Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

"(I am an) active duty member of the U.S. Air Force and I will no longer be complicit in genocide.”

Someone has set themselves on fire outside the Israeli Embassy in Washington D.C in protest against continued Israeli depradations in Gaza.

Active-duty airman set himself on fire in front of Israeli embassy

The Air Force said the man who immolated himself is active duty. Emergency services said he suffered "critical life threatening injuries."

taskandpurpose.com

Feb 25, 2024

A man wearing a U.S. Air Force uniform set himself on fire outside the Israeli embassy in Washington, D.C. today.

The District of Columbia Fire and Emergency Medical Services Department confirmed to Task & Purpose that they received a report about a man on fire outside the embassy just before 1 p.m. Eastern Time and dispatched emergency services. The fire had been extinguished by uniformed members of the Secret Service. EMS took the man to an area hospital, saying he was suffering from “critical life threatening injuries.”

The incident appears to be in protest of Israel’s war in Gaza. Independent journalist Talia Jane obtained video of the self-immolation, although it has not been posted online. On X, former known as Twitter, Jane reports that the man in Air Force uniform said he was “an active duty member of the U.S. Air Force and I will no longer be complicit in genocide.” He then set himself on fire and shouted “Free Palestine.”

Law enforcement responded, putting out the fire with three fire extinguishers. Law enforcement also drew a gun on the burning man during the incident...

and

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/02/25/dc-israeli-embassy-man-fire/

EDIT: The Jerusalem Post is calling him an 'arsonist' for setting himself on fire.

Man sets himself on fire outside of DC Israeli embassy

DC Fire and emergency medical services found the man outside of the embassy with burn wounds.

www.jpost.com

 

[PieLebo87]

Declassified CIA documents from October 1947.

…geographic position gives it a strategic significance…

..its proximity to the Suez Canal and the fact that it is an outlet for the oil of the Middle East..

To preserve the US position in the Middle East and counter Soviet infiltration…

The petrol resources of the Middle East are vitally important to US security…

Imperialism at its finest.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78-01617A003000120004-1.pdf

 

[faible]

It's always everyone's fault but Israel's lol

In the last few months I've learned that no Nation State is less responsible for their own actions than Israel.

 

[faible]

Gazan workers in Israel are not cheap labour either like some claim. 10 X the rates they earn in Gaza.

This is a bizarre argument.

We could pay Indian workers 10 x what they earn in India and it would still be cheap labour for Australians.

 

[Zidane98]

This is a bizarre argument.

We could pay Indian workers 10 x what they earn in India and it would still be cheap labour for Australians.

It isn't intended as an argument. A significant number of Palestinian citizens have always worked in Israel:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-work-permits-for-gazan-palestinians-a-lifeline-a-leverage-tool-or-both/

Generally was viewed as a deterrent for the likes of Hamas to not murder Israeli citizens.


Also, salaries are on par with Israeli citizens in similar jobs for Gazans employed in Israel.

Eg

West Bank Palestinians paying the price for Gaza war

Kamal, from the occupied West Bank, had a well-paid job in Israel before the Hamas attacks - now he is in poverty.

www.bbc.com

The notion that Gazans are employed for cheap labor is not supported by any facts.

 

[Carn The Berries]

If I read something from a journalist that uses terms like slaughter or genocide then I know it’s an opinion piece and dont give it much thought .. other than here we go.

An "opinion" that the ICJ thinks is entirely possible....

 

[faible]

Generally was viewed as a deterrent for the likes of Hamas to not murder Israeli citizens.

So... not a goodwill thing like you were arguing previously. Got it.

Also, salaries are on par with Israeli citizens in similar jobs for Gazans employed in Israel.

The notion that Gazans are employed for cheap labor is not supported by any facts.

I can't find anything to support these claims. Best I can find is average wage figures:

https://www.inss.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/no.-1626.pdf

Average monthly Gazan wage in Israel; NIS $6,367

Average wage in Israel hits new record

en.globes.co.il

Average Israel wage; NIS $12,969

In addition it would appear there's plenty of room for exploiting Palestinian workers:

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/gazan-workers-exploited-ruthlessly-by-israel/

According to Kav LaOved, a labor rights NGO in Israel, such workers from the occupied territories have little to no protections in Israel and their working conditions are unsupervised. Palestinian workers, who are often employed in sectors where there is a high risk of accidents, such as construction, have no authority they can turn to unless their employer has an employment permit and pays a regular wage.

