Is this Richmond side as good as Geelong 07-11?

[4THAWN]

Floss is a gun. Criminally underrated, imo

Assuming you're talking about Vlaustin?

Definitely has his days where he can borderline dominate down back, but from an outsiders perspective he is not always super noticeable in his influence on games. For comparison almost every game I watch of the Tiges, Dylan Grimes and Bachar Houli are playing good-great games.

 

[Mr Magic]

It's exactly choosing between talent and hard work.

In terms of talent, no. Geelong 2007-11 had so much talent on every line and most of them bar a few would have been in the top 5-6 in their respective positions in the league. They were so skilled and tore every side apart. Johnson, Chapman, Gaz, Selwood, Bartel, Ottens, Enright, Stokes, Corey, Mackie, Wojcinksi, Kelly, Milburn etc.

We don't have the luxury of having that. We have some highly skilled players like Jack, Lynch, Cotchin, Martin, Prestia, Edwards, Rioli etc, but they are offset by players who don't have as much skill, but make up for it with hard work, hunger, determination etc such as Graham, Lambert, Castagna, Broad, Astbury.

I think Geelong 2007-11 were one of the best teams I have ever seen (which pains me to say it), and they won 3 flags in 5 years. They are still ahead for now. If we can jag another flag in the next couple of years, I would almost have to say we are on par, or better than the Cats given the upper echelon of talent you guys had compared to us.

So for now, No. Geelong is still a better side. But I feel the gap is getting smaller and smaller. Especially with the competition getting so much more even.

Geelong should have won 6 premierships on the trot

 

[Grockadoc]

Geelong should have won 6 premierships on the trot

Underachieved with the list they had imo.

 

[juss]

Sadly in 2020 we will probably be robbed of the opportunity to go one better.

 

[eth-dog]

Geelong should have won 6 premierships on the trot

What a ridiculous statement. The closest any side got to that was when Melbourne won 5 in 6 years in the 50's.

 

[Gibbke]

Were Hawthorn that good on paper though?
Hawthorn had 7 AA's in Hodge, Mitchell, Birchall, Rioli, Roughead, Lewis, Gibson, Franklin as AA,s plus 2 thereabouts (made squad) in Gunston and Burgoyne

Richmond have 8 AAs: Cotchin, Dusty, Rance, Riewoldt, Houli, Grimes, Lynch, Edwards, plus 3 thereabouts (made squad) in Prestia, Caddy, Lambert.

Brisbane had 8 AAs (Voss, Aker, Black, Brown, Power, Lappin, Johnson, Leppitsch), plus several who must have been the squad, like Lynch, Michael, White, Pike, maybe Hart.

Geelong had 17 AAs (Scarlett, Milburn, Enright, Ling, Ablett, Selwood, Chapman, Johnson, Harley, Mooney, Corey, Bartel, Egan, Kelly, Taylor, Hawkins, Mackie). Enough said.

I think Hawthorn were a bit lucky to jag 4 flags. As Danny Frawley said after the 3-peat, there's an asterisk there because the expansion teams entering the comp diluted draft picks for teams on the up during the period of Hawthorn's dominance, making it easier for the Hawks to stay on top. And they were quite lucky that their core senior players' bodies held up so that they continued to play top footy well into their 30s, which is extremely unusual. Let's not forget they had players like Ryan Schoenmakers and Spanger as part of their premiership teams. That Hawthorn team were in the right place at the right time. I think they are actually at a more similar level to dual premiers like West Coast and North Melbourne in the 90s, and Richmond are in the same bracket. Geelong and Brisbane different level of course.

First half sure, said as much earlier.

Second half, hell no. Frawley, god rest his soul, was utterly wrong on this occasion. The Hawks had already sewn up their flag side youngsters, the core guns came from 2001 and 2005, and they recruited experienced players from other sides whose movement had nothing to do with GWS or the GC. We also had the deep end of the draft. The real statement you should be making is how players like Schoey and Spangher had such important roles in those GF's they did play. You should also delve deep into all four flags and ascertain how they got over the line if they were so lucky - they beat the best non-winner of all time in 2008, they outcoached a coach who'd been outcoaching other coaches unstoppably to the point where Freo was a favourite in the eyes of many in 2013, the 2014 season deserves a Bollywood movie, and the 2015 finals series was an amazing effort from a team who could have either faded away or pulled out reserves of experience and beaten the odds. Those flags were an awesome little triumvirate, and 2008 was a gift bestowed by the gods who didn't like Geelong either. The Cats, Swans, Dockers and Eagles were pretty good teams alongside these years, the first two classed as dynasties.

