Is the MCG a big advantage on Grand Final Day for Victorians against Interstate Sides? /Are Interstaters advantaged during the home and away season?

[beerbandit]

Its obviously harder for interstate teams on a ground they are not as familiar with as the Vic clubs, but in saying that there is nothing to lose on GF day so that does take an element of that away.

All in all though this years is kind of irrelevant in a sense that Collingwood were minor premiers and did win the 2 finals needed to advance to the GF, so they were the #1 seed therefore irrespective of where you think the game should be played they did deserve the GF this year on the MCG.

 

[beerbandit]

So you'd agree that Collingwood playing 14 games and having the opportunity to host "away" finals vs Marvel tenants and Geelong receive the best deal? Like Richmond, any time they are relevant they have MASSIVE supporter bases too. Ask Geelong fans about their home final vs Richmond in 2017. It was an away game, there's no two ways about it. I can't remember a Geelong game at the MCG against a primary tenant that felt like a home game. Likewise if Bulldogs, St Kilda etc were hosting Richmond and Collingwood at the G. It's self explanatory that the home/away advtantage has flipped compared to hosting Richmond/Collingwood at Marvel/GMHBA,

The only clubs this is ambiguous for are Carlton and Essendon, and maybe Hawthorn (because of Launceston) who operate in a kind of purgatory where almost every Melbourne based game could be considered neutral - or at least in the neutral ballpark.

I don’t know the facts here Meow, this is purely a question.

Do Geelong prefer playing Collingwood at the MCG as a home team for the potential of 80k + and the $$ that generates the football club as opposed to playing them down at the cattery for a more likely 4 points or is this AFL driven?

I understand that it obviously wouldn’t feel like a home game against the Pies at the G due to the sheer size of the Collingwood supporter base.

 

[Mr Meow]

I don’t know the facts here Meow, this is purely a question.

Do Geelong prefer playing Collingwood at the MCG as a home team for the potential of 80k + and the $$ that generates the football club as opposed to playing them down at the cattery for a more likely 4 points or is this AFL driven?

I understand that it obviously wouldn’t feel like a home game against the Pies at the G due to the sheer size of the Collingwood supporter base.

That's for commercial/logistical reasons and I have no actual complaints about how it all fits into the wider perspective.

The question in this thread is more of a theoretical one. Are MCG tenants advantaged from a sporting perspective when "neutral" games are hosted at their ground. I know it's not Collingwood pulling the levers. It's just odd when some fans try and dress it up differently, which appears to be much closer to "what position are my club in? How can I defend that" - rather than looking at the issue in purely hypothetical terms.

 

[doppleganger]

So you'd agree that Collingwood playing 14 games and having the opportunity to host "away" finals vs Marvel tenants and Geelong receive the best deal?

Read the thread...finals are seperate.

The Marvel tenants are dudded most comes finals as they have least exposure and familiarity at the G.

Like Richmond, any time they are relevant they have MASSIVE supporter bases too. Ask Geelong fans about their home final vs Richmond in 2017. It was an away game, there's no two ways about it.

It is a home state final. Finals ticketing access is shared equally between club members. Play that at CatPark and Tigers would still have outnumbered the Cats and booed when you ran out.

I can't remember a Geelong game at the MCG against a primary tenant that felt like a home game.

Well of course not, because the Geelong home game feel is at a small stadium where Geelong have 95% crowd support at a unique sized ground.

I remember games at VicPark, Collingwood enjoyed the Geelong true home ground feel where we had 95% crowd support at our ground.

The MCG doesn't bring those same feelings, by design because it is a 100k seat stadium, where both sets of supporters can come along.

The MCG has killed the true home game / true away game.

When you have 7 clubs who play 6 or more games at a venue, the players are all familiar with the ground, and fans are able to go and watch...the key components of the advantage are reduced.

The only clubs this is ambiguous for are Carlton and Essendon, and maybe Hawthorn (because of Launceston) who operate in a kind of purgatory where almost every Melbourne based game could be considered neutral - or at least in the neutral ballpark.

