Is Dirk all time top 10 material ??

[peternorth]

As for the OP, I highly doubt any of us are old enough to comment with any authority. All I can say is that in the years I've been watching basketball, he's clearly behind Olajuwon, Robinson. Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Jordan and LeBron. I think you can put him in the same group as Bryant, Malone and Barkley, though at their best those 3 were clearly better as well.

you can add magic, bird, i. thomas (lol), kareem to that mix.

 

[Damon_3388]

Better supporting cast then Okla and Chicago by a long long way.

I'm probably putting it more in a historical context, where compared to guys like Magic and Bird, Dirk's supporting cast has been consistently average. Still, even compared to OKC and Chicago, Dirk as Dallas' #1 doesn't have another current All-Star he can consistently rely on for production and taking defensive attention like Durant does with Westbrook or Rose does with Boozer.

Would be top 5 I reckon. I wonder how many minutes of the playoffs he has watched or is he too engrossed in stats to care.

Have watched every game that's been broadcast on Australian television, just like I usually do in the regular season. Don't have time (in between everyday life and watching a minimum of 5-6 games of footy a week)/care enough about every single game (especially when my own team has been out of playoff contention since December) to bother with League Pass. Just because I choose to look at and engage in discussion of stats (and I'm always the first to put in the "stats aren't everything disclaimer", and have never, ever claimed that stats are the be-all and end-all of judging anything), it doesn't mean I don't regularly watch games also. It's not a one or the other thing. People can (and do) do both.

 

[peternorth]

Have watched every game that's been broadcast on Australian television, just like I usually do in the regular season. Don't have time (in between everyday life and watching a minimum of 5-6 games of footy a week)/care enough about every single game (especially when my own team has been out of playoff contention since December) to bother with League Pass. Just because I choose to look at and engage in discussion of stats (and I'm always the first to put in the "stats aren't everything disclaimer", and have never, ever claimed that stats are the be-all and end-all of judging anything), it doesn't mean I don't regularly watch games also. It's not a one or the other thing. People can (and do) do both.

nothing wrong with your passion brah.

is it a profession as well? perhaps study it at uni etc?

 

[Damon_3388]

nothing wrong with your passion brah.

is it a profession as well? perhaps study it at uni etc?

I'm doing an Arts degree at uni (majoring in English, minoring in film), and never particularly liked maths at school.

I did Business Maths/Maths Applications as soon as I could at high school, because it was easier and took less effort/time/thinking than the Methods and Studies classes seemed to. I'm one of those people that just can't seem to put effort into stuff I'm not interested in, and you've got to want to do well in maths to actually get anywhere with it IMO. I was never bad at "mainstream maths" or found it especially difficult, but I just didn't want to put in the effort that you need to in order to do reasonably well with it. I didn't really have any intention to get into any maths or science-related field, so I didn't bother with the extra stress of struggling with those kind of subjects (there were a fair number of people at my school who did stuff like Physics and Chemistry too without ending up doing anything related to that at uni, which I always found a bit puzzling - why bother if you don't have to?). Can still do basic maths better than a lot of people my age (particularly the duds at the local supermarkets who can't even add up change correctly, even with a computerised register in front of them), and can understand a lot of different mathematical concepts beyond the basics, but it's not something I'm particularly passionate about. English (reading and writing) is my true "passion subject".

Sports is really the only area that I have an active interest in stats and numbers, and it's strongly linked to my particular interest in football and basketball. If I was purely a stats nut, I'd probably be a massive baseball fan, because it is a goldmine for all sorts of whacky stats, but I really only have a moderate casual interest in that sport.

 

[Borgsta]

No chance. Whilst awards are impressive, Boozer's clearly a better player than Terry, Noah's clearly better than Chandler, Deng's clearly better than Marion (now).

Kidd is good, but there's no way he makes up the above gap when you consider Chicago also have Gisbon, Ronnie Brewer, Asik etc

Chicago has a good supporting cast but they all have massive problems with either under performing or just that their weaknesses are making them liabilities.

Boozer can't defend to save himself and it has allowed Bosh to have a career best series.

I don't see Noah as much of an upgrade on Chandler.