Clarkson - GOAT.

 

[RichLeMonde]

First half sure, said as much earlier.

Second half, hell no. Frawley, god rest his soul, was utterly wrong on this occasion. The Hawks had already sewn up their flag side youngsters, the core guns came from 2001 and 2005, and they recruited experienced players from other sides whose movement had nothing to do with GWS or the GC. We also had the deep end of the draft. The real statement you should be making is how players like Schoey and Spangher had such important roles in those GF's they did play. You should also delve deep into all four flags and ascertain how they got over the line if they were so lucky - they beat the best non-winner of all time in 2008, they outcoached a coach who'd been outcoaching other coaches unstoppably to the point where Freo was a favourite in the eyes of many in 2013, the 2014 season deserves a Bollywood movie, and the 2015 finals series was an amazing effort from a team who could have either faded away or pulled out reserves of experience and beaten the odds. Those flags were an awesome little triumvirate, and 2008 was a gift bestowed by the gods who didn't like Geelong either. The Cats, Swans, Dockers and Eagles were pretty good teams alongside these years, the first two classed as dynasties.

Clarkson - GOAT.

I don't mean lucky on the day. I mean lucky in terms of the circumstances.

I think Frawley was making a slightly different point. He was saying that teams on the march up the ladder around the time GWS and GC entered, who would have benefited from decent draft picks in the 8-15 range, instead got donuts. So teams that would have been topping up already strong, developing lists with some decent draft picks for a couple of years, which would have helped them challenge the Hawks, instead couldnt' keep improving at the same rate as would normally happen when there were no expansion teams. Yes the Hawks had the deep end of the draft in those years, but it didn't matter because you were contending at the pointy end of the ladder, so it didn't affect you as much as it affected teams on the rise but still close to the middle of the table (like Freo who finished 7th in 2012). That is one part of the luck.

The other thing that makes their wins 'lucky' was that in 2014-2015 much of their core group was >30 years old. In 2014 Mitchell was 31, Hodge was 30, Burgoyne was 31, Lake was 32, and a year older in 2015. That is incredibly unusual. You could argue that it is not luck; it is good player management, but luck plays a part. Without that incredibly unusual situation, the Hawks would not have won their last 2 flags. The old boys being able to get the job done was also helped by the rest of the comp being particularly diluted by 2015, with the massive round of draft picks that went to GSW and GC beginning in 2012. Lots of those players had, by 2015, turned into very good 3rd year players, who in normal circumstances would have been distributed throughout the rest of the league's lists. The 2013 GF was the worst standard GF I have seen, watching every one since 1985. Fremantle finished top of the ladder but their percentage (often the best indicator of performance) was lower than the teams finishing 2-5th. The 2014 GF was a memorable and worthy win against a fine opponent (though not a dynasty, they won 1 flag). The 2015 GF was against a team who were not yet at their peak (and who were 5th in 2012, so would have benefited from having a 3rd year pick 12 if not for GWS and GC.

Obviously you can't really knock results, but I still think, for a couple of reasons, the Hawks were lucky to jag those final 2 flags, although of course they deserve credit for doing all the right things in the circumstances they found themselves in.

But yes, Clarko = GOAT

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Had to say it, but they are better

 

[Wallaby]

Geelong by a huge margin. One of the best teams I’ve ever seen, containing some of the best players of all time: Ablett, Scarlett, Enright, Bartel etc.

They also dominated an era with a number of strong teams: Hawthorn, St Kilda, Collingwood and the Bulldogs. Richmond are dominating in an era where there aren’t any very strong teams to rival them. Both of their Grand Finals victories came against sides that were comfortably weaker than them, and at their home ground. Adelaide haven’t made the finals since, to show their overall quality.

Not even at a contest.

Sorry - strong era? Geelong beat Port in 2007 - who then missed the finals the next 5 years. They had also missed the finals in 2006. Port 2007 were imposters.
Hawthorn jagged a flag in 08 - they followed that up by missing the finals the following year and scraped in in 2010 to be thumped by Freo. They weren't a strong premier at all. The bulldogs never really threatened the top sides in any year. There's always teams in the top spots, but really, St Kilda and Collingwood were only threatening for a couple of years each (and they both beat Geelong in the 2010 finals).

