sworn enemy if would be those arseholes, the far right. Beat them into the ground for all I care.

You're right to question my motivations though. Never be afraid to pull anyone up on hypocrisy if you think it's there.

 

[Father Jack]

That's fine. I don't disagree. I don't dispute that slavery left an enduring legacy long after the Emancipation Proclamation was passed.

That seems entirely uncontroversial to me.

You can sign up to all of the above and still take issue with aspects of woke discourse.

So some aspects of 'woke' discourse are good? Why do I always see 'woke' being used as a negative then?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

So some aspects of 'woke' discourse are good? Why do I always see 'woke' being used as a negative then?

That depends how you define "woke".

I don't think that asserting the facts of slavery and saying that racism exists and it's bad is necessarily "woke". I think you'd find people across the spectrum who'd sign up to that basic proposition.

Much of woke ideology goes beyond that and it's those excesses, those new progressive orthodoxies, where even left-leaning moderates object.