Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

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Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Blue1980]

Yeah, there seems to be a bit of a disconnect on this safety thing with Israel youth being the second most happy out of all the countries surveyed.

View attachment 1938902

Wow, go Lithuania, nato doing its job

 

[Not Important]

israel’s reputation worldwide will never recover from this. even their highly professional influential and coercive propaganda outfits won’t be able to excuse the genocide and treatment of children and women.

 

[Blue1980]

Israel was not a colony to the Jewish people and it was not "imposed" by the European colonial powers. You only have to look at things like the 1939 White Paper.

I mentioned upthread the Arab leaders' after the YK war in 1973 dishonest and deliberately propagandist re-interpretation to the anglophone and francophone and lusophone world of what "Nakba" was originally coined to mean.

Israel was also not later "maintained by U.S. imperialism". Obama and Kerry tried to pressure Israel and Tel Aviv bluntly told them to piss off. At this point, Israel no longer needs the USA.

Except for billions of dollars. If US cut off the funding, they’d be in all sorts of bother.

 

[Blue1980]

Israel has nukes.

So wtf do the US need to keep giving them money?

 

[sr36]

Liberal centrism, I think I hate it almost as much as blatant fascism.

I think the good versus evil mentality is blatant fascism.

 

[Blue1980]

I think the good versus evil mentality is blatant fascism.

I’m not looking at it as good v evil.

But it’s clear that one side can help settle all this and it’s the one with all the power and money who have killed over 30k civilians and turned Gaza into a parking lot.

I don’t think anyone is claiming Palestinians are all angels.

 

[sr36]

I’m not looking at it as good v evil.

But it’s clear that one side can help settle all this and it’s the one with all the power and money who have killed over 30k civilians and turned Gaza into a parking lot.

I don’t think anyone is claiming Palestinians are all angels.

Absolutely, Israel is the only one that can stop this current war and hopefully they do ******* soon. But what happens next? There will be a tomorrow - there always is.

You can prefer to not consider that and get annoyed by people discussing the broader context beyond the current war on Gazans (however, you don't seem to be annoyed with discussion of West Bank settlements, or the 60 years of oppression that led up to Oct 7) I prefer to consider the broader context, which is going to be a mess for a long time.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

It's the Arab/Palestinian choice in 1947-48 that set-in motion the events that led to the current war. Japan had a choice but they chose Nanking, Unit 731, the Thai-Burma Railway, the Bataan Death March. Germany had a choice. They chose a failed ex-street painter and they chose Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, Aktion T4, Sobibor, Treblinka and Mauthausen.

 

[Boston tiger]

Well well well. Let's see if the pro-Israeli side take the allegations of rape and sexual abuse of Palestinian women at Al-Shifa hospital by Israeli soldiers seriously given they ran with the "believe victims" narrative to circumvent the lack of evidence of rape on Oct 7.

Some very horrific and graphic stuff reported.

Al Jazeera takes down video falsely alleging IDF rapes in Shifa Hospital
Qatari network's ex-director says 'Hamas investigations' have debunked claim broadcast by news channel hours earlier; claimant wanted 'to arouse the nation’s ….

 

[DapperDon]

It's the Arab/Palestinian choice in 1947-48 that set-in motion the events that led to the current war. Japan had a choice but they chose Nanking, Unit 731, the Thai-Burma Railway, the Bataan Death March. Germany had a choice. They chose a failed ex-street painter and they chose Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, Aktion T4, Sobibor, Treblinka and Mauthausen.

Just quietly, if USA and Uk all of a sudden said 70% of Australia now belongs to someone else what would your thoughts be and how quickly would you pack up and go live in a small town with 70% of the population??

 

[sr36]

It's the Arab/Palestinian choice in 1947-48 that set-in motion the events that led to the current war. Japan had a choice but they chose Nanking, Unit 731, the Thai-Burma Railway, the Bataan Death March. Germany had a choice. They chose a failed ex-street painter and they chose Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, Aktion T4, Sobibor, Treblinka and Mauthausen.

Does it matter? We can blame Jews and the Brits for their 1948 colonialist behaviour. We can blame Arabs/Palestinian aggression in 1948. But everyone involved in those decisions is dead or really bloody close. If the blame game on ancestors continues, so too will this. They've just got to look to the future and try to make it better.

Without a state, freedom and far greater security for all involved, it isnt going to happen.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

Al Jazeera takes down video falsely alleging IDF rapes in Shifa Hospital
Qatari network's ex-director says 'Hamas investigations' have debunked claim broadcast by news channel hours earlier; claimant wanted 'to arouse the nation’s ….

It's the Tehran-Quatari propaganda news version of Japan doing stuff that would make the Waffen-SS blink.

Just quietly, if USA and Uk all of a sudden said 70% of Australia now belongs to someone else what would your thoughts be and how quickly would you pack up and go live in a small town with 70% of the population??

Just quietly, when you openly state Might is Right but when the "dhimmi" you view as inferiors turn out to have More Might, do you get to ask for takesie-backsies?

