Oppo Camp Jaidyn Stephenson (Traded to Nth Melb. 2020)

[Gone Critical]

Hold on. Are you trying to say that the club deliberately played Phillips out of position to force him out or are you just discounting that he was clearly overtaken by better players?

Same with Treloar. Is there a possibility that the club could see that his soft tissue injuries were going to be an ongoing issue and may have learned their lesson about paying players large sums of money to sit in the stands?

Yes the story I have is before 2020 season club wanted him out and he was told he would be played out of position if he stayed. He didn’t agree and stayed. 2020 off season he was told he would never be played in the 1’s. Eventually he caved and agreed to go. Good kid so he played the party line but his team is not happy .

 

[Gone Critical]

Other balance here is understanding what draft picks give you. If we look at our best pick, 17, and its history it goes like this.

37 drafts, 8 players out of that 37 have played >100 games, about 1:5. If you hone down on more recent time, say 2004-2013, which are the lat 10 players with complete careers, it goes to 2 in 10 or last 20 years 4 in 20.

So truth id 1:5 OR 1:4 players at this level end up playing 100 games or more. If we take our pick 17, 19, 23, 30 , 31 and 44 and get 1 or 2 kids who are at Phillips level and play more than 100 games we will have performed ok. Trouble is we gave up better talent. Stats sat we are unlikely to replace Treloar, Stevo and Phillips with the 2020 crop and if we dont we almost certainly slide down the ladder.

 

[jmac70]

Other balance here is understanding what draft picks give you. If we look at our best pick, 17, and its history it goes like this.

37 drafts, 8 players out of that 37 have played >100 games, about 1:5. If you hone down on more recent time, say 2004-2013, which are the lat 10 players with complete careers, it goes to 2 in 10 or last 20 years 4 in 20.

So truth id 1:5 OR 1:4 players at this level end up playing 100 games or more. If we take our pick 17, 19, 23, 30 , 31 and 44 and get 1 or 2 kids who are at Phillips level and play more than 100 games we will have performed ok. Trouble is we gave up better talent. Stats sat we are unlikely to replace Treloar, Stevo and Phillips with the 2020 crop and if we dont we almost certainly slide down the ladder.

We already slid down the ladder with those players. Hence the need for a mini rebuild. Also, we could be lining up for a potential A grade free agency signing.

 

[Gone Critical]

We already slid down the ladder with those players. Hence the need for a mini rebuild. Also, we could be lining up for a potential A grade free agency signing.

We were not rebuilding by getting rid of them we were fixing our cap issue.

Sliding down the ladder and being beset by the problems we have had this off season will have taken us off the destination list for the big free agents in my opinion. Short term I cant see why they would come to Collingwood, almost always they go to a team who looks likely to achieve success soon.

 

[jmac70]

We were not rebuilding by getting rid of them we were fixing our cap issue.

Sliding down the ladder and being beset by the problems we have had this off season will have taken us off the destination list for the big free agents in my opinion. Short term I cant see why they would come to Collingwood, almost always they go to a team who looks likely to achieve success soon.

I agree we had cap issues that had to be fixed, but also it’s clear we’ve tried to bring in fresh young talent. Don’t agree we are not a destination club. With room in the cap we will be an attractive option.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I agree we had cap issues that had to be fixed, but also it’s clear we’ve tried to bring in fresh young talent. Don’t agree we are not a destination club. With room in the cap we will be an attractive option.

Yep, although you cant argue that Stevo isnt fresh young talent. There are multiple reasons these three players were targetted to be moved on.....the starting base might have been salary cap but the reasons to move on these specific individuals went beyond just salary cap.

I also agree that talking about Collingwood not being a destination club is absolute rubbish. We will be a strong destination club to the extent that the salary cap allows......which it hasnt in recent years because we have spent our spare cap on the wrong targets.... Beams Treloar Mayne Wells etc....