You talk about talent - this current Richmond side has 2x Brownlow medallists (same as Geelong), they had a Key Defender who is the only one in the argument with Scarlett as to the best KPD of the 2000s, Grimes is rated the best defender in the game the last 2 years, and Richmond have a 3-time Coleman medallist in the forward line (and as he is slowing down - if you can say that after he kicked 5 in the '19 GF - they have added the guy who is probably the #1 Key forward in the comp).
You could probably argue that Geelongs midfield was better than Richmond's, but Richmond's forward line is better. Defence - eeeehhhh (fight, fight!).
Geelong dominated the competition from early 2007 through 2008. They were nearly unbeatable - up until they had a bad day in the 2008 GF. Richmond started a bit later - they hit their peak form from midway 2017, and then dominated the comp - up until they had a bad day in the 2018 Prelim. They then finished equal top in 2019 (3rd on %age) and swept the finals in 2019. Geelong never finished the H&A season on top or even equal top from 2009-2011, but obviously they played well in the finals. They snuck through a couple of times - winning finals by just a couple of goals, and obviously lost 2 out of 3 in 2010. Richmond's closest final was 19pts.

But - until Damien Hardwick eats a sandwich during the game (like Bomber did at Subi one night) - you give it to Geelong because they won 3 and Richmond have only won 2. Geelong had 5 years where they were realistic challengers for the flag - Richmond have had 3. And Geelong's 2007-2008 was incredibly dominant - right up until.... you know. But there's not much in it, and both teams have a 'black day' in the finals against them. But the argument over 'strong era vs weak era' never stands up. Every fully-professional era is equally strong and equally hard to win.

 

[Freomaniac]

well the comparisions are scarily similar

 

[Catsnlakers]

Sorry - strong era? Geelong beat Port in 2007 - who then missed the finals the next 5 years. They had also missed the finals in 2006. Port 2007 were imposters.
Hawthorn jagged a flag in 08 - they followed that up by missing the finals the following year and scraped in in 2010 to be thumped by Freo. They weren't a strong premier at all. The bulldogs never really threatened the top sides in any year. There's always teams in the top spots, but really, St Kilda and Collingwood were only threatening for a couple of years each (and they both beat Geelong in the 2010 finals).

You talk about talent - this current Richmond side has 2x Brownlow medallists (same as Geelong), they had a Key Defender who is the only one in the argument with Scarlett as to the best KPD of the 2000s, Grimes is rated the best defender in the game the last 2 years, and Richmond have a 3-time Coleman medallist in the forward line (and as he is slowing down - if you can say that after he kicked 5 in the '19 GF - they have added the guy who is probably the #1 Key forward in the comp).
You could probably argue that Geelongs midfield was better than Richmond's, but Richmond's forward line is better. Defence - eeeehhhh (fight, fight!).
Geelong dominated the competition from early 2007 through 2008. They were nearly unbeatable - up until they had a bad day in the 2008 GF. Richmond started a bit later - they hit their peak form from midway 2017, and then dominated the comp - up until they had a bad day in the 2018 Prelim. They then finished equal top in 2019 (3rd on %age) and swept the finals in 2019. Geelong never finished the H&A season on top or even equal top from 2009-2011, but obviously they played well in the finals. They snuck through a couple of times - winning finals by just a couple of goals, and obviously lost 2 out of 3 in 2010. Richmond's closest final was 19pts.

But - until Damien Hardwick eats a sandwich during the game (like Bomber did at Subi one night) - you give it to Geelong because they won 3 and Richmond have only won 2. Geelong had 5 years where they were realistic challengers for the flag - Richmond have had 3. And Geelong's 2007-2008 was incredibly dominant - right up until.... you know. But there's not much in it, and both teams have a 'black day' in the finals against them. But the argument over 'strong era vs weak era' never stands up. Every fully-professional era is equally strong and equally hard to win.

I understand you’re a Tigers man & will look at things from your point of view....But your views about ‘ strong era vs weak era’ don’t hold up....There has been very few teams in the history of the 22 round season to go 20-2, & my club had to beat teams who achieved that in both 2009 & 2011 to win the flag....It is pretty self explanatory to suggest we had tougher opposition than a 17-5 Crows & a 13-9 Giants....I absolutely agree with your views about our 2007 premiership, we had very little competition, our biggest challenger come finals was a Pies team who didn’t make the top 4 & were playing youngsters ( Goldsack, Thomas, Rusling & Pendles ) & the poorest ruck duo you’re likely to see ( Bryan & Richards )....In the end a flag is a flag & should be celebrated, but there is no doubt times when there is harder competition than other times.

