Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Saint]

Because, mainly because of their own actions, the Palestinians don't have much leverage over Israel.

They don't have leverage because the US supports Israel to dominance in the region. Ukraine don't have much leverage over Russia, but it isn't because Russia have more right to Ukraine because they wield more power.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

No, but that the three democracies out of the five Permanent Members of the UNSC don't recognise the PLO fantasy is more important that how many UNGA less developed countries does matter.

How many UNSC and UNGA resolutions have Israel ignored?

There's a long list, you should start counting them.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

They don't have leverage because the US supports Israel to dominance in the region. Ukraine don't have much leverage over Russia, but it isn't because Russia have more right to Ukraine because they wield more power.

Neither the PLO or Hamas represent the Palestinan people. Both are the homotheist jackboot on those peoples' throat.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

How many UNSC and UNGA resolutions have Israel ignored?

There's a long list, you should start counting them.

Ditto with nobs on for Putin and those butchers in Beijing. Remember the Kaiser being surprised Asquith was going to war over a "scrap of paper"?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Ditto with nobs on for Putin and those butchers in Beijing. Remember the Kaiser being surprised Asquith was going to war over a "scrap of paper"?

Take your whataboutism to the appropriate thread. If you keep doing it, you'll be removed from this one.

 

[Blue1980]

Why is it that every pro-Palestinian poster ignores facts such as that even the PLO admits that rejecting the Partition Plan and screaming "All the land, all the land, all the land!" was a mistake (Abbas did himself some years ago). The Three Noes of Khartoum was another grabbing of the Idiot Ball (cf. TV Tropes Dot Org)

Rebuttal to accusation of whataboutism with more whataboutism.

 

[Blue1980]

Absolutely, Israel is the only one that can stop this current war and hopefully they do ******* soon. But what happens next? There will be a tomorrow - there always is.

You can prefer to not consider that and get annoyed by people discussing the broader context beyond the current war on Gazans (however, you don't seem to be annoyed with discussion of West Bank settlements, or the 60 years of oppression that led up to Oct 7) I prefer to consider the broader context, which is going to be a mess for a long time.

You don’t know that I am not looking at the broader context, I’m addressing there here and now, and one can condemn Israel as a state and their actions without having to have a 12 point dossier below every post of their future plan.

Of course there will be a tomorrow, the West Bank is also a massive problem with the illegal settlers.

Bibi would be hoping for another October 7 attack on the West Bank side so they can then do what they have done to Gaza there.

You need the Arab League of Nations (and with much of the worlds assistance) to rebuild Palestine, Palestine can’t be an apartheid state going forward, there must be a path forward for them to get to this point. Borders can’t be controlled by Israel either, must be by UN.

 

[Blue1980]

So will there be any consequences for the UN when Hamas inevitably breaks the UN's precious ceasefire?

Biden: Winnie the Pooh has voted in the resolution. Now let him enforce it. Oh, that's right. He can't.

In short, no. It will be just a reminder of the powerlessness of the SC members who voted for this.

You want the Israel to bomb the UN if that happens?

 

[Blue1980]

I will just remind that the Allied bombing of the Axis wasn't a genocide, The Americans didn't "invade" Vietnam (Le Duan dictatorship) or Afghanistan (Taliban theocracy) either.

Iraq?

 

[Blue1980]

What a joke of a comment, "right wingers" have been more than happy to get into bed with Islamic theocrats and corrupt gangsters (among others) for decades if it suits their financial interests.

Yes centrists and right wingers famously hate Saudi Arabia and refuse to do business with them

 

[Blue1980]

Speaking from a personal perspective, I'm pretty anti-genocide and other war crimes. Whoever is committing them.

It seems to blow right wingers minds to be ideologically consistent and not treat politics like a AFL where one has to defend their “team”.

Basic right wing attitude seems to be if you condemn Israel you love Hamas, or something.

 

[Blue1980]

Honestly, I'm just getting frustrated because there seems to be no equivocal pressure on Hamas.

I get that there are people trying to talk to them, but when people talk about how s**t everything is, it's all Israel is, but you know... Hamas is there too? When they talk about how negotiations aren't working or whatever, Hamas is never really brought up or blamed. It just bugs me because even though they're worse, it feels like because everyone knows they're not going to be reasonable, ever, they just give up on trying to make Hamas act reasonable, or holding them to account, or even considering them as a factor and actor in all this in their own right, and just concentrate on the more reasonable Israel.

