Independent report into Hobart's proposed new stadium has found the costs of the project have been significantly underestimated

[Tasmanian saint]

Hawks in Launceston generates a lot of tourism money.

Very quick and easy to get from Melb to there. My parents go once a year from Syd and love spending a few extra days there.

The big problem with this new stadium deal is that the AFL and Feds have capped their spending meaning Tasmania 100% at risk from the cost blowouts we know will happen. And a lot of Tasmanians are wisely against this.

Having Vic talking heads call them crazy and shortsighted doesnt help. We know the true cost will smash the Tassie economy and there willnever be a net return on the investment.

To say there will never be a
Return on investment is a very short sighted view and not accurate at all !

 

[HairyO]

To say there will never be a
Return on investment is a very short sighted view and not accurate at all !

Assuming the actual cost is double - which I would say is conservative and the real cost will be 3 x, how quickly do you think it turns a profit?

For how long do people from interstate go to games, as opposed to locals taking all the seats?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The big problem with this new stadium deal is that the AFL and Feds have capped their spending meaning Tasmania 100% at risk from the cost blowouts we know will happen. And a lot of Tasmanians are wisely against this.

That’s not really a “problem”. The stadium will be owned and operated by the Tasmanian government (or whatever stat body they nominate or set up). They have to pay for it, it’s theirs. The fed govt and AFL are just making a contribution.

It’s the same with basically every major stadium across Australia (with a few exceptions). They’re owned and operated by state government.

The cost is going to be enormous. Stadiums always are. If Tasmania decides it’s simply cost prohibitive and not worth it, I think people would understand.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

The wages the construction and building sector declares they all deserve is insanely corrupt. 70 dollars an hour to hold a lolli pop sign

70 on its own is crap, but when you realise that the shift includes absolutely no breaks (including toilet), it's actually not that insane

 

[geelong_crazy26]

70 on its own is crap, but when you realise that the shift includes absolutely no breaks (including toilet), it's actually not that insane

Mate... People holding a lollipop sign should not be earning a per annum salary of aprox 145,000... That is no matter how you look at it ridiculous. That is what some GP’s earn who have gone to medical school.

For the education responsibilities and training, 60k should be fair

 

[HairyO]

70 on its own is crap, but when you realise that the shift includes absolutely no breaks (including toilet), it's actually not that insane

Not sure how it works where you live, but in Sydney they spend easily half their time sitting down.

 

[The Tilt]

Mate... People holding a lollipop sign should not be earning a per annum salary of aprox 145,000... That is no matter how you look at it ridiculous. That is what some GP’s earn who have gone to medical school.

For the education responsibilities and training, 60k should be fair

I know people who do the lollipop sign job. Firstly, the job has more to it than just holding a sign: that's one task and unsurprisingly the job includes others. I don't do the job myself so I'm not expert, but you need to have an understanding of the full construction site so that they can direct people within and members of the public around it etc.

Secondly, the figures reported on what they earn are typically horsesh!t. You hear $200,000 per year being bandied about: it's the sort of figure arrived at by assuming a worker threads the needle of doing every available weekend and public holiday shift, working nights (with loading) etc etc.: to be fair, if someone took on that type of load they'd probably deserve the $200,000. In reality, people work more regular hours, shifts get confirmed the day of/the day before, and they're normally out of work for a month across December and January as construction sites shut down over the Xmas period. My mate makes himself available every bit of work on offer (especially public holidays) and earns around $100,000 before tax.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Mate... People holding a lollipop sign should not be earning a per annum salary of aprox 145,000... That is no matter how you look at it ridiculous. That is what some GP’s earn who have gone to medical school.

For the education responsibilities and training, 60k should be fair

Who the **** are you to tell other people what their labor is worth? So friggen ignorant.

 

[HairyO]

Who the **** are you to tell other people what their labor is worth? So friggen ignorant.

If it is government funded, then as a taxpayer absolutely we should have a say. Do you think governments spend money well?

 

[Rail King]

Not sure how it works where you live, but in Sydney they spend easily half their time sitting down.

I live in front of a huge building project.
The traffic controllers/ lollipop sign holders do literally nothing 95% of the day.
They sit around in groups talking and playing with their phones.

 

[HairyO]

I live in front of a huge building project.
The traffic controllers/ lollipop sign holders do literally nothing 95% of the day.
They sit around in groups talking and playing with their phones.