Na, there are 7 clubs who call the MCG home and play 6 or more games at the ground.

Contests between these teams are obviously not "true" home advantage and "true" away disadvantage games, they are effectively neutral games where advantage is minimal.

You continually deliberately ignore ground familiarity and crowd support, the biggest factors in any advantage / disadvantage.

So yes, keep up your Geelong their 6th MCG game at the G against Hawthorn is the equivalent disadvantage to your single game at the GABBA each year.

 

[Randomizor]

The kind of data you need for the grand final question doesn’t exist. You’d need MCG tenants to play grand finals at a non-Vic home ground. That will never happen and so this debate will continue.

 

[Mr Meow]

Read the thread...finals are seperate.

The Marvel tenants are dudded most comes finals as they have least exposure and familiarity at the G.

It is a home state final. Finals ticketing access is shared equally between club members. Play that at CatPark and Tigers would still have outnumbered the Cats and booed when you ran out.

Well of course not, because the Geelong home game feel is at a small stadium where Geelong have 95% crowd support at a unique sized ground.

I remember games at VicPark, Collingwood enjoyed the Geelong true home ground feel where we had 95% crowd support at our ground.

The MCG doesn't bring those same feelings, by design because it is a 100k seat stadium, where both sets of supporters can come along.

The MCG has killed the true home game / true away game.

When you have 7 clubs who play 6 or more games at a venue, the players are all familiar with the ground, and fans are able to go and watch...the key components of the advantage are reduced.

Na, there are 7 clubs who call the MCG home and play 6 or more games at the ground.

Contests between these teams are obviously not "true" home advantage and "true" away disadvantage games, they are effectively neutral games where advantage is minimal.

You continually deliberately ignore ground familiarity and crowd support, the biggest factors in any advantage / disadvantage.

So yes, keep up your Geelong their 6th MCG game at the G against Hawthorn is the equivalent disadvantage to your single game at the GABBA each year.

I know how finals are allocated and I realise Collingwood and Richmond aren't some big evil corporations making things unfair for everybody.

I just know that is the deal I would prefer most. Then Geelong, then interstate sides, then Marvel tenants. It's fine if you think another system would be more beneficial than Collingwood, who maybe belong last on your list. They and Richmond are first for mine, Melbourne less for lack of an "army", then Hawthorn, then Geelong/Cartlon/Essendon, then the interstate sides and then the Marvel primary tenants.

Why don't I have Geelong last, given they don't host genuine home finals and often in fact "host" an MCG tenant at their home ground - both in H&A and finals? Well, the strong home ground advantage for 9 games (similar to an interstate side) with a couple less traded in for MCG experience. Which is about the same end result. I realise that element. It just doesn't put them into 1st place. It puts them in the rung between the MCG tenants and the true Marvel/interstate sides.

 

[beerbandit]

In all honesty I think if next years GF was between Adelaide and GWS we would still be sitting here whinging about who had to travel further.

The only real fair way for deciders is to have it seeded and the #1 seed gets it on there home ground.

Pies #1 seed this year so 2023 shouldn’t really need to be discussed.

 

[Swanssince91]

In all honesty I think if next years GF was between Adelaide and GWS we would still be sitting here whinging about who had to travel further.

The only real fair way for deciders is to have it seeded and the #1 seed gets it on there home ground.

Pies #1 seed this year so 2023 shouldn’t really need to be discussed.

No we wouldn't

 

[doppleganger]

I know how finals are allocated and I realise Collingwood and Richmond aren't some big evil corporations making things unfair for everybody.

I just know that is the deal I would prefer most.

For finals yeah.

But the thread also looks to H&A and which teams have it better.

During H&A the teams who play the most "true" home games are advantaged most.