 

[Gone Critical]

I agree we had cap issues that had to be fixed, but also it’s clear we’ve tried to bring in fresh young talent. Don’t agree we are not a destination club. With room in the cap we will be an attractive option.

We were left with no choice but bring in a load of youngsters. Unfortunately we had a large mix of medium level to later draft picks in a draft most clubs were happy to be inactive in. We are going against the odds to find high end talent. Its a strategy you would only take on when out of choices. We hope it pays off but the odds suggest it wont.

If it doesn't why would we be a destination club? We have seen having a big load of money available doesnt entice good FA's without the prospect of success and stability. If you were a player aganet would you suggest Collingwood currently to your FAs?

 

[jmac70]

We were left with no choice but bring in a load of youngsters. Unfortunately we had a large mix of medium level to later draft picks in a draft most clubs were happy to be inactive in. We are going against the odds to find high end talent. Its a strategy you would only take on when out of choices. We hope it pays off but the odds suggest it wont.

If it doesn't why would we be a destination club? We have seen having a big load of money available doesnt entice good FA's without the prospect of success and stability. If you were a player aganet would you suggest Collingwood currently to your FAs?

I think in general you have a more pessimistic view of our list than I. For example, I don’t recall you being optimistic about our chances in 2018. Whereas I predicted we would make the grand final very early in the season.

We are an A grade mid and forward short of being a genuine contender. JDG moving to the mid could fix one of those problems. Big seasons from Elliott, Cox and WHE could fix the other.

 

[Jasper84]

Yes the story I have is before 2020 season club wanted him out and he was told he would be played out of position if he stayed. He didn’t agree and stayed. 2020 off season he was told he would never be played in the 1’s. Eventually he caved and agreed to go. Good kid so he played the party line but his team is not happy .

So what should the club have done? Gift Phillips the wing because he's a good kid, despite there being better players for the role? It's a harsh business but the reality is that Phillips lost his spot and if he stayed in 2021 he should of been in the 2's unless one of our first choice wingmen got injured.

 

[Gone Critical]

That’s true but reality of 2018 was we’re had a lucky draw and made the most of it. We were really more of a bottom 8 club on talent who hit form in the finals. 2019 I thought we were better than 2018.

I think we have slipped since then and our other problem is while our list has lost talent almost all those around us have made significant improvements in the off season

 

[Gone Critical]

So what should the club have done? Gift Phillips the wing because he's a good kid, despite there being better players for the role? It's a harsh business but the reality is that Phillips lost his spot and if he stayed in 2021 he should of been in the 2's unless one of our first choice wingmen got injured.

Not at all, if he is not up to it he doesnt get a spot. Truth is though before injury he played 70 games in a row without being dropped. So he was still best 22. Among my problems is the way I have heard we ousted him. His contract went to high once he triggered clauses he wasn't expected to meet. 2019 off season we tried to force him out and he was told if he stayed he would not be played on the wing and things would be difficult for him. He stayed. After 2020 he was told he wont be picked in the seniors if he elects to stay.

As Buckley has said they forced players out and it was brutal. Phillips accepted he had no realistic choice. Collingwood tried to force him to drop his contracted amount because Hawks were only offering 300K. Went right to the wire and eventually we blinked so are paying him $300K to play for the Hawks.

Just not the way a professionally run club should be operating and we shouldn't gloss over it because we have a raft of new kids.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

There have been some amazing stories about Stephenson.
Liked the one being a generational player.
Yes he Is talented footballer, yes l am disappointed in how much we got for him, disappointed in how much we were paying him if true.
Will we miss him don’t know, will he live up to his potential, l have my doubts.
But l would have daicos in my team before Stephenson, and personally l think he is just as talented as jaidyn is. Daicos has improved every year and Stephenson has not. That’s working hard on and off the field.
That earns the respect of your team mates and coaches. If you lose that respect your gone.
As for Phillips, l like him, good team man, underrate by some, but the fact is he was one dimensional and daicos had gone pasted him. Wish him well.

Surely if you think Stephenson is at least as talented as Daicos, you would have room for both of them in your team?