 

[My Tilly]

Fancy if Richmond had dank and the weapon though

Jack Graham would be running through walls

Geelong also played during a much stronger competition than anything Richmond's faced.
The introduction of Gold Coast and GWS significantly impacted the comp as most teams were able to bank on automatic 4 points every time they played one of those teams for the first few years.

Richmond just haven't had to face many quality opponents.
West Coast have been terrific but they are hardly a champion outfit. Sydney have regressed quite significantly since their last grand final appearance in 2016.

In fact, would last year's Richmond even beat St Kilda of 2009-2010?

 

[Lsta062]

Geelong also played during a much stronger competition than anything Richmond's faced.
The introduction of Gold Coast and GWS significantly impacted the comp as most teams were able to bank on automatic 4 points every time they played one of those teams for the first few years.

Richmond just haven't had to face many quality opponents.
West Coast have been terrific but they are hardly a champion outfit. Sydney have regressed quite significantly since their last grand final appearance in 2016.

In fact, would last year's Richmond even beat St Kilda of 2009-2010?

Consequentially, Richmond won Premierships in an era where the talent is spread over 18 clubs. Would Geelong be able to assemble a list like that under the current rules?

 

[Kwality]

Consequentially, Richmond won Premierships in an era where the talent is spread over 18 clubs. Would Geelong be able to assemble a list like that under the current rules?

2 flags in 3 years, what could convince any Richmond supporter (no other footy fan shares the foolishness) that they are on the same page as the Lions, the Hawks or the Cats.
My mob have won 2 in 3 years, Adelaide have won back to back.
Come back when you've got b2b GF appearances & even then you wont be approaching the top shelf.

The absolute arrogance of some Tiger fans (not many), its making their club looking foolish.
As for the suggestion there is something special about 2017 & 2019, I can tell you 2018 was great, not special

 

[Lsta062]

2 flags in 3 years, what could convince any Richmond supporter (no other footy fan shares the foolishness) that they are on the same page as the Lions, the Hawks or the Cats.
My mob have won 2 in 3 years, Adelaide have won back to back.
Come back when you've got b2b GF appearances & even then you wont be approaching the top shelf.

The absolute arrogance of some Tiger fans (not many), its making their club looking foolish.
As for the suggestion there is something special about 2017 & 2019, I can tell you 2018 was great, not special

Not once did I say that we are on the same page as Geelong, so I don’t know why you’re quoting me in your rant.

 

[HTT]

Geelong also played during a much stronger competition than anything Richmond's faced.
The introduction of Gold Coast and GWS significantly impacted the comp as most teams were able to bank on automatic 4 points every time they played one of those teams for the first few years.

Richmond just haven't had to face many quality opponents.
West Coast have been terrific but they are hardly a champion outfit. Sydney have regressed quite significantly since their last grand final appearance in 2016.

In fact, would last year's Richmond even beat St Kilda of 2009-2010?

We all watched that game last Friday night

Richmond comfortably.

Cats era still better unless we jag a 3rd flag though, I’ll agree.

 

[Kwality]

Not once did I say that we are on the same page as Geelong, so I don’t know why you’re quoting me in your rant.

Did you not pose the question? Good to see you arent asking the question now.

 

[My Tilly]

We all watched that game last Friday night

Richmond comfortably.

I think if you played St Kilda of 2009 best of three, Saints 2-1.
Hayes, Baker, Dal Santo, Ball, Montagna, Goddard not to menion vastly superior rucks of McEvoy/Gardiner, they would be too dominant against Richmond's mids.
Richmond have a better backline, particularly with Rance but then again, Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Milne, Schneider were the equal of Riewoldt, Lynch, Rioli, Castagna.

 

[Lsta062]

Did you not pose the question? Good to see you arent asking the question now.

No? I was talking about whether Geelong would have the list they had in 2007-2011 if they were in an 18-team competition like Richmond are now. Doesn’t mean that I was insinuating that we were equal to the Geelong team of 2007-2011.


In fact, I clarified my position on this in the 3rd post of this thread, which was:

Geelong destroyed the competition in 2007-2011. Richmond are dominant, but they were definitely not as dominant as Geelong were.

