Lets get this straight, It's NOT about Christ

[Goldenblue]

Like all aspects of all organised religion.

My thoughts exactly, but this thread is interesting to read.

I have no beliefs but I find religion interesting, but not interested enough to be brainwashed by it.

There has never been any proof to prove there were any god(s), but science have been proven time and time again (with some mistakes) with the birth of Earth and it's humans and animals.

That's good enough for me.

 

[skipper kelly]

Like all aspects of all organised religion.

Any chance of evidence to prove that all aspects of all organised religion have been changed and manipulated many, many times down the centuries to suit the ruling religious class of the time.

Thanks.

 

[BomberGal]

Who cares what God was thought to have looked like? The concept of God was hardly stolen from Zeus and I doubt His appearance was either. A wise old man with a white or grey beard is what most people would immediately think of if they were asked to describe a physical image of God.

Didn't say the concept of God was stolen from Zeus, but it's just another deity to add to the ever growing list, really...

You can't, for one thing the Egyptian gods are three separate gods and worshipped that way. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the one deity and also Mary was not even a god at all.

No, the Egyptian Gods are not always worshipped as separate Gods. There were many different sects in which Osiris merged with Horus, or Isis merged with a cow and so became Hathor, Horus's wife. The Egpytian deities were all intertwined. And their stories related each to the other. Mary may not have been a god but she is most certainly worshipped.

Not to be picky here but the immaculate conception refers to the birth of Mary not Jesus and means she was not affected by original sin and therefore lived a sinless life. Obviously Egyptian mythology had no concept of original sin so there was no immaculate conception.

Alright, let's replace the term "Immaculate Conception" with "Virgin Birth". Whichever way you look at it, proper intercourse did not take place.

The concept of sin existed in Egyptian religion as well.

Isis did find all the missing pieces except the phallus, but she placed a substitute phallus in it's place,

Ahh, so you know your stuff here. Yes, Isis made a golden phallus. But it was not a 'real' phallus by any means, and certainly not in any biological terms had it been real, could it have created a child. It was because of the power she had.

The Qu'ran is another subject all together and there are plenty of holes to be picked out of it and reasons why it is not the word of God.

I've never undertaken a detailed analysis of the bible, but there are inconsistencies in the bible like there's no tomorrow.

 

[- PC -]

Who cares what God was thought to have looked like? The concept of God was hardly stolen from Zeus and I doubt His appearance was either. A wise old man with a white or grey beard is what most people would immediately think of if they were asked to describe a physical image of God.

You cared enough to comment and asked where in the Bible its stated.Then you agree!!!!!!!

Not to be picky here but the immaculate conception refers to the birth of Mary not Jesus

Where in the Bible does it state The Immaculate conception was about Mary.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Immaculate Conception
THE DOCTRINE

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically.

I wasn't calling all other religions mythical when I said that, I meant to say the claims Christianity was copied from them are myths and easily refuted, although I do believe they are mythical too. The Qu'ran is another subject all together and there are plenty of holes to be picked out of it and reasons why it is not the word of God.

Huh? We have proved Christianity WAS copied and borrowed from myths..head in the sand time?

You have a case for the Quran as Muhammed the Prophet was from 610AD

and a lot was copied from the bible

 

[Lestat]

You have a case for the Quran as Muhammed the Prophet was from 610AD

and a lot was copied from the bible

Copied??

Definately not. Have you read the Quran?

How can you say it was copied. The Quran is the completion of the religon of God, which includes some stories which were also in the Bible and the Torah.

However, much of what is in the Quran cannot be found in either the Bible or the Quran.

eg. Jesus spoke in the cradle, immediately after his birth. This cannot be found in either the Bible or the Torah.

I find it ammusing when all these people make comment on the Quran, when 95% of you probably have never read it (I apologize in advance if I am assuming incorrectly).

Birdy, Its rather obvious that you need to learn and study your own religous book, instead of parroting what your 'father' at the church has told you.

So is your priest your 'father'...or is it just symbolic. Your priest isn't your father is he, just as God isn't Jesus's father.

But just out of curiousity, how do you explain the prophecy in the Bible which states that the Romans would be defeated by the 'messiah', within his generation.

This never happened, so how do you explain this. Just one of many prophecies, which were not fullfilled by Jesus, but were, however, fullfilled by Muhummed.

Oh...and tell me, when exactly did Jesus establish God's Kingdom on earth. When did this happen? The Romans ruled Palestine (the promised land)for 600 years after the death of christ. So its rather obvious that Jesus never established any sort of kingdom on earth. The rulers of Palestine (romans) ruled Palestine before Jesus, during Jesus, and long after Jesus, until the teachings of Muhummed (the final prophet, the seal of the prophets) spread his message of tawhid (the oneness of God), and after his death, his generation (companions) fullfilled the prophecy of the Bible, and defeated the Romans, conquered Palestine (the promised land) and the promise that God made to Abraham was fullfilled (Abraham's decendants would rule over Palestine......not the descendants of Isaac, but the descendants of Ishmael)

Oh, and please explain to me again how it is possible that God who ordered Abraham to sacrifice is 'ONLY' son, how can that son have been Isaac, when Isaac was 7 years younger then Ishmael. Are you aware of the concept of an 'only son'. How can Isaac have been the son in question, when he already had an older brother.