 

[Spuddd]

People overlook and dismiss the “fit” aspect. It’s arguably more important than skill and talent.
How many of you have played footy with that one bloke no one likes but is a gun, it’s a drainer and doesn’t get the best out of anyone.
Ditto in a workplace setting, you can be the smartest, brightest talent - but if you don’t fit within what the organisation wants or it’s people, it’s not going to work.

doesn’t take away from that those individuals may be stars and might shine brightly at their next club/workplace. But being in a toxic situation doesn’t help anyone.

 

[Jasper84]

Not at all, if he is not up to it he doesnt get a spot. Truth is though before injury he played 70 games in a row without being dropped. So he was still best 22. Among my problems is the way I have heard we ousted him. His contract went to high once he triggered clauses he wasn't expected to meet. 2019 off season we tried to force him out and he was told if he stayed he would not be played on the wing and things would be difficult for him. He stayed. After 2020 he was told he wont be picked in the seniors if he elects to stay.

As Buckley has said they forced players out and it was brutal. Phillips accepted he had no realistic choice. Collingwood tried to force him to drop his contracted amount because Hawks were only offering 300K. Went right to the wire and eventually we blinked so are paying him $300K to play for the Hawks.

Just not the way a professionally run club should be operating and we shouldn't gloss over it because we have a raft of new kids.

I'd imagine that the same ultimatum was given to Mayne after his first year with us. Difference being that Mayne toughed it out in the seconds, reinvented himself and forced his way into the best 22.

I notice that you keep referring to Phillips as best 22, 70 games in a row etc. Do you believe that Phillips would be best 22 this year if he stayed? If so, who is he replacing?

 

[No SPIN]

Rucks don`t win flags, Grundy is been overpaid as of the 2021 season commencing, Give me a KPF ,every day of the week and twice on Sunday, be it, Hawkins, ,T.Lynch, Riewoldt ,J,Kennedy, , Darling, Franklin,Dixon, the 5 best performed Rucks of the last decade , Naitanui, Grundy,Goldstein Gawn, Sandilands, have 0 flags between them, our current Full Back is a Premiership winning ruck for the Bulldogs, Shaun Grigg (wingman) premiership winning ruck, , Ivan Soldo , Malthouse had a point, Ruckmen are way overrated

Leigh Mathews rated Grundy as the best player in the game in 2019 - proving that his worth is far greater than just as a Ruckman.

 

[No SPIN]

We were left with no choice but bring in a load of youngsters. Unfortunately we had a large mix of medium level to later draft picks in a draft most clubs were happy to be inactive in. We are going against the odds to find high end talent. Its a strategy you would only take on when out of choices. We hope it pays off but the odds suggest it wont.

If it doesn't why would we be a destination club? We have seen having a big load of money available doesnt entice good FA's without the prospect of success and stability. If you were a player aganet would you suggest Collingwood currently to your FAs?

If the money is right of course an Agent would recommend Coll. Let’s not pretend an agents self interest doesn’t influence his recommendation as long as the club isn’t a basket case.

 

[cakewalk06]

Not at all, if he is not up to it he doesnt get a spot. Truth is though before injury he played 70 games in a row without being dropped. So he was still best 22. Among my problems is the way I have heard we ousted him. His contract went to high once he triggered clauses he wasn't expected to meet. 2019 off season we tried to force him out and he was told if he stayed he would not be played on the wing and things would be difficult for him. He stayed. After 2020 he was told he wont be picked in the seniors if he elects to stay.

As Buckley has said they forced players out and it was brutal. Phillips accepted he had no realistic choice. Collingwood tried to force him to drop his contracted amount because Hawks were only offering 300K. Went right to the wire and eventually we blinked so are paying him $300K to play for the Hawks.

Just not the way a professionally run club should be operating and we shouldn't gloss over it because we have a raft of new kids.