Except, you know. Hamas is still there too.

Like, the US is angry at Israel for planning to attack Hamas in an area full of civilians, but I never hear anything about, 'Hamas is using their citizens as living shields and they're absolute shitheads for it'. Or, 'Here's what we'll do to help prevent 10/7 2: Blood Filled Buggalo if they don't attack the big Hamas military target'. There's just this drive for a ceasefire without dealing with the fundamental problem that made Israel start this in the first place. I don't know if Biden's just not saying it, or the media is ignoring it when he does, but feels like a cycle where pressure on Israel keeps getting mentioned, making people madder, making them want to up the pressure...

And then everyone's ignoring the people actually out to commit genocide.

I can think of four reasons:

1. Most people not knowing Hamas' true capabilities, as a well-armed, well-trained military numbering in the tens of thousands (pre-war, obviously).
2. Other people talking about Hamas in stupid ways ("Do you condemn Hamas" is a meme now).
3. Some Israelis hurting their cause with malicious acts of stupidity, like the settlement expansion plan.
4. I have noticed a rise of some leftists seeing Hamas not as a terrorist organization but as a liberation organization against the so-called white Zionist colonisers in their own words, now of course this is generally still in the fringe and mostly a bit of a far-left thing But I think there a rise of pro-Hamas people who see Hamas as just a innocent organization trying to liberate Palestine and not as it is a genocidal terrorist organization (the same reason their equally incompetent predecessors orgasmed over the POS Ho Chi Minh/Le Duan and the NLF/VC).

No right minded person sees Hamas as part of a future plan of a two state solution where everyone is living in peace. They have to go, that is true.

They aren’t worse than Israel and the IDF though, that’s just western media BS trying to frame it in them being ethical and they are really just trying to get Hamas in Gaza but are really bad at it and accidentally levelled 70-80% of all buildings.

IDF are terrorists, they just aren’t framed as that in the west.

One can’t claim Hamas have the same capability, if they somehow did, that is an even worse argument for Israel, as it means they haven’t used it and Israel have.

Israel govt needs to go, their left wing (read: less fascist) party needs to go. Bibi and Ben Gvir are bloodthirsty warmongers who have been salivating over the opportunity to do what they are doing now in Gaza.

 

[Blue1980]

Using WWII as an example, bombing Axis cities was needed to destroy German and Japanese industrial and logistical capability. Modern wars are not only fought between professional armies.

Comparing Palestine or Hamas to the axis powers is insane.

The axis powers weren’t living in an apartheid state. Nor have Palestine been attempting to take over an entire continent.

 

[Blue1980]

That's still a horrible double-standard though. The idea that Israel should be somehow held to a higher moral standard than Hamas means that the latter's crimes should go uncommented at best, or be perceived as somehow justified at worst, while every move of Israel should be faced with maximum scrutiny.

I do not see that as a defensible position. Both Hamas and Israel should be held to the same standards, because both ultimately consist of individuals and all people are equal. Unless you somehow make the argument that all members of Hamas are somehow mentally deficient, they are entirely culpable for their own actions and should be condemned for them.

Like, the very idea that we should somehow be stricter towards fellow democracies while tolerating the atrocities of dictatorships because that's "just how they are" is completely foolish.

Hamas killed about 600 civilians on october 7, Israel 30 odd thousand since then (many many thousands before then).

So by holding them to the same standard, Israel is worse:

 

[owen87]

Hamas killed about 600 civilians on october 7, Israel 30 odd thousand since then (many many thousands before then).

So by holding them to the same standard, Israel is worse:

How many more civilians are / will die due to famine to come as well.