Kav LaOved is aware of complaints of many employers who exploit workers’ vulnerabilities and the lack of oversight in order to delay wages or avoid paying them altogether.

West Bank Palestinians paying the price for Gaza war

Kamal, from the occupied West Bank, had a well-paid job in Israel before the Hamas attacks - now he is in poverty.

www.bbc.com

"The agreements between Palestinian and Israeli unions force employers to pay compensation to workers due to the cessation of work.
"But the Israeli employers evade paying their dues and there is no law in Israel that forces them to do so."

Work permits are a lifeline for Gaza, and a lever for Israel

KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — Ibrahim Slaieh can point to three great moments of joy in his life in the Gaza Strip: his graduation from university, his wedding, and the day last year when he got a six-month permit to work inside Israel.

apnews.com

Israel acknowledges the permits are also a powerful tool to help preserve calm or — in the eyes of its critics — control.

The permits give Israel a form of leverage over the Palestinians who rely on them

Israel often describes the permits, and other measures that provide economic opportunities to Palestinians, as goodwill measures. Critics view the permits as another means of control, part of Israel’s decades-long military rule over millions of Palestinians, which shows no sign of ending.

 

[Zidane98]

Yes can be argued that it is a form of control.

Conversely Jordan stripped Palestinians of their nationality that live in Jordan and ability to work there:

Stateless Again

This 60-page report details the arbitrary manner, with no clear basis in law, in which Jordan deprives its citizens who were originally from the West Bank of their nationality, thereby denying them basic citizenship rights such as access to education and health care.

www.hrw.org

This is despite Jordan disengaging as the occupying force in the West Bank from 1988 onwards.

 

[faible]

Yes can be argued that it is a form of control.

Conversely Jordan stripped Palestinians of their nationality that live in Jordan and ability to work there:

Stateless Again

This 60-page report details the arbitrary manner, with no clear basis in law, in which Jordan deprives its citizens who were originally from the West Bank of their nationality, thereby denying them basic citizenship rights such as access to education and health care.

www.hrw.org

This is despite Jordan disengaging as the occupying force in the West Bank from 1988 onwards.

Is this more whataboutism?

Jordan treating Palestinians poorly doesn't somehow diminish or exempt Israel from the same.

You could create a thread about it if you like, where it won't be interrupted by discussions of Israel's war on Hamas Palestinians.

 

[Zidane98]

Is this more whataboutism?

Jordan treating Palestinians poorly doesn't somehow diminish or exempt Israel from the same.

You could create a thread about it if you like, where it won't be interrupted by discussions of Israel's war on Hamas Palestinians.

It is entirely relevant as the original discussion was Israel doesn't open up its borders to Gazans. In the interest of factual reporting I pointed out that not to be the case at all, infact on Sept 29th the very opposite to that happened with Israel.


Certainly a strange course of action for anyone intent on killing every single Palestinian on earth as you claim.

 

[faible]

It is entirely relevant as the original discussion was Israel doesn't open up its borders to Gazans. In the interest of factual reporting I pointed out that not to be the case at all, infact on Sept 29th the very opposite to that happened with Israel.


Certainly a strange course of action for anyone intent on killing every single Palestinian on earth as you claim.

Who said this was the aim?

They're seemingly quite happy to exploit them as a labour force so long as they're not too uppity.

I eagerly await your next 'but what about <insert something at best tangentially related>' post in reply.

 

[Zidane98]

Who said this was the aim?

They're seemingly quite happy to exploit them as a labour force so long as they're not too uppity.

I eagerly await your next 'but what about <insert something at best tangentially related>' post in reply.

Is this more whataboutism?

Jordan treating Palestinians poorly doesn't somehow diminish or exempt Israel from the same.

You could create a thread about it if you like, where it won't be interrupted by discussions of Israel's war on Hamas Palestinians.

You've indicated here that you believe Israel has declared war on all Palestinians.

 

[faible]

You've indicated here that you believe Israel has declared war on all Palestinians.