I dunno maybe it's just that Dallas use their support a lot better but if Dirk has an off game I don't instantly think that Dallas are gone. I can't say the same for Rose.

I also don't see much diff between Haywood and Asik or JJ and Gibson for what they bring to the side.

I think it was Mark Jackson saying it so I am loathe to agree but the Bulls have problems in that they can't play Korver and Boozer at the same time. Or Gibson and Noah. I don't see Dallas having that issue.

Perhaps it all comes down to experience and in being 100% comfortable in doing what is required of you instead of being young and having the ego getting in the way.

 

[mdc]

I dunno maybe it's just that Dallas use their support a lot better but if Dirk has an off game I don't instantly think that Dallas are gone. I can't say the same for Rose.

That's more to do with the difference between Dirk and Rose. Rose, like Kobe, will shoot you out of a game when he's not playing well. Dirk won't. For example, Rose took 27 shots today, and made 8. The closest Dirk's ever come to that is a 7-for-25 game in 2005.

I also don't see much diff between Haywood and Asik or JJ and Gibson for what they bring to the side.

Asik and Gibson are both All-NBA quality defenders. Gibson's a bit undersized, but in a couple of years Asik has every chance to be better than Gortat, for example.

I think it was Mark Jackson saying it so I am loathe to agree but the Bulls have problems in that they can't play Korver and Boozer at the same time. Or Gibson and Noah. I don't see Dallas having that issue.

Not sure I agree with either. Looked up Korver-Boozer combos during the regular season and they're +79 over the season when those 2 play together.

Perhaps it all comes down to experience and in being 100% comfortable in doing what is required of you instead of being young and having the ego getting in the way.

I'm not much for the experience argument. I think in this case it's more just that Dirk's playing a lot better than Rose in these playoffs, and certain team-mates (namely the PGs) are pulling out playoff runs that no-one thought they had.

 

[Damon_3388]

Chicago has a good supporting cast but they all have massive problems with either under performing or just that their weaknesses are making them liabilities.

Boozer can't defend to save himself and it has allowed Bosh to have a career best series.

I don't see Noah as much of an upgrade on Chandler.

I dunno maybe it's just that Dallas use their support a lot better but if Dirk has an off game I don't instantly think that Dallas are gone. I can't say the same for Rose.

I also don't see much diff between Haywood and Asik or JJ and Gibson for what they bring to the side.

I think it was Mark Jackson saying it so I am loathe to agree but the Bulls have problems in that they can't play Korver and Boozer at the same time. Or Gibson and Noah. I don't see Dallas having that issue.

Perhaps it all comes down to experience and in being 100% comfortable in doing what is required of you instead of being young and having the ego getting in the way.

I think it might be a bit to do with Dallas being a more veteran team, with a number of players who have had their individual success, and are now happy to just play a role if it means winning a championship.

Of the Mavs' main rotation, only Chandler and Barea are under 30, and Chandler has still been in the league 9 years without getting past the second round of the playoffs (until now). Guys like Kidd, Terry, Stojakovic and Marion probably realise that this might be their last chance to win a championship, and are therefore happy to let Dirk be the star (and as stars go, he's seemingly one of the least ego-driven and greedy in history) and chip in wherever they can. Even your less celebrated guys like Brendan Haywood and Deshawn Stevenson, who've been merely average all their careers, are now in that 30+ age bracket where championships (especially if you've never won one) and legacy (especially when you've been a largely forgettable role player your entire career) mean more than money and shot attempts. Whether they realise it or not, some of the guys on the Chicago and OKC squads are seemingly just paying lip service to putting their egos aside for the good of the team, and aren't actually doing it wholeheartedly like the Mavs seem to have been so far these playoffs.

I'm now arguing the value of a good team rather than a bunch of stars, that one star and a bunch of players who know their role and are happy to do their share and not all have to "be a star" is better than just stacking talent up, and thus somewhat contradicting my earlier claims about the importance of Dirk not having another major star to play with for most of his career

 

[mdc]

I'm doing an Arts degree at uni (majoring in English, minoring in film), and never particularly liked maths at school.