100% agreed we should not gloss over the shitfest that was that trade period and the gross mismanagement of the cap. The poor treatment of Treloar, Phillips, Stephenson etc. Beams, Eddie, et al. The spin about how we were going hard at the draft to freshen up etc...

It should not be forgotten ... but at the same time we cannot afford to sit there, stewing, fuming, angry. Rehashing the same things over and over again hoping that somehow it will change what has happened. Heads up... it can't change it. But what it can do is sap the energy out of people and leave them unfocused, split the supporter base etc. That is exactly what other clubs hope we will do.

What I am saying is, we don't forget what happened, It's not all sunshine and lollipops at the Pies. But we make the pragmatic decision to move on and refocus on what lies ahead instead of abandoning all hope and energy to a cause that has already been lost.

Bounce the bloody ball already

 

[No SPIN]

I think in general you have a more pessimistic view of our list than I. For example, I don’t recall you being optimistic about our chances in 2018. Whereas I predicted we would make the grand final very early in the season.

We are an A grade mid and forward short of being a genuine contender. JDG moving to the mid could fix one of those problems. Big seasons from Elliott, Cox and WHE could fix the other.

And Kelly

 

[sr36]

Rucks don`t win flags, Grundy is been overpaid as of the 2021 season commencing, Give me a KPF ,every day of the week and twice on Sunday, be it, Hawkins, ,T.Lynch, Riewoldt ,J,Kennedy, , Darling, Franklin,Dixon, the 5 best performed Rucks of the last decade , Naitanui, Grundy,Goldstein Gawn, Sandilands, have 0 flags between them, our current Full Back is a Premiership winning ruck for the Bulldogs, Shaun Grigg (wingman) premiership winning ruck, , Ivan Soldo , Malthouse had a point, Ruckmen are way overrated

I think we should spend all our money on flankers as twice as many flankers get premiership medals as KPP.

 

[davywap]

Yes the story I have is before 2020 season club wanted him out and he was told he would be played out of position if he stayed. He didn’t agree and stayed. 2020 off season he was told he would never be played in the 1’s. Eventually he caved and agreed to go. Good kid so he played the party line but his team is not happy .

How childish and ridiculous do people think these football clubs are?

 

[davywap]

Rucks don`t win flags, Grundy is been overpaid as of the 2021 season commencing, Give me a KPF ,every day of the week and twice on Sunday, be it, Hawkins, ,T.Lynch, Riewoldt ,J,Kennedy, , Darling, Franklin,Dixon, the 5 best performed Rucks of the last decade , Naitanui, Grundy,Goldstein Gawn, Sandilands, have 0 flags between them, our current Full Back is a Premiership winning ruck for the Bulldogs, Shaun Grigg (wingman) premiership winning ruck, , Ivan Soldo , Malthouse had a point, Ruckmen are way overrated

Yeah pretty useless to bring in Jolly and use Leroy Brown as a pinch-hitter back in 2010.

 

[Matrix10]

Yeah pretty useless to bring in Jolly and use Leroy Brown as a pinch-hitter back in 2010.

Yep, Jolly more than a good ruck, solid around the ground and damaging up forward when resting there, Leroy sent packing by 2 clubs, that`s moneyball right there

 

[left at home]

Surely if you think Stephenson is at least as talented as Daicos, you would have room for both of them in your team?

I agree to a point, the difference is one does everything right on and off the field, the other one, going by what’s been now said did not. If had to pick one who would you, the one that you hope someday to pull his finger out, or the one that does everything he can to be the best he can be.

 

[jackcass]

I think we should spend all our money on flankers as twice as many flankers get premiership medals as KPP.

Really? On field? 2x HFF's, 2x KPF's, 2x HBF's, 2x KPD's. Seems more same - same to me. You're not trying to sully the good name of FP's and BP's by lumping them in with flankers are you?

 

[Soups]

Doubt it. Every time James Stewart plays his one good game for the year, a new "We f’ed Up" thread is created. This one will have Methuselah like longevity.

James Stewart the greatest player since Jesse White