Yeah, the playing with phones thing to me is far worse than the sitting down thing. At least sitting down you basically have the same view - you just need to get up from time to time.

But the playing on the phone thing shows they simply arent paying attention to what is going on.

 

[Walshawk]

14 years into a multi generational business plan.

GC and GWS will see returns when kids turn to adults and than have families of their own.

We are a long way off that yet but it will happen eventually.

I doubt that there is a multi generational business plan in existence. But let’s say that there is, what might the metrics be for year 14 to demonstrate that it is working?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

the fact that 1000’s try to get on these big builds and can’t tells you all you need to know about how overpaid they are.
In saying that I would loved to know the actual % of the cost their wage is. Everyone has a finger in the pie ripping off the government and I doubt they are getting the biggest slice.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Mate... People holding a lollipop sign should not be earning a per annum salary of aprox 145,000... That is no matter how you look at it ridiculous. That is what some GP’s earn who have gone to medical school.

For the education responsibilities and training, 60k should be fair

They sound like numbers out of the Herald Sun, whose job it is to bash unions for the Liberal Party.

Unions would say they’re paid a shitload less.

As with everything the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

(Also I would just say - a traffic controller’s job isn’t just to “hold a lollipop sign”)

 

[Rich01]

The big problem with this new stadium deal is that the AFL and Feds have capped their spending meaning Tasmania 100% at risk from the cost blowouts we know will happen. And a lot of Tasmanians are wisely against this.

Having Vic talking heads call them crazy and shortsighted doesnt help. We know the true cost will smash the Tassie economy and there willnever be a net return on the investment.

Yep, the Tassie govt is also trying to protect itself from blow outs, just like the AFL and Feds have done.

Ridiculous by some AFL media claiming the Tassie govt is dropping the ball if it doesn’t pick up the slack. They should be asking their employers to do some of the additional heavy lifting.

And also a miss from the AFL ceo not hitting up the PM for more $$$.

 

[Rich01]

They sound like numbers out of the Herald Sun, whose job it is to bash unions for the Liberal Party.

Unions would say they’re paid a shitload less.

As with everything the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

(Also I would just say - a traffic controller’s job isn’t just to “hold a lollipop sign”)

Herald Sun agenda setting aside, I can’t think of one big build project that the unions and vic govt has declared that has been on time and on budget.

 

[HairyO]

Yep, the Tassie govt is also trying to protect itself from blow outs, just like the AFL and Feds have done.

Ridiculous by some AFL media claiming the Tassie govt is dropping the ball if it doesn’t pick up the slack. They should be asking their employers to do some of the additional heavy lifting.

And also a miss from the AFL ceo not hitting up the PM for more $$$.

And if the AFL is so sure of the numbers, they can insure against blowouts. But we know they wont because they know how ridiculous everything now costs to build in this country.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I doubt that there is a multi generational business plan in existence. But let’s say that there is, what might the metrics be for year 14 to demonstrate that it is working?

take GC as an example

ever since GC entered the comp AFL at junior levels in the Gold Coast has increased playing AFL.

AFL participation continues to boom in Queensland

Aussie Rules in Queensland continues to soar to new heights, with the all-time community football participation record surpassed. More than 68,000 people are now registered to play Australia’s game in the sunshine state.

www.goldcoastfc.com.au

This is exactly what the AFL want, more kids playing AFL. When these kids grow up, and get jobs they get money. Than they spend it on AFL memberships and merchandise. When they have kids of their own, they put their kids into AFL etc etc etc. Thats how it all works and grows.

Look at the Swans. Was almost 30 years before they got success in Sydney. No one gave a rats arse about them prior to 2005, they moved to Sydney in 1982, now they have over 70k members.

These expansion plans are multi-generational (30 years +), you won't know until 20 years from now whether they are successful. Thats how expansion works.

Suggesting the GC or Giants are a failure now, just over a decade from introduction, just shows a complete lack of basic understanding of how these things work.

 

[nobbyiscool]

They've ruined community and junior footy through their apathy and dearth of funding to the extent that pretty much anything would be an improvement that they could claim is due to the Devils. They're already doing it.

 

[Walshawk]

take GC as an example

ever since GC entered the comp AFL at junior levels in the Gold Coast has increased playing AFL.