Oh, and show me once again where Jesus says he is the son of God??

You say that the Quran has holes in it. Tell me Birdy...what exactly are these holes.

PS...I look forward to seeing you cut and paste your 'holes' from anti-islamic sites such as 'answering-islam.org'...please do, most of there arguments are so ridiculous, almost an child could refute them.

 

[Lestat]

Birdy, Could you answer some questions for me.

How can you believe in the pagan of the concept of the trinity, when you own book, the Bible and your own religon states otherwise, a number of times.

Can you explain these passages from the Bible to me. (you see, I'll use your own book to prove you wrong. Cause unlike you, I've read the Bible, the Torah and the Quran. Have you read them all, I some how doubt it). Some of the statements you've made are so incorrect, that you could not have possibly read the bible, I suspect your just going on heresay, and what you've heard.

Anyways....

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the Bible, Mark 12:29)"

Hmmm, sounds awfully similar to this from the Quran.

Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

Yet for some unknown, you go against your own bible, and choose to believe not in the oneness of God, despite this being rather clearly stipulated by both Moses and Jesus in your scriptures.

No...you choose to believe in the trinity. Trinitarian Christians often refer to trinity as the "Holy Trinity". A very powerful statement indeed for a pagainword that doesn't even exist, not even once, in the Bible!!

Isn't that rather strange. The very foundation of your religous beliefs...and it is not even mentioned ONCE..NOT ONCE, in the book that you claim to believe in.

However....lets investigate the trinity a little further shall we, and when exactly it became a part of Christian dogma.

The early Christians rejected Trinity. Early Christians had major problems and disagreements about who truly Jesus was and whether or not he got crucified or not.

I suggest you purchase the documentary film, "Banned from the Bible", at www.historychannel.com and watch it for yourself. You may be surprised by what you see.

But fine...if you are to believe in the trinity, then can you please answer one question to me, I've asked this question to many, and have yet to recieve and plausible explanation.

Why, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the least, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?

Now perhaps I can point you to the many propecies IN THE BIBLE regarding Muhummed (pbuh) as the final prophet of God.

In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses peace be upon him predicting that GOD Almighty will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10,000 of Believers:

"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (From the King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

The very same prophecy was also made by Prophet Enoch peace be upon him:

Enoch says...

"Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Now...if you know anything about the history of Islam, you would know that the city of Mecca (Paran) was liberated by Prophet Muhammad's 10,000-men army, from the rule of pagan idols, which had occupied the city for hundreds of years.

Now, since these prophecies were foretold in the Bible's Old Testament, I would like to openly challenge you, or any Jewish Rabbi or Christian Priest or Minister to answer the following question for me:

Where in the Bible do we see any Prophet executing the Judgement of GOD Almighty specifically in the city of Paran (Mecca, the city that Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael to)?

Now lets move on shall we....

Prophet Isaiah (pbuh) prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel:

"And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)"

Who are the "couple of horsemen"? They are Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them.)

Jesus fulfilled the riding of the donkey prophecy: "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, (John 12:14)"

The quote "as it is written" is referring to Isaiah 21:7. It is important to know that NO WHERE in the New Testament do we see Jesus riding any camel. NO WHERE in the New Testament do we see any fulfillment of any kind about the prophecy of riding the camel.

When we look at Muhammad peace be upon him, he rode the camel several times in his life time. The most popular event of him riding the camel is when he migrated from Mecca to Medina to escape the torture of the pagans.

 

[Birdy]

No, the Egyptian Gods are not always worshipped as separate Gods. There were many different sects in which Osiris merged with Horus, or Isis merged with a cow and so became Hathor, Horus's wife. The Egpytian deities were all intertwined. And their stories related each to the other.

But that is the point, these gods are separate, they are a triad not a trinity, they are not one god.

Mary may not have been a god but she is most certainly worshipped.

Only by some idolatrous Catholics!

Alright, let's replace the term "Immaculate Conception" with "Virgin Birth". Whichever way you look at it, proper intercourse did not take place.

Proper intercourse did take place, with the substitute.

The concept of sin existed in Egyptian religion as well.

But not original sin, as in Adam and Eve.

Ahh, so you know your stuff here. Yes, Isis made a golden phallus. But it was not a 'real' phallus by any means, and certainly not in any biological terms had it been real, could it have created a child. It was because of the power she had.

You can't just ignore the sexual elements of Horus's conception, it's nothing like that of Jesus. It's basically just a normal birth.

I've never undertaken a detailed analysis of the bible, but there are inconsistencies in the bible like there's no tomorrow.

Really? Like what?