Israels actions in Gaza and the West Bank would suggest they're quite happy to displace and kill Palestinians and take more of their land when not using them for labour, yes.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

You've indicated here that you believe Israel has declared war on all Palestinians.

Do you think Hamas have declared war on all Israelis?

Yet with 50x the kill rate, Israel hasnt declared war on all Palestinians?

 

[Blue1980]

Looks like the whatsapp group dropped some new talking points.

Yes, seemingly it’s just blame Egypt.

 

[Blue1980]

Declassified CIA documents from October 1947.









Imperialism at its finest.

View attachment 1913569

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78-01617A003000120004-1.pdf

And here I was thinking they gave Jewish people an israel state from the goodness of their hearts….

 

[Blue1980]

In the last few months I've learned that no Nation State is less responsible for their own actions than Israel.

I assume any US ally can behave in such a way. For example if Australia just decided to go and blow up Papua New Guinea the US would cheer us on.

 

[Saint]

Declassified CIA documents from October 1947.









Imperialism at its finest.

View attachment 1913569

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78-01617A003000120004-1.pdf

Interesting that it's a country, when I swear the Zionists think the land over the other side of the fence is both theirs and doesn't exist at the same time.

Palestine is Schrodinger's Israel. It's Israel if you're talking about it in an abstract way, but if you go there, it's full of Palestinians and therefore not Israel.

 

[Saint]

It is entirely relevant as the original discussion was Israel doesn't open up its borders to Gazans. In the interest of factual reporting I pointed out that not to be the case at all, infact on Sept 29th the very opposite to that happened with Israel.


Certainly a strange course of action for anyone intent on killing every single Palestinian on earth as you claim.

Choked the Gazan economy to 50% unemployment, then gave them 18,000 work permits (for maybe 250,000 unemployed people) and charged over 1/3 of their salary for the permit.

Then, when fighting broke out, they rounded them all up, imprisoned and tortured them. And you're telling me Israel were doing them a favour?

‘Tortured, arrested and insulted’, say workers returned to Gaza by Israel

A Gaza worker returning to the enclave says he and co-workers were tortured, others report arrests by Israel.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Demonic Ascent]

1979 is the big year for the Middle East. Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran and the Siege of Mecca in Saudi.. the Middle East has glorified its Islamic extremists ever since. The whole place is s**t scared of itself. Egypt has built a wall.! !
How do you defend yourself against religious extremism? With extremism??

Yeah horrible, I wonder if we reflect on it all what lessons we could learn from that experience?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

We need a cease fire.

Then what?

Reparations from Israel to rebuild Gaza.

Withdrawal of illegal Israeli settlers from West Bank.

UN peacekeeping force to oversee transition of Palestine to self government.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Why wouldn’t l? Thats what you do as a neighbour. Help your fellow man . You don’t wall them in . Do you care about the children or not ?

How about you answer some questions ?

As neighbours they should probably help the Gazans defend themselves by declaring war on Israel. I hope they don't as it would likely escalate to a regional/world war.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Three... It gives Israel an out for all the murders they have committed. Unless Egypt is willing to then fight for Gazans, feed, clothe, and house them their fate will be the same.

All Israel has to do is stop and rebuild.

Not hard.

Four it assists Israel with their goal to ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip and annex the land after destroying all physical infrastructure. It's just a pathetic assertion and attempt to deflect from the war crimes/genocide being committed by Israel.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

It is entirely relevant as the original discussion was Israel doesn't open up its borders to Gazans. In the interest of factual reporting I pointed out that not to be the case at all, infact on Sept 29th the very opposite to that happened with Israel.


Certainly a strange course of action for anyone intent on killing every single Palestinian on earth as you claim.

Talk about being disingenuous!

The original discussion was why don't Egypt open up their borders to Palestinians. It was about the hundreds of thousands if not million+ refugees, not a few hundred people crossing through Israeli checkpoints to work there.

 

[Zidane98]

Talk about being disingenuous!

The original discussion was why don't Egypt open up their borders to Palestinians. It was about the hundreds of thousands if not million+ refugees, not a few hundred people crossing through Israeli checkpoints to work there.

Why doesn't Egypt before the war started allow Gazans to travel to and from Egypt daily for health / economic opportunities? It's a very valid point.