 

[Ballarat Bob]

Does Israel quite understand the backlash that they are receiving from previously supportive governments and civilian populations ? Expanding settlements yet again under the smokescreen of the Gaza conflict is just doubling down and reinforcing negative perceptions of Israel.
I don't think there has been a lot of thought or any long term thinking about the response to October 7th and what the best response would be to Hamas. They had every right to respond militarily to Hamas but the over the top reaction targetting anything in Gaza and causing huge civilian casualties is not going to get much support outside of Israel. Domestically it will play well and the demonisation of all Palestinians is a part of that script. Not unless there is a long term bi partisan move to address the Palestinian issue in a fair and just manner will there ever be any chance of long term peace.
Israel will defeat Hamas but will be left with the ruins of Gaza with an extremely hostile population and the international community scrutinising their every move.They might even double down and try and invade southern Lebanon again. I think Netanhiyu is praying like hell Trump gets in , even Biden is starting to walk back from giving Israel unconditional support.
Wait for the pictures of starving Palestinians compared to concentration camp victims from WW2. IDF members ransacking homes , posing with prisoners , blowing up homes for fun , the repeated statements from
Government ministers wanting to ethnically cleanse Gaza and steal land for Israelis. I expect a lot more will come out later on after the end of the conflict. All of this is now on public record across the internet and social media , the narrative can't be controlled by Israel. It will be a stain on Israel they can't erase regardless how justified they think their actions are.
They might win the battle but they are losing the war.

( Before anyone attacks me I have previously condemned Hamas who's existence is going to be very short lived and I hope their vile legacy is equally scrutinised as much as Israel's)

 

[sr36]

You don’t know that I am not looking at the broader context, I’m addressing there here and now, and one can condemn Israel as a state and their actions without having to have a 12 point dossier below every post of their future plan.

Of course there will be a tomorrow, the West Bank is also a massive problem with the illegal settlers.

Bibi would be hoping for another October 7 attack on the West Bank side so they can then do what they have done to Gaza there.

You need the Arab League of Nations (and with much of the worlds assistance) to rebuild Palestine, Palestine can’t be an apartheid state going forward, there must be a path forward for them to get to this point. Borders can’t be controlled by Israel either, must be by UN.

I suppose I'm just assuming that you're ignoring the broader context, as the broader context includes Israel and you get a bit snippy when I mention Israel's context.

I agree with you regarding what Palestinians need. Until recently, there was a lot of support for a two state solution in Israel. Got to get that back or it won't happen.

 

[Saint]

You know it's bad when JPost has articles like this in it. Netanyahu copping both barrels. And this is the paper which usually favours him. It's like Murdoch turning on the conservatives.

Netanyahu's regime is Sinwar's dream: Israel gets closer to the abyss every day - opinion

Benjamin Netanyahu's ineffective slogans and leadership are pushing Israel closer to global isolation and disaster.

www.jpost.com

The ultra-zionist settler terrorists in the Israeli Cabinet are also practically in open disagreement with Yoav Gallant, the Likud Defence Minister.

If I could bet on it, I'd have a stack on Likud ditching Bibi and the zionist-terrorists from the coalition and agreeing to join with National Unity with Gallant as the head and agree to a 2-state solution. Then continue the war with better international support. Bibi is now poison internationally as well as internally.

 

[Roylion]

This will be my last post.

One of the oldest Zionist apologetic arguments you'll hear is that the Jews were somehow "the original inhabitants" or Palestine and, thereby, Jerusalem.

Archaeology supports that the Hebrews/Israelites from which the Jewish culture and religion derive were a sub-culture of the Canaanites that arose in the Judean highlands.

Recent archaeological field research seems to suggest a distinct Israelite / Hebrew community / culture arose fairly peacefully and internally in the Judean highlands of Palestine around 1200 BC with their own national god Yahweh who himself was part of the pantheon of Canaanite gods that included El, Baal and Yahweh's wife Asherah. Between 1,200 BC and 1,000 BC they began moving into the Judean lowlands from the highlands, possibly as Canaanite city culture collapsed. The term "Hebrew" generally denotes an Israelite from the nomadic era that preceded the establishment of a political entity around 1,000 BC. Some historians suggest that a small group of people of Egyptian origin may have joined the early Israelites, and then contributed their own Egyptian Exodus story to all of Israel. The Hebrew language was originally a Canaanite dialect and is today the only living descendant of that language group.

The name "Israel' (ysrỉꜣr) first appears near the end of the 13th century BC on line 27 of the ancient Egyptian Merneptah Stele which refers apparently to a people (rather than a place) inhabiting what was then Canaan. This is one of at least four known inscriptions mentioning 'Israel'.

For roughly 3500 years --Yes, say that figure out loud: THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS-- in what is called the Proto-Canaanite period, Jerusalem belonged to the Canaanites who worshipped many gods and godesses.