 

[Lestat]

now lets take a look as some more prophecies, in the Bible, which were not fullfilled by Jesus (pbuh), but were however fullfilled by Muhummed(pbuh)

In the Old Testament, we read about GOD Almighty promising to create "Great Nations" from Ishmael, Abraham's first Son and the father of the Muslims:

"The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

The quote "go to the land I will show you" is referring to the city of Paran (Mecca).

The quote "I will make you into a great nation" is quite interesting. How can GOD Almighty call the Muslims, who came from Ishmael, a "great nation" if they are as the modern Christians of today consider them to be "Satan's followers"? How can we be a "great nation" in the eyes of GOD Almighty if we are hated by Him? (just one of many contradictions)

The quote "I will bless those who bless you" perfectly fits the Muslims. As you probably know, we Muslims worship Allah Almighty by prostrating to Him. Every time we pray and prostrate, we end our prayer by sitting on our knees and say the following exact quote:

"........and bless Prophet Muhammad and the people of Prophet Muhammad, like You blessed Prophet Abraham and the people of Prophet Abraham........"

As you clearly see, we bless Prophet Abraham every single day of our lives when we pray to Allah Almighty. We also do say "peace be upon him" or "peace and blessings be upon him" when we refer to his name or any other Prophet's name.

I blessed the Prophet Abraham(pbuh) 4 times with every prayer, and today I have prayed 5 times, meaning that I have blessed the Prophet Abraham (pbuh) 20 times today....how many times have you blessed the prophet Abraham(pbuh) today Birdy?? tsk tsk tsk...Seems that you won't be blessed, unless of course you bless the Prophet Abraham regularly. Do you.if so, I'd like to know..when?

Now my question to you or anyone is:

How can the Muslims be cursed and considered satan followers when GOD Almighty in Genesis 12:3 blesses them because they bless Abraham?

How can the Muslims be cursed by GOD Almighty when they bow down to Him and only Him in prostration?

Yes, the Muslims are the "great nation" that GOD Almighty talked about, they are blessed by Him because they worship non but Him, and they bless Abraham everyday in their Prayers.

 

[Lestat]

Now for some of the exaggerations found in the Bible (of course, considering that the original text has been modified numerous times by men, is it any surprise)

The Bible contains many verses in it that contain irrational statements. For instance in Matthew 21:21

" Jesus replied, 'I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.'"

I challenge any "faithful" believing Christian to move one brick, not a mountain with his sight or words. Have any Christian from the time of Jesus till now been able to do it?

Go on Birdy...do you think you've got what it takes.

Another exaggerating expression is in Mark 16:17-18

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Again, I challenge any Christian to allow himself to get bit by a poisonous rattle snake or cobra and survive its venom.

Does this mean no "Christian" is a real Christian? Did Jesus say that no one will ever be a believer, since they can't lift mountains with their eye sights nor survive deadly poisons?

Does the Bible contain exaggerating expressions in it? Well if the above is anything to go buy, then its rather obviously that it does.

And if so, then how can you take the "Trinitarian" (all one of them, which is rather dubious at very best) verses so literal then? They too are nothing but exaggerations.

now lets look at John 10:30 (one of the verses that many Christians often use has 'proof' that Jesus is the son of God).

"I (Jesus) and the Father are One."

This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context, because beginning at verse John 10:23 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states:

"...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.

Also lets look at verse John 17:20-22

"That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE".

In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN is used, not only to describe Jesus and the Father but to describe Jesus, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods. (The trinity has gone from 3, to 13...hmm)

Of the verse in question, "I and the Father are One" in (John 10:30), you should also take note of the verses following the 30th verse in the text. In those verses, the Jews accuse Jesus falsely of claiming to be God by these words. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text:

"The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '" (John 10:33).

Jesus replies to this accusation saying:

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemeth," because I said I am the son of God?'" (John 10:34-36).

Let us look at Acts 2:22

"O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you..."

Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus. Jesus thus even to his disciples, as to early Christians, not poisoned by Pauline doctrine, was a man, not a God. Now much clearer would you like it to be.

Now I challenge you to give me any contradictions, or errors such as those I have listed above, in the Quran.

you can't, because unlike the Bible which WAS the word of God, but has, however been corrupted by man so many times, the Quran is the word of God, protected by God.

 

[evo]

Now perhaps I can point you to the many propecies IN THE BIBLE regarding Muhummed (pbuh) as the final prophet of God.

In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses peace be upon him predicting that GOD Almighty will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10,000 of Believers:

"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (From the King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

The very same prophecy was also made by Prophet Enoch peace be upon him:

Enoch says...

"Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Now...if you know anything about the history of Islam, you would know that the city of Mecca (Paran) was liberated by Prophet Muhammad's 10,000-men army, from the rule of pagan idols, which had occupied the city for hundreds of years.

Let me preface this by saying that what I know about the history of Islam could be written on a postage stamp.But isn't it possible that the story of the liberation of Mecca, or at least some of the details, have been doctored to make it more like the prophesy?