Why don't I have Geelong last, given they don't host genuine home finals and often in fact "host" an MCG tenant at their home ground - both in H&A and finals? Well, the strong home ground advantage for 9 games (similar to an interstate side) with a couple less traded in for MCG experience. Which is about the same end result. I realise that element. It just doesn't put them into 1st place. It puts them in the rung between the MCG tenants and the true Marvel/interstate sides.

You need to seperate H&A. That is the part of the season where you are competing for home finals.

During H&A the teams that have the biggest differential between true home games and away games wins out. And that is the non-Melbourne based teams.

They get 11, 10 or 9 true home ground advantage games.

But then when playing away, they build up familiarity at venues or face a Melbourne team at a non-preferred ground...meaning they don't experience a true away ground disadvantage.

And yes, you have repeatedly detailed that you think Geelong playing their 6th game at the G against a team who only plays 8 games themselves is a true away disadvantage game...so of course you think Geelong have it tough.

The reality is those games are 1/10 for advantage / disadvantage compared to true home advantage which is 10/10.

 

[Mr Meow]

For finals yeah.

But the thread also looks to H&A and which teams have it better.

During H&A the teams who play the most "true" home games are advantaged most.

You need to seperate H&A. That is the part of the season where you are competing for home finals.

During H&A the teams that have the biggest differential between true home games and away games wins out. And that is the non-Melbourne based teams.

They get 11, 10 or 9 true home ground advantage games.

But then when playing away, they build up familiarity at venues or face a Melbourne team at a non-preferred ground...meaning they don't experience a true away ground disadvantage.

And yes, you have repeatedly detailed that you think Geelong playing their 6th game at the G against a team who only plays 8 games themselves is a true away disadvantage game...so of course you think Geelong have it tough.

The reality is those games are 1/10 for advantage / disadvantage compared to true home advantage which is 10/10.

Wrong and disingenuous. I only did this because you wouldn't accept my initial assertion that out of Collingwood and Essendon:

a) Essendon face greater advantage at Marvel. Collingwood play 2/3 games at Marvel and 14 games at the G. Essendon are close to 50/50. Therefore, a Marvel game is a MUCH bigger advantage to Essendon in this scenario.

and

b) Collingwood face greater advantage at the MCG. For the same reasons as above.

I would agree that Essendon and Carlton are somewhat neutral against Geelong at the G but ONLY if you accept that Collingwood would rather play those sides at the G as opposed to the venue where Essendon, Geelong and Carlton host most of its true home advantage games. It is therefore a BIG difference in advantage when Collingwood get to "host" those sides at the G as an away side.

And yes I am talking about whole seasons that include finals. It becomes more nuanced for H&A so apologies on that front. If the season ended at round 22/23/24 I agree that Geelong's ride would be considered better than at it at the end of GF day. But 11 true home games would still give a greater W/L advantage for the season.

 

[doppleganger]

Wrong and disingenuous. I only did this because you wouldn't accept my initial assertion that out of Collingwood and Essendon:

Na you have said it repeatedly because you have a weird take that ignores ground familiarity and crowd support, the two key factors that provide the advantage.

a) Essendon face greater advantage at Marvel. Collingwood play 2/3 games at Marvel and 14 games at the G. Essendon are close to 50/50. Therefore, a Marvel game is a MUCH bigger advantage to Essendon in this scenario.

and

b) Collingwood face greater advantage at the MCG. For the same reasons as above.

Yes, Essendon and Carlton by not having a home and instead being co-tenants are in the worst possible position during H&A.

They play Marvel tenants at Marvel (a minor familiarity disadvantage) and MCG tenants at the MCG (again a minor familiarity disadvantage).

None are true home games or true away they are just a glut of neutral games.

And then when they play a non-vic club at Marvel it can often be 8 games to their opponent who plays 4 games at the Marvel...again a watered down advantage compared to what Geelong and Brisbane enjoy in their true home ground advantage games when their opponents only ever play at once each year.

I would agree that Essendon and Carlton are somewhat neutral against Geelong at the G but ONLY if you accept that Collingwood would rather play those sides at the G as opposed to the venue where Essendon, Geelong and Carlton host most of its true home advantage games.

