Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

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Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

This is a factually incorrect statement. All inhabitants of Mandatory Palestine were free to keep their properties in whatever state they lived in whether they were Jewish or Arab. There was no Palestinian state prior to 1988 (there could have been one as early as 1948 if implemented the UN parition plan).



Mandatory Palestine was a left over remnant of the Ottoman empire. The only nation with a historical claim to the area did not want it at all (Turkey).


It is very telling the way you characterise the UN partition though.


I would say enough is enough and the whole matter should be handed back to the UN to decide on again, for the last time.

80 percent of the Mandate is Jordan now. 90% of the land taken in 1967 was the Sinai as well.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Everyone, please STOP quoting the TV cliche guy.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

Everyone, please STOP quoting the TV cliche guy.

Thank you, my good man!

 

[owen87]

This is a factually incorrect statement. All inhabitants of Mandatory Palestine were free to keep their properties in whatever state they lived in whether they were Jewish or Arab. There was no Palestinian state prior to 1988 (there could have been one as early as 1948 if implemented the UN parition plan).



Mandatory Palestine was a left over remnant of the Ottoman empire. The only nation with a historical claim to the area did not want it at all (Turkey).


It is very telling the way you characterise the UN partition though.


I would say enough is enough and the whole matter should be handed back to the UN to decide on again, for the last time.

Yes Zidane, my very obviously extremely simplified description of what a Palestinian might have thought 75 or so years ago is not a full and factual description of events.

 

[owen87]

I'm not believing pro-Arab sources given their demonstrated and repeated dishonesty over several decades (e.g. about what Nakba was actually coined for).

So to confirm;

You won't believe anything unless it's Pro-Israel?

 

[Saint]

The Arabs chose war in 1948 -- and very foolishly with the Reich only recently defeated. The Jews were a minority but strong enough to defend themselves.

If a group of Chinese people announced that Broome was now part of China and set themselves up with armed resistance units based on old terrorist organisations. Is it Australia who chooses war if they confront them?

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

So to confirm;

You won't believe anything unless it's Pro-Israel?

AJ is backed by the shits in Quatar and Iran. I wouldn't believe them if they said humans have to breathe and piss.

Please for the love of all that is God. Don't quote my posts as Ghostie stated.

 

[Saint]

I'm not believing pro-Arab sources given their demonstrated and repeated dishonesty over several decades (e.g. about what Nakba was actually coined for).

An Israeli soldier admitting to murder is not a pro-Arab source, except in the fact that what he admits to undermines everything Israel claims to stand for.

So anything which undermines Israel is, by definition, pro-Arab and therefore dishonest?

Because you read something about how Nakba means catastrophe and that can only have one literal meaning (military failure), not multiple?

 

[owen87]

AJ is backed by the shits in Quatar and Iran. I wouldn't believe them if they said humans have to breathe and piss.

Please for the love of all that is God. Don't quote my posts as Ghostie stated.

I reckon a blog might be more your go, don't have to attempt to explain anything to anyone there. Can be as pro-Israel as you like.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

An Israeli soldier admitting to murder is not a pro-Arab source, except in the fact that what he admits to undermines everything Israel claims to stand for.

So anything which undermines Israel is, by definition, pro-Arab and therefore dishonest?

Because you read something about how Nakba means catastrophe and that can only have one literal meaning (military failure), not multiple?

The meaning was dishonestly and retroactively changed for propaganda purposes.

 

[Saint]

The meaning was dishonestly and retroactively changed for propaganda purposes.

I mean, you can go and read the Palestine Post (now called Jerusalem Post) where they criticise the Irgun who now have museums dedicated to their terrorist activities.

Irgun kidnapped two British soldiers and hanged them 3 weeks later. Condemned at the time, the leaders of Irgun went on to be among the first Prime Ministers of Israel. And we're supposed to believe Israel doesn't do propaganda?

Exodus Exiles Will Suffer for Hangings ⁩ | ⁨The Palestine Post⁩ | 1 August 1947 | Newspapers | The National Library of Israel

Exodus Exiles Will Suffer for HangingsBy JON _KIMCHE , Special to The Palestine Post LONDON , Thursday . â If there were such a thing as a Streicher Medal , the Irgun leaders sureldeserve it for y se

www.nli.org.il

 

[sr36]

The meaning was dishonestly and retroactively changed for propaganda purposes.

Do you think that that military defeat wasn't also a time of great suffering and displacement for Palestinians. Why the hell wouldn't their term be connected to both defeat and displacement and suffering.

 

[owen87]

Why the hell wouldn't their term be connected to both defeat and displacement and suffering.