Prophet Isaiah (pbuh) prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel:

"And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)"

Isn't a chariot a Roman word for a horse drawn cart?I thought Jesus rode on it's back.On reading the King Jamesversion it maybe suggesting a group of Asses(a chariot of asses) together which he would then ride with one foot on each?But he never did that either.

Who are the "couple of horsemen"? They are Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them.)

But they lived in different times.

Jesus fulfilled the riding of the donkey prophecy: "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, (John 12:14)"

Well not really.Where's the chariot?

The quote "as it is written" is referring to Isaiah 21:7. It is important to know that NO WHERE in the New Testament do we see Jesus riding any camel. NO WHERE in the New Testament do we see any fulfillment of any kind about the prophecy of riding the camel.

When we look at Muhammad peace be upon him, he rode the camel several times in his life time. The most popular event of him riding the camel is when he migrated from Mecca to Medina to escape the torture of the pagans.

Surely someone riding a camel in the middle east hardly qualifies as an unusual event.In fact I'd be suprised if Jesus didn't ride a camel at some time or another.And where is the chariot.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

But that is the point, these gods are separate, they are a triad not a trinity, they are not one god.


Only by some idolatrous Catholics!


Proper intercourse did take place, with the substitute.


But not original sin, as in Adam and Eve.


You can't just ignore the sexual elements of Horus's conception, it's nothing like that of Jesus. It's basically just a normal birth.


Really? Like what?

You seem unable to tell the diference between the Structure and the Dogma of the Christian faith, go and do some research, and stop parroting what you hear in Sunday School.


Like what? Surely you jest. How about the Christians who conveniently ignore the tenets of "Love thy Neighbour", "Love one another as I have loved you" and Jesus's acceptance of the disadvantaged and marginalised in their criticism of Homosexuality for a start (following an Archaic law established in the Old Testament, while convieniently ignoring the passages that condemn the ingestion of shellfish and the wearing of synthetic clothing).

 

[Lestat]

Let me preface this by saying that what I know about the history of Islam could be written on a postage stamp.But isn't it possible that the story of the liberation of Mecca, or at least some of the details, have been doctored to make it more like the prophesy?

Definately not. The events described above are accepted historical fact by both western and Islamic sources.

The Islamic empire was far advanced of any other nation at the times, and shortly after the death of the prophet, the muslims of the time rather accurately recorded the history of Islam in very accurate detail. Now of course we can say that humanity has a habit of exagerating, and doctoring history to suit its own needs, however, what makes the recording of Islamic history unique in this regard, is that many of the events recorded actually portray the muslims in a bad light. eg, the Killing of Imam Hussien at Karbala, the civil war between Imam Ali and Mu'awiyah, and the bickering and fighting between the companions shortly after the death of the prophets.

I would recommend that you read the book 'The History of Islam' (3 volumes...rather thick, however, very interesting, I guarantee you will not be able to put it down) by Akbar Shah Najeebadi.

You will see that one major difference between the recording of Islamic history, and that of the west, is that the muslim historical scholars (some, not all) have been rather critical if Islam when it needed to be.

Isn't a chariot a Roman word for a horse drawn cart?

Well the word chariot is the english translation, of the Greek translation...of the original aramic translation which is the original language of the Bible.

I am unaware of the original aramic term used for 'chariot', so its very possible that with each translation, the term changed its meaning ever so slightly.

Of course, I am assuming here. I'm just going by the King James Bible which I have read, and know.

I thought Jesus rode on it's back.

yes....I concur. So perhaps your assumption that the term 'chariot' refers to its Roman meaning, is an incorrect assumption.

Just goes to show, that when a book is changes, and translated as such so many times, by so many people, the original message gets changes, manipulated, and modified. Hence it ceases to be the word of God.

On reading the King Jamesversion it maybe suggesting a group of Asses(a chariot of asses) together which he would then ride with one foot on each?But he never did that either.

Hence, my assumption that the 'chariot' refers to the riding of an ass, or camel. Of course, my assumption may also be incorrect.

But they lived in different times.

The prophet Isiah never claimed that they would live at the same time.

Well not really.Where's the chariot?

Perhaps there never was a chariot. I will do some research on the meaning of the word 'chariot', will investigate what the original greek or aramic word was used, and its meaning.

Perhaps if someone else knows, maybe they can shed some light on it.

Birdy perhaps.

Surely someone riding a camel in the middle east hardly qualifies as an unusual event.In fact I'd be suprised if Jesus didn't ride a camel at some time or another.And where is the chariot.

As I said earlier, Jesus is never once mentioned in the Bible as 'riding a camel', whereas he is mentioned riding an 'ass'.

No, riding a camel in the middle east hardly qualifies as an unusual event, I agree with you there.

however, the point that I was making is that this prophecy by Isiah (pbuh) was not fullfilled by Jesus (in the Bible) nor by any other prophet besides Jesus.

It was however, fullfilled by Muhummed (phuh) during the Hijra when the Prophet escaped the tyranny and the assanition attempt by the pagan Quraish tribe of Mecca.