Of which Yahweh was one of those gods.

The territory passed from the Canaanites to the Egyptians, ultimately. So here we have Egyptians and Canaanites being the original inhabitants of Jerusalem for 3,500 years before the Jews ever conquered it.

Jerusalem was taken by King David in 1010BC and lost to the Egyptians in 925BC.

David may not have even existed.

That Jerusalem was "lost" to the Egyptians is also not certain. Jerusalem does not appear in the list of cities of Judah listed on the Bubastite Portal gate located in Karnak. that fell to Shishak who is usually identified with the Pharoah Shoshenq.

Jehoash of Israel briefly recaptured it in 786BC but then lost it to the Assyrians in 740BC.

Recaptured it from who? The King of Judah?

Hezekiah the King of Judah is well attested both in the archaeological and extra-biblical record.

In 2015 a bulla was discovered that bears an inscription in ancient Hebrew script that has been translated as: "Belonging to Hezekiah [son of] Ahaz king of Judah." The Lachish Relief attests that King Sennacherib of Assyria began his siege of the city of Lachish in 701 BC. Sennacherib's Annals which are on three clay prisms which by the dates on one of three was 689 BC and the other two in 691 BC.

We know that the Kings of Judah that have been confirmed by archaeology are Hezekiah (Annals of Sennacherib), Ahaz (bullae and Tiglath-Pileser III annals), Manasseh (Prism of Esarhaddon). Jehoiachin (texts from Nebuchadrezzar's Southern Palace) and Jotham (bullae).

Archaeological evidence suggests that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 or 586 BC by the Babylonians ending the Kingdom of Judah.

Recent excavations at Khirbet Qelyaga suggest the existence of a centrally organized and urbanized kingdom by the mid 10th century BC, (900s) meaning that the Kingdom of ancient Judah lasted roughly 350 years.

That's just 131 years, just about as long as the Crusaders' rule of Jerusalem in the Middle Ages.

Archaeology supports about a period of 350 years as mentioned above.

The Jewish Hasmoneans re-took it in 140BC under Simon Thassi but then lost it to the Persian Seleucides in 134. That's 6 more years of Jewish rule.

The autonomous Hasmonean Kingdom of Judea lasted roughly between 140 BC and 63 BC with the Jewish Hasmonean kings continuing to rule until 37 BC. Herod the Great ruled as King of Judea from 37 BC until his death in 4 BC.

Due to a Seleucid civil war, Judeah incidentally became independent in the chaos in 116BC. In 87BC the Jewish Hasmonean king executed 800 Jews for sedition. In 47BC they lost Jerusalem again, this time to the Romans. That's 69 years of rule.

Judea became a Roman client kingdom in 63 BC.

In total, off and on the Jews ruled Jerusalem for MAYBE 206 years.

Just under 500 years as a political Jewish entity of some kind.

And before any of them, the Canaanites and the Egyptians lived and ruled there for 3,500 years.

The Israelites / Judahites were Canaanites. There is genetic evidence that populations from the Zagros Mountains and the Caucasus themselves arrived in Canaan (southern Levant) between 2500–1000 BC. An earlier wave of people were immigrants who arrived between 4400 – 3500 BC, but even they weren't the first human inhabitants of the area. Earlier cultures such as the Natufian (dating to around 15,000 to 11,500 years ago) and the Kebaran cultures (dated to 23,000 to 15,000 years ago) were known to exist. Genetic analysis has suggested that the Canaanites may themselves be the descendants of the Natufians and people from Anatolia (in Turkey) who themselves arrived from the Eurasian steppes north of the Black Sea.

The Bible says God ordered them exterminated to extinction in a genocide that included many other unfortunate nations:

There is little to no archaeological evidence that this happened.

But, all was not lost. Some Canaanites apparently survived the Israelite genocide.

There is no archaeological evidence that there was a genocide of Canaanites. What is written in the Bible should be taken with a large grain of salt in terms of actual history.

Where are they?

Lebanon.

So the Lebanese are the people who scientifically and genetically are proven to be the original dwellers of not only Jerusalem but all of Palestine (so-called "Israel"). The argument should pretty much completely end there.

The modern Lebanese are certainly descendants of the Canaanites via the Phoenicians who were Canaanites.