AFL participation continues to boom in Queensland

Aussie Rules in Queensland continues to soar to new heights, with the all-time community football participation record surpassed. More than 68,000 people are now registered to play Australia’s game in the sunshine state.

www.goldcoastfc.com.au

This is exactly what the AFL want, more kids playing AFL. When these kids grow up, and get jobs they get money. Than they spend it on AFL memberships and merchandise. When they have kids of their own, they put their kids into AFL etc etc etc. Thats how it all works and grows.

Look at the Swans. Was almost 30 years before they got success in Sydney. No one gave a rats arse about them prior to 2005, they moved to Sydney in 1982, now they have over 70k members.

These expansion plans are multi-generational (30 years +), you won't know until 20 years from now whether they are successful. Thats how expansion works.

Suggesting the GC or Giants are a failure now, just over a decade from introduction, just shows a complete lack of basic understanding of how these things work.

I was talking about GWS. GC is full of Victorians. It is not the problem.

GWS

• no growth in participation in Western Sydney since 2012 (there was in the first five years but it is now going backwards)
• no growth in crowds (relative to NRL and other AFL crowds they have gone backwards)
• no growth in GWS Sydney TV ratings (Collingwood rate better)
• very good membership numbers
• no presence in mainstream media (TV/radio/newspapers - the SEN talkback hosts says that whenever they talk about the Giants they never get a single talkback caller, it is all about the Swans)
• good social media numbers

There is no way GWS is in track. That is not to say they are without hope, but it isn’t working and it is time to review the strategy.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I was talking about GWS. GC is full of Victorians. It is not the problem.

GWS

• no growth in participation in Western Sydney since 2012 (there was in the first five years but it is now going backwards)
• no growth in crowds (relative to NRL and other AFL crowds they have gone backwards)
• no growth in GWS Sydney TV ratings (Collingwood rate better)
• very good membership numbers
• no presence in mainstream media (TV/radio/newspapers - the SEN talkback hosts says that whenever they talk about the Giants they never get a single talkback caller, it is all about the Swans)
• good social media numbers

There is no way GWS is in track. That is not to say they are without hope, but it isn’t working and it is time to review the strategy.

Different circumstances

GWS moved into a city with a team already so its always going to take longer.

Im not sure of the actual numbers but there seems to be positive moment in AFL grass roots in Sydney.

'It's not about the rivalry': Swans, Giants come together for common goal

AFL players visited 19 local clubs this week as the Swans and Giants came together to grow the game in NSW

www.afl.com.au

They also do have good membership growth.

Anyways I think it's another 15+ years before you can label GWS a failure or not. Just my opinion though.

If you took the exact same metrics, you are looking at above for the Swans in late 90's/Early 2000's, you'd probably see very similar things. Swans are far from a failure now.

 

[speedpeck23]

I was talking about GWS. GC is full of Victorians. It is not the problem.

GWS

• no growth in participation in Western Sydney since 2012 (there was in the first five years but it is now going backwards)
• no growth in crowds (relative to NRL and other AFL crowds they have gone backwards)
• no growth in GWS Sydney TV ratings (Collingwood rate better)
• very good membership numbers
• no presence in mainstream media (TV/radio/newspapers - the SEN talkback hosts says that whenever they talk about the Giants they never get a single talkback caller, it is all about the Swans)
• good social media numbers

There is no way GWS is in track. That is not to say they are without hope, but it isn’t working and it is time to review the strategy.

What should GWS strategy be in your opinion ?

 

[Walshawk]

What should GWS strategy be in your opinion ?

1. Play all games in Sydney. When Showgrounds is out of action in April, play @ SCG v Swans and Collingwood. Some might say the SCG is not in Western Sydney, but neither is Canberra which is 300k further than the SCG. Also play (some) finals at the SCG. No one from interstate wants to travel to Homebush. Homebush is the worst main stadium in the SFL and the location is poor. You will get an extra 10k - 20k to those SCG games, and you might actually pick up some fans from the inner west (see point 3).

2. Change the name back to Western Sydney (the original and legal name of the club). GWS is a mouthful, has little meaning to people and and is not a name that people identify with. Every time it is used in the media it is a missed opportunity to say the words ‘Western Sydney’, which is the what people in Western Sydney call the area that they live in.

3. Rezone the Academy/marketing zones so that suburbs west of the SCG switch from Swans to Giants. It is ridiculous that some western suburbs remain in Swans territory. This includes Bankstown, and the inner west.