Both the riding of the ass by Jesus, and the riding of the camel by Muhummed, were pivotal moments in the lives of the prophets, and there calling of the masses to the religon of God.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Just to sidetrack for a minute, Lestat - is it possible to obtain an english translation of the Quran? I'm interested in reading it to become better informed about Islam, out of personal interests sake.

 

[Lestat]

Just to sidetrack for a minute, Lestat - is it possible to obtain an english translation of the Quran? I'm interested in reading it to become better informed about Islam, out of personal interests sake.

Yeah....they are rather common these days. You can find them almost anywhere, however, I would recommend that you steer clear of the 'Penguin Books' version, or those versions which are mass produced, as they are quite often bad translations, and the meaning easily gets lost in the translations.

Saying that...I feel that I should make it clear now that any translation of the Quran, is just that, a translation, and in no way can it be described as the Quran.

Once the Quran is translated, it ceases to be the word of God, and becomes ones interpretation of the word of God. This rule applies to any book (imo)...be it the Bible, Torah or Lord of the Rings.

Go to any Islamic book store in your area, and you'll find the translated Quran in abundance. I would also suggest that the copy you buy, also contains an explanation of the verses, there meaning, its context, and the pervailing situation in Arabia when the verse came to the Prophet.

eg. there are many verses in the Quran which ONLY related to certain events at the time, which have been incorrectly interpreted by muslims, and non muslims alike, to be law.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Yeah....they are rather common these days. You can find them almost anywhere, however, I would recommend that you steer clear of the 'Penguin Books' version, or those versions which are mass produced, as they are quite often bad translations, and the meaning easily gets lost in the translations.

Saying that...I feel that I should make it clear now that any translation of the Quran, is just that, a translation, and in no way can it be described as the Quran.

Once the Quran is translated, it ceases to be the word of God, and becomes ones interpretation of the word of God. This rule applies to any book (imo)...be it the Bible, Torah or Lord of the Rings.

Go to any Islamic book store in your area, and you'll find the translated Quran in abundance. I would also suggest that the copy you buy, also contains an explanation of the verses, there meaning, its context, and the pervailing situation in Arabia when the verse came to the Prophet.

eg. there are many verses in the Quran which ONLY related to certain events at the time, which have been incorrectly interpreted by muslims, and non muslims alike, to be law.

Cheers, will have to keep an eye out.

 

[Lestat]

Evo,

I have been unable to find any info yet on the word 'chariot' and its meaning in regards to Isiah's prophecy. However, I found something rather interesting when reading the whole verse....

1 The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.
2 A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous dealer dealeth treacherously, and the spoiler spoileth. Go up, O Elam: besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease.
3 Therefore are my loins filled with pain: pangs have taken hold upon me, as the pangs of a woman that travaileth: I was bowed down at the hearing of it; I was dismayed at the seeing of it.
4 My heart panted, fearfulness affrighted me: the night of my pleasure hath he turned into fear unto me.
5 Prepare the table, watch in the watchtower, eat, drink: arise, ye princes, and anoint the shield.
6 For thus hath the LORD said unto me, Go, set a watchman, let him declare what he seeth.
7 And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed:
8 And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights:
9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.
10 O my threshing, and the corn of my floor: that which I have heard of the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, have I declared unto you.
11 The burden of Dumah. He calleth to me out of Seir, Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?
12 The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will enquire, enquire ye: return, come.
13 The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.
14 The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.
15 For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war.
16 For thus hath the LORD said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail:
17 And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it.


I took particular notice of the following line....

And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.


Now what is a chariot of men, with a couple of horseman??

Perhaps the meaning of the term 'chariot' may refer to a 'caravan'...which was the most common means of travel at the time of both Jesus and Muhummed.

Can any shed any light on this??

Roylion??

 

[evo]

I had a quick search around and all references to 'chariot' always refer an actual cart.Not a 'caravan' or group of people.Always a thing.


here is wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot#Chariots_in_the_Bible

I googled Isaiah 21:7 the first item was this link.It looks like a christian site.Seems to cover your concerns.(saved you the trouble Birdy)

Isaiah 21:7
"And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed."

Problem:
The Moslem argument goes along these lines: "Who was the rider on the ass? Every Sunday school student will know him. That was Jesus (John 12:14). Who, then, is the promised rider on a camel? This is the Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] If this is not applied to him then the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. That is why Isaiah mentioned further in the same chapter (Isa. 21:13) the burden upon Arabia which means the responsibility of the Arab Muslims, and now of course of all Muslims, to spread the message of Islam."1

Solution:
The passage does not describe a man riding on a donkey at all. In the AV it describes a chariot pulled by donkeys although the word could refer to riders and is translated as such in the RSV and some other modern versions. When Jesus rode into Jerusalem he had no chariot, and in any case the prophecy in Isaiah suggests that several riders are involved. The choice for the camels is between a chariot (Muhammad never used one) or several riders.