Seeing that we're bringing up genetics, Canaanite DNA is found in both modern Arabic and Jewish populations as they share a very similar HLAgenetic pool. Most of today’s Jewish and Arabic-speaking populations in Israel and Palestine share roughly half of their genetic makeup with the indigenous people of the southern Levant. Additional genetic results suggest that the Ashkenazim Jews can trace at least part of their ancestry to Israelite forebears.

A 2006 study found 40% of the current Ashkenazi Jewish population are descended matrilineally from just four women that originated in the Middle East in the 1st and 2nd centuries. This was corroborated by a 2014 study, although a 2013 study disputes this, suggesting that Ashkenazi Jews can be traced to women who existed 10-20,000 years ago.

A 2010 study on Jewish ancestry refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry, as two major identified groups – the Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews – shared common ancestors in the Middle East about 2500 years ago.

More recently a 2017 running different tests on Ashkenazi Jewish genomes found an approximately even mixture of Middle Eastern and European ancestry and concluded that the true fraction of European ancestry was possibly about 60% with the remaining 40% being Middle Eastern, originating in the Levant.

A 2022 study on the genome of modern Ashkenazi Jewry found that their genetic markup was a near-even mixture with about 60% of modern Ashkenazi DNA found to come from Middle Eastern ancestry and 40% with Eastern European ancestry.

Many genetic studies have demonstrated that most of the various Jewish ethnicities and Palestinians, Bedouin and Lebanese cluster near one another genetically.

DNA research has also revealed significant genetic links between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jewish populations, despite their separation for generations.

Actual history tells us that Jews ruled Palestine for barely over 2 centuries.

Well that's not quite correct.

 

[Saint]

Archaeology supports that the Hebrews/Israelites from which the Jewish culture and religion derive were a sub-culture of the Canaanites that arose in the Judean highlands.

Recent archaeological field research seems to suggest a distinct Israelite / Hebrew community / culture arose fairly peacefully and internally in the Judean highlands of Palestine around 1200 BC with their own national god Yahweh who himself was part of the pantheon of Canaanite gods that included El, Baal and Yahweh's wife Asherah. Between 1,200 BC and 1,000 BC they began moving into the Judean lowlands from the highlands, possibly as Canaanite city culture collapsed. The term "Hebrew" generally denotes an Israelite from the nomadic era that preceded the establishment of a political entity around 1,000 BC. Some historians suggest that a small group of people of Egyptian origin may have joined the early Israelites, and then contributed their own Egyptian Exodus story to all of Israel. The Hebrew language was originally a Canaanite dialect and is today the only living descendant of that language group.

The name "Israel' (ysrỉꜣr) first appears near the end of the 13th century BC on line 27 of the ancient Egyptian Merneptah Stele which refers apparently to a people (rather than a place) inhabiting what was then Canaan. This is one of at least four known inscriptions mentioning 'Israel'.



Of which Yahweh was one of those gods.


David may not have even existed.

That Jerusalem was 'lost" to the Egyptians is also not certain. Jerusalem does not appear in the list of cities of Judah listed on the Bubastite Portal gate located in Karnak. that fell to Shishak who is usually identified with the the Pharoah Shoshenq.



Recaptured it from who? The King of Judah?

Hezekiah the King of Judah is well attested both in the archaeological and extra-biblical record.

In 2015 a bulla was discovered that bears an inscription in ancient Hebrew script that has been translated as: "Belonging to Hezekiah [son of] Ahaz king of Judah." The Lachish Relief attests that King Sennacherib of Assyria began his siege of the city of Lachish in 701 BC. Sennacherib's Annals which are on three clay prisms which by the dates on one of three was 689 BC and the other two in 691 BC.

We know that the Kings of Judah that have been confirmed by archaeology are Hezekiah (Annals of Sennacherib), Ahaz (bullae and Tiglath-Pileser III annals), Manasseh (Prism of Esarhaddon). Jehoiachin (texts from Nebuchadrezzar's Southern Palace) and Jotham (bullae).

Archaeological evidence suggests that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 or 586 BC by the Babylonians ending the Kingdom of Judah.

Recent excavations at Khirbet Qelyaga suggest the existence of a centrally organized and urbanized kingdom by the mid 10th century BC, (900s) meaning that the Kingdom of ancient Judah lasted roughly 350 years.