Doesn't suit Israel to recognise the suffering of Palestinians.

 

[Trouto]

I'm not believing pro-Arab sources given their demonstrated and repeated dishonesty over several decades (e.g. about what Nakba was actually coined for).

damn i am really invested in you believing that the IDF are sadistic murderers... I dont think i will be able to cope if you dont believe it or come up with a lame excuse....

 

[Saint]

The meaning was dishonestly and retroactively changed for propaganda purposes.

The interpretation was dishonestly and retroactively changed very recently for propaganda purposes.

In April 1948, the Jewish Agency condemned the Deir Yassin Massacre in the Palestine Post.

The Palestine Post⁩ | Page 1 | 12 April 1948 | Newspapers | The National Library of Israel

Column OneTl avid Courtney11 , I B y \After Mf _^ _ttliffftURGENT ADVICE TO LADIES GET YOUR SUPPLIES NOW OFgoods , enough to ensure continuity of treatment , as new imports are suspended for some timeB

www.nli.org.il

It's not like nobody knew the massacres were happening, or were made up later. But I guess the National Library of Israel is also pro-Arab dishonesty?

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

So will there be any consequences for the UN when Hamas inevitably breaks the UN's precious ceasefire?

Biden: Winnie the Pooh has voted in the resolution. Now let him enforce it. Oh, that's right. He can't.

In short, no. It will be just a reminder of the powerlessness of the SC members who voted for this.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

That is the true reason for the UN. To make sure nobody gets caught off guard by other nation's reactions to your antics. All the other stuff the UN tends to do, while often important, is really secondary to that function.

 

[owen87]

Israel: Commits a genocide.

Pro-Israel Poster:

So will there be any consequences for the UN

 

[sr36]

So will there be any consequences for the UN when Hamas inevitably breaks the UN's precious ceasefire?

Biden: Winnie the Pooh has voted in the resolution. Now let him enforce it. Oh, that's right. He can't.

In short, no. It will be just a reminder of the powerlessness of the SC members who voted for this.

It's 8 million people. It's a small economy. That could be crippled quite quickly. When Israel continues, the next resolution will about sanctions. Yanks will veto it, but they're in a position to stop this.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

I will just remind that the Allied bombing of the Axis wasn't a genocide, The Americans didn't "invade" Vietnam (Le Duan dictatorship) or Afghanistan (Taliban theocracy) either.

 

[barreness]

I will just remind that the Allied bombing of the Axis wasn't a genocide, The Americans didn't "invade" Vietnam (Le Duan dictatorship) or Afghanistan (Taliban theocracy) either.

What's the logic here?
Move troops half way round the world, shoot anyone that raises a stink, not an invasion? Ohhhhhh because they claimed whatever rump of rebels was the true state and they were invited, sounds legit

Nuking population centres is a little on the nose I reckon

 

[Demonic Ascent]

It's generally the western left that support the Palestinian cause, yes. Centrists and right wingers rightly don't tolerate Islamist theocrats or corrupt gangsters.

What a joke of a comment, "right wingers" have been more than happy to get into bed with Islamic theocrats and corrupt gangsters (among others) for decades if it suits their financial interests.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

What a joke of a comment, "right wingers" have been more than happy to get into bed with Islamic theocrats and corrupt gangsters (among others) for decades if it suits their financial interests.

Khalidi's family were landowners and actually made a lot of money selling land to the zionists. Does he mention that in his pseudo-history polemics? Perhaps not.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

This is a factually incorrect statement. All inhabitants of Mandatory Palestine were free to keep their properties in whatever state they lived in whether they were Jewish or Arab. There was no Palestinian state prior to 1988 (there could have been one as early as 1948 if implemented the UN parition plan).



Mandatory Palestine was a left over remnant of the Ottoman empire. The only nation with a historical claim to the area did not want it at all (Turkey).


It is very telling the way you characterise the UN partition though.


I would say enough is enough and the whole matter should be handed back to the UN to decide on again, for the last time.

"Give up your land" doesn't refer to the territory of a nation state. It is talking about the people who actually lived there.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

"Give up your land" doesn't refer to the territory of a nation state. It is talking about the people who actually lived there.

Which wasn't just the Arabs Muslim leadership who were pissed. Ordinary people would have agreed to share control - instead, as TV Tropes notes in its Useful Notes page on the conflict, it was the Arabs who lived in the Mandate who truly lost the war as they lost a third of the land the PP had allocated to the Arab State to Israel. The PP borders were far larger than anything the Palestinians could hope for in 1949, let alone, now or going forward.