Not only that, but the passage includes a third group, a chariot of horses. This group doesn't fit into the Moslem picture at all; for an adequate interpretation of the prophecy all the elements have to be used.

In fact the prophecy is about Babylon. The wilderness of the sea (v. 1) is an area of the Babylonian empire (now in southern Iraq). In verse 9 we read the outcome, "And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken to the ground." The prophecy is of a successful invasion of Babylon from Persia by way of the desert of the sea, and was fulfilled before the time of Jesus.

The burden of the Arabs (vs. 13-17) describes the fall of the children of Kedar (Arab tribes who were troubling Judah) within a year of the prophecy being given by Isaiah.
The Moslem interpretation of this prophecy hardly fits it at all, and it is difficult to think why they should use it.

http://www.bbie.org/WrestedScriptures/A08Islam/Isaiah21v7.html

Now a couple of questions to you Lestat.(Here's where I really show my ignorance.)

1. Why do you write(peace be upon him) after you mention Isaiah's name.What is he to Islam?I understand why you do it after mentioning Muhummed but why this prophet.Do you do it after every prophet?If so how does one qualify as a true prophet in your eyes.Was Nostradamus a prophet?

2.Why is so important to religious people that Isaiah prophesy's be fulfilled?From what I've read he was a fellow who lived aprrox. 750b.c.

Can't ,say Jesus, still be the 'son of God' without fulfilling this guys prophesy's?

 

[Qsaint]

I forgot to add that Santa was invented by Coca Cola.

The modern Santa Claus is a composite character made up from the merging of two quite separate figures. The first of these is Saint Nicholas of Myra, a bishop of Byzantine Anatolia (now in modern-day Turkey) famous for his generous gifts to the poor. In Europe he is still portrayed as a bearded bishop in canonical robes. The second character is Father Christmas, which remains the British name for Santa Claus. Father Christmas dates back at least as far as the 17th century in Britain, and pictures of him survive from that era, portraying him as a well-nourished bearded man dressed in a long, green, fur-lined robe. He typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, and was reflected in the 'Spirit of Christmas Present' in Charles Dickens' famous story, A Christmas Carol.

When the Dutch still owned the land that later became New York, they brought the Saint Nicholas' eve legend with them to the Americas, but without the red mantle and other symbols. The name Santa Claus is derived from the character's Dutch name, Sinterklaas. Note that in Dutch, the feast is called 'sinterklaas feest' and it celebrates the birthday ((Conflict: The Saint_Nicholas page states that it's his death day, not his birth day.)) of sinterklaas during sinterklaasavond ("sinterklaas's evening") on December 5th or in Belgium on December 6th.



..............................................


It should be noted that the festivities at this time of year are predated by the Roman Saturnalia and Yule festivals which were subsumed within Christianity. It should also be noted that the date of Jesus' birth is not known. The connection between Saturnalia and Jesus' birth was a clerical decision in order to introduce a religious element into the more carnal festivities that the Christian laity were indulging in during winter solstice. As an example of the still surviving pagan imagery, in Nordic countries there is the Yule goat (Swedish julbock), a somewhat startling figure with horns which however will deliver the presents in Christmas eve, and a straw goat is a common Christmas decoration.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_claus

So charles dickens is god

 

[Lestat]

Now a couple of questions to you Lestat.(Here's where I really show my ignorance.)

Will reply to the rest of your post Evo, when I have the time. However, at work now, but will answer what I can quickly.

1. Why do you write(peace be upon him) after you mention Isaiah's name.What is he to Islam?I understand why you do it after mentioning Muhummed but why this prophet.Do you do it after every prophet?If so how does one qualify as a true prophet in your eyes.Was Nostradamus a prophet?

Isiah was a prophet of God, hence the pbuh. As muslims, we bless all the prophets that we know of, most of them that we know are mentioned in the Bible/Torah, as well as the Quran. Some of those who are mentioned in the Quran as prophets, are not so in the Bible eg. David and Solomon. Adam is a prophet in the Koran, whereas I don't believe he is so in the Bible.

Where as there are some who are in the Bible, but not in the Koran.

However, the Koran tells us that there were over 100,000 prophets of God sent to mankind, and there is not one race or peoples all over the world, who did not recieve a prophet. This tells me that there must be thousands of prophets who were neither mentioned in the Quran, or the Bible.

The aboriginals had there prophets, the red indians had there prophets, the moari's, the South Americans...etc, etc. The message of God was propagated to all these peoples, in there own distinctive way, with the will of God. Now who are these prophets....I would not have a clue.

Now your right, how do I know who is and isn't a prophet. Well in reality, I don't know. But what I do know is that the Prophet Muhummed was the last prophet, the seal of the prophet, and his message was meant for all mankind.

So any man who claims prophethood after the prophet (trust me, there's been hundreds, the majority of them muslims....2 weeks after the death of the prophet, a guy by the name of Musalamah al-Kadab claimed he was the prophet of God, and successor to Muhummed, despite the fact that the Quran is rather clear in this regard) is a false prophet...as God through the Quran has told us that Muhummed was to be the final prophet.