Accept what?
Essendon, Carlton, Hawthorn and Geelong all want the 85-95k crowd against Collingwood at the G.

Essendon dont want to play ANZAC day at Marvel, Carlton dont want to open they season against Richmond at Marvel. Hawthorn dont want to play us in Tassie.

They are neutral games at the G between two teams who are very familiar with the venue, and crowds are more like 60-40 instead of 95-5 like at a CatPark and where one team is unfamiliar, which is your true home ground advantage game.

It is therefore a BIG difference in advantage when Collingwood get to "host" those sides at the G as an away side.

It aint a big difference, as it is just a neutral game.

Just like in our home game we receive no real advantage when playing those teams, when away we face no real disadvantage.

And yes I am talking about whole seasons that include finals.

You keep adding Geelong not getting home finals to any H&A assessment.

They are seperate matters.
The glorious H&A fixture the Cats enjoy often sees them finish high enough on H&A ladder to get a "home" final.

It becomes more nuanced for H&A so apologies on that front.

Yeah as any comparison of advantage is nuanced and needs to consider the actual advantage / disadvantage aspects.

Pretty obvious that playing a game at a venue where you enjoy 95% crowd support and the opponent hasnt played before is a bigger advantage than a team playing an opponent who is familiar with a venue (6 games) and crowd support is more like 60-40.

If the season ended at round 22/23/24 I agree that Geelong's ride would be considered better than at it at the end of GF day. But 11 true home games would still give a greater W/L advantage for the season.

Of course, that is why teams who enjoy the most true home ground advantage games have it best during H&A.

But why Geelong have it better, is that they have 9 true home ground advantage games...but then have 6 neutral games at your home away from home and like Melbourne based teams, you rarely have to jump on a plane and travel for an away game.

Geelong enjoy the best of both worlds, during H&A.

Meanwhile Melbourne teams get what 3-4 true advantage games if they are lucky (where their opponent has played just 1 or 2 games at the venue).

 

[Mr Meow]

Na you have said it repeatedly because you have a weird take that ignores ground familiarity and crowd support, the two key factors that provide the advantage.

Yes, Essendon and Carlton by not having a home and instead being co-tenants are in the worst possible position during H&A.

They play Marvel tenants at Marvel (a minor familiarity disadvantage) and MCG tenants at the MCG (again a minor familiarity disadvantage).

None are true home games or true away they are just a glut of neutral games.

And then when they play a non-vic club at Marvel it can often be 8 games to their opponent who plays 4 games at the Marvel...again a watered down advantage compared to what Geelong and Brisbane enjoy in their true home ground advantage games when their opponents only ever play at once each year.

Accept what?
Essendon, Carlton, Hawthorn and Geelong all want the 85-95k crowd against Collingwood at the G.

Essendon dont want to play ANZAC day at Marvel, Carlton dont want to open they season against Richmond at Marvel. Hawthorn dont want to play us in Tassie.

They are neutral games at the G between two teams who are very familiar with the venue, and crowds are more like 60-40 instead of 95-5 like at a CatPark and where one team is unfamiliar, which is your true home ground advantage game.

It aint a big difference, as it is just a neutral game.

Just like in our home game we receive no real advantage when playing those teams, when away we face no real disadvantage.

You keep adding Geelong not getting home finals to any H&A assessment.

They are seperate matters.
The glorious H&A fixture the Cats enjoy often sees them finish high enough on H&A ladder to get a "home" final.

Yeah as any comparison of advantage is nuanced and needs to consider the actual advantage / disadvantage aspects.

Pretty obvious that playing a game at a venue where you enjoy 95% crowd support and the opponent hasnt played before is a bigger advantage than a team playing an opponent who is familiar with a venue (6 games) and crowd support is more like 60-40.

Of course, that is why teams who enjoy the most true home ground advantage games have it best during H&A.