Sports is really the only area that I have an active interest in stats and numbers, and it's strongly linked to my particular interest in football and basketball. If I was purely a stats nut, I'd probably be a massive baseball fan, because it is a goldmine for all sorts of whacky stats, but I really only have a moderate casual interest in that sport.

See Damon, the thing with taking an interest in stats and numbers is that you actually have to put in the work to understand stats and numbers, something you have manifestly failed to do.

What you do on this board is equivalent to me saying that I have an interest in English literature and then posting a gargantuan list of "Authors who have won a major literary award" as my contribution. Then posting another colossal list of "Publishing houses by number of books released" and so on. Those lists might have some slight relation to English literature, but they are in no way a discussion thereof; just like your repeated spewing forth of stat lists (which are readily available online) constitutes neither a discussion of basketball nor of statistics.

If I sound a bit unkind, it is because what you do only fosters hostility in readers who might otherwise be interested in statistics, but are turned off by walls of numbers. As someone who cares about sports statistics, and as someone who cares about communicating that they can be an aid to understanding sports, your posts are like a great big boot stomping on the work of people who actually use numbers prudently. I do wish ever so much that you'd stop, and instead spent some time learning the subtleties of the subject that you profess to be interested in.

 

[Damon_3388]

See Damon, the thing with taking an interest in stats and numbers is that you actually have to put in the work to understand stats and numbers, something you have manifestly failed to do.

What you do on this board is equivalent to me saying that I have an interest in English literature and then posting a gargantuan list of "Authors who have won a major literary award" as my contribution. Then posting another colossal list of "Publishing houses by number of books released" and so on. Those lists might have some slight relation to English literature, but they are in no way a discussion thereof; just like your repeated spewing forth of stat lists (which are readily available online) constitutes neither a discussion of basketball nor of statistics.

If I sound a bit unkind, it is because what you do only fosters hostility in readers who might otherwise be interested in statistics, but are turned off by walls of numbers. As someone who cares about sports statistics, and as someone who cares about communicating that they can be an aid to understanding sports, your posts are like a great big boot stomping on the work of people who actually use numbers prudently. I do wish ever so much that you'd stop, and instead spent some time learning the subtleties of the subject that you profess to be interested in.

I can see where you're coming from, and I understand and accept the points you've made. However, to be honest, I don't really care enough about the stats to spend greater amounts of time on them than what I already, as they are really just a secondary by-product of my interest in footy and basketball (which aren't things that rule my life to begin with). And with that being said, I'm happy to just keep all the numbers to myself in the future.

 

[peternorth]

I'm doing an Arts degree at uni (majoring in English, minoring in film), and never particularly liked maths at school.



Sports is really the only area that I have an active interest in stats and numbers, and it's strongly linked to my particular interest in football and basketball. If I was purely a stats nut, I'd probably be a massive baseball fan, because it is a goldmine for all sorts of whacky stats, but I really only have a moderate casual interest in that sport.

Ah, an arts student....after 3 years you'll have a BA - bachelor of attendance!

i also have one of those!

anyway brah, all good.

numbers are important in basketball, and life in general. we all have our quirkly loves. i love uniform numbers and have a knack of picturing players in their jerseys. for example when i think of no 50 i see matt bullard. dont ask why.

mate of mine loves fantasy nba, spends hours studying players, stats, records etc. believes his gods gift to bball knowledge. dont think he's got a girlfriend. or any female friends. would explain why. i reckon he's the next unabomber.

 

[Damon_3388]

Ah, an arts student....after 3 years you'll have a BA - bachelor of attendance!

i also have one of those!

I love it when "the adults" (say, anyone over 40) asks me what my degree actually involves, or what I'm going to do with it once I've finished, because it's anopportunity to see how good a used car salesman you can be, and test how well you're able to spin things to create an illusion you're doing something of value with you're life. It really is a bullshit degree

mate of mine loves fantasy nba, spends hours studying players, stats, records etc. believes his gods gift to bball knowledge. dont think he's got a girlfriend. or any female friends. would explain why. i reckon he's the next unabomber.