2.Why is so important to religious people that Isaiah prophesy's be fulfilled?From what I've read he was a fellow who lived aprrox. 750b.c.

Any prophecy be it in the Bible/Quran must be fullfilled, for if they are not, then that immediately raises a big question mark over the fundamentals of the religous beliefs.

Now some may yet to be fulfilled, and may be fullfilled in the future. Some may have been fulfilled in the past. However, with the prophecies that I have raised in the Bible, they are centred on Jesus.

And some, it is rather clear, have not been fullfilled by Jesus(pbuh), and NEVER will be fullfilled by Jesus(pbuh).

eg. Within his generation the will Romans will be defeated, and evicted from the promised land. This has not been, nor will ever be achieved by Jesus(pbuh)....however, this is exactly what Muhummed (pbuh) did.

Can't ,say Jesus, still be the 'son of God' without fulfilling this guys prophesy's?

Yes, but with Isiah's prophecy, I wasn't intending to prove that Jesus wasn't the 'son of God'...( I believe I have done that elsewhere)

My point was that there are many prophecies in the bible where have not and never will be fullfilled by Jesus.

Birdy challenges us to list which Bible prophecies have not been proven true, and I have listed a number.

 

[evo]

Thanks for the answer lestat That made it fairly clear however can I just ask you about this.

Isiah was a prophet of God, hence the pbuh

This goes back to the criteria question.Is the fact that he has his own book in the bible and is recognised as a prohpet there, all there is to it?

Who decided originally that he was a prophet?I notice he was married to a woman known as "the prophetess" Maybe she was the real prophet.

If the Quran pronounced that there were more than 100,00 prophets, it appears to me at least ,that the bar must've been set fairly low.


Interesting that you say the Muhummed is 'the final prophet'

That would suggest to me that Islam would not recognise the entire religion of Mormon as that was founded by the prophet Joseph Smith Jnr in 1830s.

In fact their are many people claimed and recognised by their disciples as prophets, post Muhummed.
So these are all false prophets?No offense, but this appears to me a little arrogant on the part of Muslims.I guess it's their religion so they/you can believe what you like but what first sounded quite inclusive has now become a bit exclusive in regards to other religions.

 

[Birdy]

Copied??

Definately not. Have you read the Quran?

How can you say it was copied. The Quran is the completion of the religon of God, which includes some stories which were also in the Bible and the Torah.

I've never heard the claim it was copied, I just think it was written or recited by a good man corrupted by Satan.

I find it ammusing when all these people make comment on the Quran, when 95% of you probably have never read it (I apologize in advance if I am assuming incorrectly).

I've read parts of the Qu'ran and Hadiths but I would like to read it all properly one day when I get some spare time.

Birdy, Its rather obvious that you need to learn and study your own religous book, instead of parroting what your 'father' at the church has told you. So is your priest your 'father'...or is it just symbolic. Your priest isn't your father is he, just as God isn't Jesus's father.

Correct, Jesus and God are both God, but Jesus is said to be the Son in the sense that He is God in the flesh.

But just out of curiousity, how do you explain the prophecy in the Bible which states that the Romans would be defeated by the 'messiah', within his generation.

This never happened, so how do you explain this. Just one of many prophecies, which were not fullfilled by Jesus, but were, however, fullfilled by Muhummed.

Unlike Islam, there are no failed prophecies. You have probably misread something so you'll have to quote which passage you are referring to.

Oh...and tell me, when exactly did Jesus establish God's Kingdom on earth. When did this happen? The Romans ruled Palestine (the promised land)for 600 years after the death of christ. So its rather obvious that Jesus never established any sort of kingdom on earth. The rulers of Palestine (romans) ruled Palestine before Jesus, during Jesus, and long after Jesus, until the teachings of Muhummed (the final prophet, the seal of the prophets) spread his message of tawhid (the oneness of God), and after his death, his generation (companions) fullfilled the prophecy of the Bible, and defeated the Romans, conquered Palestine (the promised land) and the promise that God made to Abraham was fullfilled (Abraham's decendants would rule over Palestine......not the descendants of Isaac, but the descendants of Ishmael)

God's kingdom on earth will be established at the second coming of Christ, it is not a failed prophecy but one that is yet to be fulfilled.

Oh, and please explain to me again how it is possible that God who ordered Abraham to sacrifice is 'ONLY' son, how can that son have been Isaac, when Isaac was 7 years younger then Ishmael. Are you aware of the concept of an 'only son'. How can Isaac have been the son in question, when he already had an older brother.

Are you aware that an 'only son' in the OT can also mean the only one of it's kind, or unique? Isaac was the son promised to Abraham, not Ishmael, even the Qu'ran agrees with that.

Oh, and show me once again where Jesus says he is the son of God??

http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am!” Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Thomas the disciple declared to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. Although He never commands people to worship Him, He never discourages it either. If Jesus was not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity. The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty.