Now, there may be plenty of better ideas than these, but something certainly needs to change.

I have family in GWS territory (near Penrith). They are not massive sports fans - they might watch one game of NRL on TV weekly and some Swans games (certainly finals). I remember visiting her in 2017 and asked if she has switched to GWS. She and her husband had no idea what I was talking about. They were not aware that there was a second team in Sydney. They were wondering who GWS was. Now I know 70+ is not the demographic that they are going for, but the point remains - it the most stupid name ever in Australian sport. If there was a soccer team in Tarneit, or Dandenong called GWM, or SESM would anyone know what that meant? Would it have any cut through? Would the supposed target market identify with an acronym? Ridiculous.

If you listen to ‘Across the Divide ‘ with Gerard Whately and Andrew Voss weekly on SEN, they talk about this regularly. Vossy hosts on SEN Sydney. He says that they don’t talk about the Giants because they get zero talkback callers when they do. Not just less than the Swans. Zero. He is an NRL man, but also talks about how his son is playing AFL in western Sydney (Canterbury Bankstown area from memory) and that every single kid and family there follows the Swans. NRL and the Swans are booming in Sydney. Crowds are up significantly. GWS is invisible.

Time to change the narrative.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

the fact that 1000’s try to get on these big builds and can’t tells you all you need to know about how overpaid they are.
In saying that I would loved to know the actual % of the cost their wage is. Everyone has a finger in the pie ripping off the government and I doubt they are getting the biggest slice.

the fact that 1000’s try to get on these big builds and can’t tells you all you need to know about how overpaid they are.
In saying that I would loved to know the actual % of the cost their wage is. Everyone has a finger in the pie ripping off the government and I doubt they are getting the biggest slice.

I have a couple friends working on the just completed Bridgewater bridge project working as riggers 180k a year plus entitlements after the jobs was completed

 

[speedpeck23]

1. Play all games in Sydney. When Showgrounds is out of action in April, play @ SCG v Swans and Collingwood. Some might say the SCG is not in Western Sydney, but neither is Canberra which is 300k further than the SCG. Also play (some) finals at the SCG. No one from interstate wants to travel to Homebush. Homebush is the worst main stadium in the SFL and the location is poor. You will get an extra 10k - 20k to those SCG games, and you might actually pick up some fans from the inner west (see point 3).

2. Change the name back to Western Sydney (the original and legal name of the club). GWS is a mouthful, has little meaning to people and and is not a name that people identify with. Every time it is used in the media it is a missed opportunity to say the words ‘Western Sydney’, which is the what people in Western Sydney call the area that they live in.

3. Rezone the Academy/marketing zones so that suburbs west of the SCG switch from Swans to Giants. It is ridiculous that some western suburbs remain in Swans territory. This includes Bankstown, and the inner west.

Now, there may be plenty of better ideas than these, but something certainly needs to change.

I have family in GWS territory (near Penrith). They are not massive sports fans - they might watch one game of NRL on TV weekly and some Swans games (certainly finals). I remember visiting her in 2017 and asked if she has switched to GWS. She and her husband had no idea what I was talking about. They were not aware that there was a second team in Sydney. They were wondering who GWS was. Now I know 70+ is not the demographic that they are going for, but the point remains - it the most stupid name ever in Australian sport. If there was a soccer team in Tarneit, or Dandenong called GWM, or SESM would anyone know what that meant? Would it have any cut through? Would the supposed target market identify with an acronym? Ridiculous.

If you listen to ‘Across the Divide ‘ with Gerard Whately and Andrew Voss weekly on SEN, they talk about this regularly. Vossy hosts on SEN Sydney. He says that they don’t talk about the Giants because they get zero talkback callers when they do. Not just less than the Swans. Zero. He is an NRL man, but also talks about how his son is playing AFL in western Sydney (Canterbury Bankstown area from memory) and that every single kid and family there follows the Swans. NRL and the Swans are booming in Sydney. Crowds are up significantly. GWS is invisible.

Time to change the narrative.

Agree with one or two home games at SCG... therefore up to 3 matches incl Swans v Giants.. ( Hopefully Swans Giants Bris GC will soon get parity with Crows Port West Coast + Freo and get 13 games each in home state...makes a game at SCG more likely). Obviously your remaining argument implies a new team in Canberra or some other arrangement.....IMO Giants would have to be pretty big in Sydney before that happens.