Archaeology supports about a period of 350 years as mentioned above.


The autonomous Hasmonean Kingdom of Judea lasted roughly between 140 BC and 63 BC with the Jewish Hasmonean kings continuing to rule until 37 BC. Herod the Great ruled as King of Judea from 37 BC until his death in 4 BC.



Judea became a Roman client kingdom in 63 BC.


Just under 500 years as a political Jewish entity of some kind.


The Israelites / Judahites were Canaanites. There is genetic evidence that populations from the Zagros Mountains and the Caucasus themselves arrived in Canaan (southern Levant) between 2500–1000 BC. An earlier wave of people were immigrants who arrived between 4400 – 3500 BC, but even they weren't the first human inhabitants of the area. Earlier cultures such as the Natufian (dating to around 15,000 to 11,500 years ago) and the Kebaran cultures (dated to 23,000 to 15,000 years ago) were known to exist. Genetic analysis has suggested that the Canaanites may themselves be the descendants of the Natufians and people from Anatolia (in Turkey) who themselves arrived from the Eurasian steppes north of the Black Sea.


There is little to no archaeological evidence that this happened.


There is no archaeological evidence that there was a genocide of Canaanites. What is written in the Bible should be taken with a large grain of salt in terms of actual history.



The modern Lebanese are certainly descendants of the Canaanites via the Phoenicians who were Canaanites.

Seeing that we're bringing up genetics, Canaanite DNA is found in both modern Arabic and Jewish populations as they share a very similar HLAgenetic pool. Most of today’s Jewish and Arabic-speaking populations in Israel and Palestine share roughly half of their genetic makeup with the indigenous people of the southern Levant. Additional genetic results suggest that the Ashkenazim Jews can trace at least part of their ancestry to Israelite forebears.

A 2006 study found 40% of the current Ashkenazi Jewish population are descended matrilineally from just four women that originated in the Middle East in the 1st and 2nd centuries. This was corroborated by a 2014 study, although a 2013 study disputes this, suggesting that Ashkenazi Jews can be traced to women who existed 10-20,000 years ago.

A 2010 study on Jewish ancestry refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry, as two major identified groups – the Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews – shared common ancestors in the Middle East about 2500 years ago.

More recently a 2017 running different tests on Ashkenazi Jewish genomes found an approximately even mixture of Middle Eastern and European ancestry and concluded that the true fraction of European ancestry was possibly about 60% with the remaining 40% being Middle Eastern, originating in the Levant.

A 2022 study on the genome of modern Ashkenazi Jewry found that their genetic markup was a near-even mixture with about 60% of modern Ashkenazi DNA found to come from Middle Eastern ancestry and 40% with Eastern European ancestry.

Many genetic studies have demonstrated that most of the various Jewish ethnicities and Palestinians, Bedouin and Lebanese cluster near one another genetically.

DNA research has also revealed significant genetic links between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jewish populations, despite their separation for generations.




Well that's not quite correct.

You're doing that thing where you conflate ethnicity and religion and use them interchangeably. As well as focusing on only the rulers of the time.

If Jewish-led Kingdoms were in control for around 500 years, how many of the people actually converted, or were most of the people still worshipping multiple gods?

There was ~200 years of Persian (Zoroastrian) rule in that time. So if Israel claiming sovereignty based on 500 years, maybe the Iranians can claim a chunk, and another 100 years for the Seleucids (Greece?) and part for Rome (Italy).

The main point is that for 5,000 years there have been various religions and rulers pass through the region. Picking one 500 year period out of all of that as the basis for future rule and importing people of one religion from around the globe to displace those who live there now (or pre1947) is just outright stupidity. Yet everyone is pretending as if it's a reasonable thing to do. It's madness that only religious people could argue for.

 

[sr36]

You're doing that thing where you conflate ethnicity and religion and use them interchangeably. As well as focusing on only the rulers of the time.

If Jewish-led Kingdoms were in control for around 500 years, how many of the people actually converted, or were most of the people still worshipping multiple gods?

There was ~200 years of Persian (Zoroastrian) rule in that time. So if Israel claiming sovereignty based on 500 years, maybe the Iranians can claim a chunk, and another 100 years for the Seleucids (Greece?) and part for Rome (Italy).