But why Geelong have it better, is that they have 9 true home ground advantage games...but then have 6 neutral games at your home away from home and like Melbourne based teams, you rarely have to jump on a plane and travel for an away game.

Geelong enjoy the best of both worlds, during H&A.

Meanwhile Melbourne teams get what 3-4 true advantage games if they are lucky (where their opponent has played just 1 or 2 games at the venue).

If you call my take "weird" again, I will consider leaving this conversation.

I also agree that Essendon and Carlton are in a weird purgatory for H&A where actually most of their games are neutral. I still think (forget crowd TOTAL for a second, pretend it could happen) that Carlton hosting Collingwood at Marvel would benefit its projected WL ratio. That's all I'm saying. They host at a venue their opponent plays a whopping 14 games at.

The Cats support usually amounts to the same noise as a group of 12 grandmas knitting, unless the umpiring has taken a controversial turn. Collingwood and Richmond at the G in their pomp are mightily impressive and the support commendable. I love it, but it's different to sleepy old Cat Park.

The 6 home and away games you call neutral though....they are (at best) neutral if Essendon and Carlton host them, but not the other Melbourne based teams. We'd rather play those at GMHBA unless it was for logistic /commercial purposes. Collingwood, Melbourne, Richmond and Hawthorn.

 

[doppleganger]

If you call my take "weird" again, I will consider leaving this conversation.

You continue to ignore ground familiarity and crowd support, two of the most important parts of any advantage.

I also agree that Essendon and Carlton are in a weird purgatory for H&A where actually most of their games are neutral. I still think (forget crowd TOTAL for a second, pretend it could happen) that Carlton hosting Collingwood at Marvel would benefit its projected WL ratio. That's all I'm saying. They host at a venue their opponent plays a whopping 14 games at.

Yeah, it isnt surprising that those teams have been awful for two decades, they have no home anymore. They are co-tenant floaters.

The Cats support usually amounts to the same noise as a group of 12 grandmas knitting, unless the umpiring has taken a controversial turn.

Similar to an Adelaide crowd.

The 6 home and away games you call neutral though....they are (at best) neutral if Essendon and Carlton host them, but not the other Melbourne based teams. We'd rather play those at GMHBA unless it was for logistic /commercial purposes. Collingwood, Melbourne, Richmond and Hawthorn.

Geelong alternate who is the "home" team on Easter Monday and in the country game against Essendon. They are both neutral games.

Sure you would rather them be at CatPark for more advantage, but Essendon would say the same re playing at Marvel and Hawks in Tassie. Neutral games at the G between teams with similar ground familiarity max just 1.5X where both sets of fans can roll up in their 10s of thousands.

You then have have one home game against either of Collingwood or Richmond. This is like the home game that used to be at Waverley or the MCG in the 70s and 80s.

You then play 3-4 "away" games at the G, bringing the games played at the G up to 5-6 each year. Those "away" games aren't true away disadvantage games as your players are very familiar at the G, and the crowd is not 95% against Geelong...they are neutral games.

 

[beerbandit]

You continue to ignore ground familiarity and crowd support, two of the most important parts of any advantage.

Yeah, it isnt surprising that those teams have been awful for two decades, they have no home anymore. They are co-tenant floaters.

Similar to an Adelaide crowd.

Geelong alternate who is the "home" team on Easter Monday and in the country game against Essendon. They are both neutral games.

Sure you would rather them be at CatPark for more advantage, but Essendon would say the same re playing at Marvel and Hawks in Tassie. Neutral games at the G between teams with similar ground familiarity max just 1.5X where both sets of fans can roll up in their 10s of thousands.

You then have have one home game against either of Collingwood or Richmond. This is like the home game that used to be at Waverley or the MCG in the 70s and 80s.

You then play 3-4 "away" games at the G, bringing the games played at the G up to 5-6 each year. Those "away" games aren't true away disadvantage games as your players are very familiar at the G, and the crowd is not 95% against Geelong...they are neutral games.

Spot on