I'm not really into fantasy stuff myself these days. Payed AFL Dream Team from 2004-2010, but I found that even with a fair bit of reading/analysis, I was doing pretty poorly (was ranked between 10-and 20,000), and it was became a bit of a chore to keep track of last year, so I didn't bother this time around. It's scary to think about the amount of time some of the better fantasy sport players must put into it

 

[Brad Goodman]

See Damon, the thing with taking an interest in stats and numbers is that you actually have to put in the work to understand stats and numbers, something you have manifestly failed to do.

What you do on this board is equivalent to me saying that I have an interest in English literature and then posting a gargantuan list of "Authors who have won a major literary award" as my contribution. Then posting another colossal list of "Publishing houses by number of books released" and so on. Those lists might have some slight relation to English literature, but they are in no way a discussion thereof; just like your repeated spewing forth of stat lists (which are readily available online) constitutes neither a discussion of basketball nor of statistics.

If I sound a bit unkind, it is because what you do only fosters hostility in readers who might otherwise be interested in statistics, but are turned off by walls of numbers. As someone who cares about sports statistics, and as someone who cares about communicating that they can be an aid to understanding sports, your posts are like a great big boot stomping on the work of people who actually use numbers prudently. I do wish ever so much that you'd stop, and instead spent some time learning the subtleties of the subject that you profess to be interested in.

Now that's what I call a passion for stats (if such a thing can/should exist).

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Ah, an arts student....after 3 years you'll have a BA - bachelor of attendance!

i also have one of those!

anyway brah, all good.

Best graffiti I ever saw on the toilet wall at uni. It was written on the toilet paper holder and said "Here, take an arts degree".

 

[peternorth]

Best graffiti I ever saw on the toilet wall at uni. It was written on the toilet paper holder and said "Here, take an arts degree".

you need one of those to become a professional protester

 

[lionel_luthor]

The issue for the Bulls and Thundet is youth and lack of playoff experience compared to more seasoned opponents. Jordan didn't win a ring till he was 30 and Isiah had to contend with several years of Pistons failures in the playoffs before he won his rings.

When Duncan won his first ring, he had the luxury of having the admiral and several other seasoned pros.

History in the last 20 years shows such that young teams do not win rings, but Dirk is seizing the moment now.

 

[Borgsta]

Jordan wasn't 30 and Durants horrible shot wasn't due to a lack of experience it is what he has done all season long on game winners.

 

[Byron_Clanger]

Top 10 all time? No, Best Euro ever? Quite possibly

 

[Stan Darsh]

Top 10 all time? No, Best Euro ever? Quite possibly

Apparently Sabonis had even longer range than Dirk before going to the Blazers, (lots of myths surrounding him) and could actually grab a board!

Hakeem
MJ
Magic
Bird
Russell
Shaq
Tiimmy
Wilt
Oscar
Moses
West

I made that list in about 15 seconds too. Dirk is definitely in my underrated camp though, but nowhere near top 10. Wade >>> Nowitzki.

 

[Hodgepodge]

He's unstoppable on his day.

 

[Borgsta]

Apparently Sabonis had even longer range than Dirk before going to the Blazers, (lots of myths surrounding him) and could actually grab a board!
.

Lots of videos too. Highly recommend putting Sabonis into youtube and enjoying the videos.

 

[PP34]

This Dirk love has gone too far. He's not even better than KG and Timmy D all time yet alone in the top ten. He'd be 20-35

 

[lionel_luthor]

The only Euro player I'd have as equal to Dirk was Drazen Petrovic who was tragically killed before his prime.

Drazen was an unbelievable player who was on the verge of all star regular status when he was killed in 93.

Toni Kukoc was an arrogant flog and I don't like him

 

[cold_as_ice]

The only Euro player I'd have as equal to Dirk was Drazen Petrovic who was tragically killed before his prime.

Drazen was an unbelievable player who was on the verge of all star regular status when he was killed in 93.

Toni Kukoc was an arrogant flog and I don't like him

This

Drazen Petrovic is another athlete that falls under 'could have been anything'.

One of, if not the best shooting strokes i've ever seen, but due to his tragic death so early in his career and the lack of Euro superstars in the NBA over the years, you'd have to go with Dirk.

 

[WALL-e]

Ricky Rubio

 

[Surkin]

Dirk might have gone up a spot or two today.