The main point is that for 5,000 years there have been various religions and rulers pass through the region. Picking one 500 year period out of all of that as the basis for future rule and importing people of one religion from around the globe to displace those who live there now (or pre1947) is just outright stupidity. Yet everyone is pretending as if it's a reasonable thing to do. It's madness that only religious people could argue for.

Jewishness is a conflation of ethnicity and religion, so it's hard not to conflate them.

The history of it all is fascinating and really important for understanding some of the current views, beliefs, attitudes and feelings of ownership over the land.

But the way I see out, getting bogged down in it is a huge part of why the problem is so complex. It turns it into an argument about who has the stronger claims to the land, whereas the reality is both groups have massive historical claim and connection to that land mass.

Got to stop worrying too much over who has the superior claim. The vast majority of Jews and Palestinians were born there, have lived all their lives there and for them it's home. Got to move on from the past and work out how they can all continue to live there with a state they call home and freedom and safety within that state. Just got to accept that the past is passed rather than trying to return to it.

 

[Saint]

It is almost certain that with only 500 years of history, that practicing Jews have never (until the last 50 years) made up a majority (ethnically or religiously) of what is now called Israel. Even when under the Kingdom of Judea, Judaism was centered around Jerusalem. Anything much beyond that might have been ruled by Jewish kings for a few centuries, but the people wouldn't have considered themselves Jewish either in ethnicity or religion. Acre, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Haifa are examples of this. They were never cities with a majority of Jewish citizens until the 1900's when European Jews moved there.

It's really only the area of historic Judea which were ever majority Jewish. So from Jerusalem to Beersheba and nowhere near the coast.

 

[Roylion]

You're doing that thing where you conflate ethnicity and religion and use them interchangeably.

That's because they're related. Being Jewish is a cultural and religious construct. I've made it quite clear that genetically the original Hebrews/Israelites/Judahites (Jews) are Canaanites.

As well as focusing on only the rulers of the time.

In determining evidence for the existence and the longevity of a Jewish political entity in the area now known as Palestine (which was brought up by another poster), we use the available written records. And most of them refer to rulers of the Kingdom of Judah which based on the known evidence existed between c. 950 BC and 586 BC, a period of just over 350 years. Later another kingdom of Judea existed between roughly 140 BC and 4 BC before it was split by the Romans into three Jewish principalities called tetrarchies. In AD AD 44 Judaea became a Roman province but was still essentially Jewish in outlook until the conclusion of the Jewish-Roman wars in AD 135. At that point Judaea became no longer the focus of Jewish life.

If Jewish-led Kingdoms were in control for around 500 years, how many of the people actually converted, or were most of the people still worshipping multiple gods?

Both. It is clear that for many Yahweh was merely one of a pantheon of Canaanite gods. For others Yahweh was their patron god. Increasingly Yahweh came to be seen as the only god.

There was ~200 years of Persian (Zoroastrian) rule in that time. So if Israel claiming sovereignty based on 500 years, maybe the Iranians can claim a chunk, and another 100 years for the Seleucids (Greece?) and part for Rome (Italy).

I've made absolutely no comment on the rights and wrongs of modern claims to the land. I've merely corrected and explained what historians and archaeologists have concluded from the available archaeological and genetic evidence.

The main point is that for 5,000 years there have been various religions and rulers pass through the region.

Yes? I haven't denied that.

Picking one 500 year period out of all of that as the basis for future rule and importing people of one religion from around the globe to displace those who live there now (or pre1947) is just outright stupidity.

That's for you to debate. As I said, I'm not making comment on the rights and wrongs of modern claims to the land. All I'm presenting is the actual historical facts. You can interpret them to suit your own agenda as you see fit.

 

[Not Important]

i’m told the israeli propaganda conglomerate is placing placards around saying “antisemitism is unaustralian” conflating criticism of the hideous israeli leadership and fellow travellers with criticism of judaism. don’t fall for it, the two are mutually exclusive.

these actions are what those with a soul and heart are concerned about. to those responsible for the vacuous sayings on placards i say you are netanyahu enablers. what is unaustralian is support for the murderous hideous regime that controls israel

 

[Not Important]

and the corrupt feelingless israeli leadership do it with not a scintilla of remorse.