 

[Saint]

It's the Arab/Palestinian choice in 1947-48 that set-in motion the events that led to the current war. Japan had a choice but they chose Nanking, Unit 731, the Thai-Burma Railway, the Bataan Death March. Germany had a choice. They chose a failed ex-street painter and they chose Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, Aktion T4, Sobibor, Treblinka and Mauthausen.

It was the choice to impose Israel on Palestinians which triggered that.

The unspoken part of Israeli policy, but one which is undoubtedly true:

Israel doesn't want the state of Palestine to exist, ever.
Israel wants all the land in the West Bank and Gaza.
They can't take this land with all the Palestinians and still have the semi-democratic ethno-state they want.

They hope that the Palestinians leave after decades of oppression, no matter how long that takes. That's the only solution they are pursuing.

They will NOT accept a non-violent Palestinian state in the long term.
They meet non-violence with violence and land theft and illegal settlements.

What option does that leave Palestinians?

 

[owen87]

Why is it that every pro-Israel poster rapidly resorts to whataboutism when they're posting?

Is it because actually defending a likely genocide is pretty tough to do?

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

Why is it that every pro-Israel poster rapidly resorts to whataboutism when they're posting?

Is it because actually defending a likely genocide is pretty tough to do?

Why is it that every pro-Palestinian poster ignores facts such as that even the PLO admits that rejecting the Partition Plan and screaming "All the land, all the land, all the land!" was a mistake (Abbas did himself some years ago). The Three Noes of Khartoum was another grabbing of the Idiot Ball (cf. TV Tropes Dot Org)

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

It was the choice to impose Israel on Palestinians which triggered that.

The unspoken part of Israeli policy, but one which is undoubtedly true:

Israel doesn't want the state of Palestine to exist, ever.
Israel wants all the land in the West Bank and Gaza.
They can't take this land with all the Palestinians and still have the semi-democratic ethno-state they want.

They hope that the Palestinians leave after decades of oppression, no matter how long that takes. That's the only solution they are pursuing.

They will NOT accept a non-violent Palestinian state in the long term.
They meet non-violence with violence and land theft and illegal settlements.

What option does that leave Palestinians?

The Arab refusal to compromise and accept less than 100% of the prize in 1947-48 is pure idiocy if you take off the "white blindfold".

 

[owen87]

Why is it that every pro-Palestinian poster ignores facts such as that even the PLO admits that rejecting the Partition Plan and screaming "All the land, all the land, all the land!" was a mistake (Abbas did himself some years ago). The Three Noes of Khartoum was another grabbing of the Idiot Ball (cf. TV Tropes Dot Org)

I literally said that in hindsight they would think it was a better deal than the s**t sandwich the Palestinians have been handed ever since.

At the time 'give up your land to these Europeans that we feel guilty about getting ****ed over' would have seemed pretty shitty though.

But of course, you'll pick and choose which parts of history you want to consider when coming up with whatever your next whataboutism will be.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

But of course, you pick and choose which parts of history you want to consider.

My point remains that the Arabs could have compromised. They chose not to. They authored the Nakba through their arrogance, pride and folly.

 

[owen87]

They authored the Nakba

As I've said before.

No Nation State has ever been less responsible for their own actions than Israel.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

As I've said before.

No Nation State has ever been less responsible for their own actions than Israel.

The Arabs chose war in 1948 -- and very foolishly with the Reich only recently defeated. The Jews were a minority but strong enough to defend themselves.

 

[Saint]

My point remains that the Arabs could have compromised. They chose not to. They authored the Nakba through their arrogance, pride and folly.

No. Israel authored the Nakba. They didn't have to massacre all those people.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Fine. I'll go back to the movies and TV cliches thread and be apolitical.

Well that didn't last long.

 

[Zidane98]

I literally said that in hindsight they would think it was a better deal than the s**t sandwich the Palestinians have been handed ever since.

At the time 'give up your land to these Europeans that we feel guilty about getting ****ed over' would have seemed pretty shitty though.

But of course, you'll pick and choose which parts of history you want to consider when coming up with whatever your next whataboutism will be.

This is a factually incorrect statement. All inhabitants of Mandatory Palestine were free to keep their properties in whatever state they lived in whether they were Jewish or Arab. There was no Palestinian state prior to 1988 (there could have been one as early as 1948 if implemented the UN parition plan).



Mandatory Palestine was a left over remnant of the Ottoman empire. The only nation with a historical claim to the area did not want it at all (Turkey).


It is very telling the way you characterise the UN partition though.


I would say enough is enough and the whole matter should be handed back to the UN to decide on again, for the last time.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

No. Israel authored the Nakba. They didn't have to massacre all those people.

I'm not believing pro-Arab sources given their demonstrated and repeated dishonesty over several decades (e.g. about what Nakba was actually coined for).

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

Well that didn't last long.

If people hadn't kept quoting my posts, dear fellow.