Just look at the win-loss record and percentage at the end of the home and away season and you’ll see where Geelong were at.

The thread would turn interesting if Richmond goes back-to-back this year though. Geelong won 3 Premierships in 5 years whereas Richmond would’ve won 3 Premierships in 4 years.

 

[eth-dog]

We all watched that game last Friday night

Richmond comfortably.

Cats era still better unless we jag a 3rd flag though, I’ll agree.

Not comfortably. They'd be in it without a doubt but they wouldn't beat that St. Kilda side "comfortably".

I think if you played St Kilda of 2009 best of three, Saints 2-1.
Hayes, Baker, Dal Santo, Ball, Montagna, Goddard not to menion vastly superior rucks of McEvoy/Gardiner, they would be too dominant against Richmond's mids.
Richmond have a better backline, particularly with Rance but then again, Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Milne, Schneider were the equal of Riewoldt, Lynch, Rioli, Castagna.

I never understood the idea of comparing defence vs defence and forward line vs forward line. The Richmond defenders would play on the St. Kilda forwards and vice-versa, why not compare them?

 

[KissKiss]

Sadly in 2020 we will probably be robbed of the opportunity to go one better.

Potentially kills the chance if they dont get on the park this year. And even if they do manage to get a GF winner it will always have a *. No-ones fault but it will.

There's still the chance to equal Geelong in 21, but you do start to think the age and motivation will become a factor for Richmond then. I think a few will be well into the 30's by then and might drop away. (Or will the year off refresh a few bodies?)

 

[juss]

Potentially kills the chance if they dont get on the park this year. And even if they do manage to get a GF winner it will always have a *. No-ones fault but it will.

There's still the chance to equal Geelong in 21, but you do start to think the age and motivation will become a factor for Richmond then. I think a few will be well into the 30's by then and might drop away. (Or will the year off refresh a few bodies?)

It's so uncertain now. Here's hoping we can still get a 17 game season this year. At the end of the day we want to see teams compete for a flag with some semblance of a fair contest. If we get to play every side once, then we get that. I'd just hate to see a flag awarded off the back of some random 8 game + finals series.

It's impossible to predict 2021 now. No one knows the effect this has on the league.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Thi[/B]s Richmond team is well capable of winning another flag either this year, or next year. Who is going to stop them?

GWS would be my pick as potentially their toughest challenger over the next couple of years. They've got the cattle, but they've yet to take the next step and become a consistently dominant team

Who else is there? The Pies and Eagles are pretty good. Not great. The Tigers have them covered, I think...
The Western Bulldogs look to be a team on the rise, but they still have a ways to go. Same with the Brisbane Lions.

I don’t rate Geelong as flag contenders. Too reliant on Danger and Hawkins. Just about everything went their way last year and they couldn’t get it done. They’re not on Richmond’s level. Nor Hawthorn, Essendon, Port or anyone else. There’s a lot of average, mediocre teams, but not many good ones.

Bloody hell... The more I weigh up the opposition, the more I think a Richmond 3peat isn’t out of the question. They are well ahead of everyone else. That will give the Tigers 4 flags in 5 years.

But these discussions are nothing but bullshit anyway. Geelong fans are obsessed with comparing their great era to Hawthorn’s. It’s meaningless drivel and driven by butt.hurt insecurity. Who f**kin’ cares about Geelong 2007-2011 or Hawthorn 2011-2015?

Hopefully the Tigers do win 4 from 5 and shut everyone else up. Hopefully they go undefeated and beat GWS in this year’s Grand Final by 130 points and then we can all agree they’re the best team of all time and we'll never have these pointless discussions ever again.

COVID-19 for a start.

 

[NonPhixion]

not even close at all.
Geelong 07-09 is the best team ever
9 AA players in 2007, in the final 22

 

[juss]

not even close at all.
Geelong 07-09 is the best team ever
9 AA players in 2007, in the final 22

That's a pretty odd argument not sure AA numbers are relevant in a team sport where the collective is more important than the individual parts. Some premiers barely have any AA players selected. However, you'd be better off arguing Geelong in 07 were the best team ever for that year, it's probably the best individual year I've seen but when you include the 3 year era it can't be the case.

The "best team ever" wouldn't have rolled over to a big underdog in the Hawks in 08.

I'll give my best ever mantle to Brisbane 01-03 if we are using 3 year eras.