You say that the Quran has holes in it. Tell me Birdy...what exactly are these holes.

After I've looked at this book you've conveniently left me I'm sure we could find some.

 

[MightyFighting]

His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty.

Who was the "penalty" paid to, if god is the only authority in the world?

 

[Lestat]

This goes back to the criteria question.Is the fact that he has his own book in the bible and is recognised as a prohpet there, all there is to it?

I am unsure of what the criteria is for one to be/not be considered a prophet. However, who is or isn't a prophet is irrelevant. What is important is the message itself.

I don't know whether Isiah was or wasn't a prophet. I assume that because he was in the Bible (stated as a prophet), and the Quran tells us that the Bible was originally (in its purest form before the translations, corruptions and exagerations) was the word of God, then I am assuming that Isiah is a prophet of God, as his message was similar to all the other prophets of God.

Of course, it is possible that Isiah never even existed, and that the Book of Isiah is a total fabricated inclusion. If this is the case, then obviously my assumption is wrong, and he was not a prophet.

In Islam, there are two types of prophets. Those that spread the message of God only orally, by word of mouth. These are known as 'nabi', translated as messenger. Then there are those messengers who were given the word of God, scriptures such as the Bible, Torah, the Psalms, and Quran. These are known as 'rasool', which is loosely translated as 'reciters', since they recited the word of God, which was then recorded as a book.

Who decided originally that he was a prophet?I notice he was married to a woman known as "the prophetess" Maybe she was the real prophet.

Only Allah knows who is or isn't a prophet. And those that are explicitally named in the Quran, are prophets, as we believe that the Quran is a word of God.

As for the rest, only Allah knows.

If the Quran pronounced that there were more than 100,00 prophets, it appears to me at least ,that the bar must've been set fairly low.

Why so?

By definition a prophet of God is any person who was ordered by God to spread His message to the people. Now for God to truly spread his word to all the people of the earth (and not just some select 'chosen people) then isn't it plausible to believe that thousands of prophets would have needed to be sent to millions of peoples, all over.

Its not about the bar being low or not, it is about God sending his message and guidance to ALL of mankind. Not just the jews, or the arabs, but EVERYONE.

God does not discriminate between races.

Interesting that you say the Muhummed is 'the final prophet'

It is not what I say, it is what the Quran says.

That would suggest to me that Islam would not recognise the entire religion of Mormon as that was founded by the prophet Joseph Smith Jnr in 1830s.

Islam recognises the people of the book, that being the jews and Christians.

Now any person claiming prophet hood after Muhummed (pbuh), then quite clearly, as muslims, we are to not to believe them. As to believe them would amount to claiming that the Quran is wrong (which I'm sure you'd understand would take you out of Islam).

So no, we do not recognise the prophethood of Joseph Smith. Just as we do not recognise the prophethood of Ba'hai, Ahmedia (all 'muslims' who claimed prophethood after the prophet) as well as Nostradumus, and David Koresh.

Perhaps they may have been prophets..who knows, however, prophets of God (messengers of God), they were not. Why, because the Quran tells me that Muhummed(pbuh) was the seal of the prophets. The last prophet. And with Muhummed, the message of God was completed.

Allah says in the Quran....

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)

Now if I were to believe that there may have been other prophets after Muhummed (pbuh) then am I not then denying what God has said above. Am I not claiming that God 'hadn't' perfected His religion??

In fact their are many people claimed and recognised by their disciples as prophets, post Muhummed.

Thats fine. They have every right to believe what they like. And I have every right not to believe what they believe.

Allah says in the Quran....

"Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine. "

So as you see, they can believe what they want. To me it is irrelevant to what I believe. I believe in what is in the Quran, and the hadith....anything outside of this, for me is irrelevant.

This is not arragonce, it is my religous beliefs.

So these are all false prophets?No offense, but this appears to me a little arrogant on the part of Muslims.

It is not on the part of muslims at all. We have not made this up. This is what is in the Quran. You have to understand, that we believe the Quran is the word of God. Are you saying that, in order to not be seen as 'arragont' that we muslims, ought to disregard the word of God.

No offence, but whether or not others see me as 'arragont' is rather insignificant when it comes to how God will judge me.

I guess it's their religion so they/you can believe what you like but what first sounded quite inclusive has now become a bit exclusive in regards to other religions.

But it is inclusive, in regards to all humanity, not in regards to beliefs.

If someone believes something that is contrary to what Allah has told us in the Quran, then how can you expect muslims or islam to accept there beliefs. Thats just illogical.

In the Qur'an, Allah says:

"We have sent you (Muhammad) as a mercy for all nations."
[21:107]

Thus Islam is not restricted to any particular race or nation, as many other religions are, but is universal, meaning that its message applies to all humanity, at all times, in all places.

Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet and messenger, his message applies to all future generations. All previous prophets, from Adam, Noah and Abraham to Moses and Jesus, were also Muslims:

 

[Lestat]

The first thing that one should know and clearly understand about Islam is what the word "Islam" itself means. The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of Christianity which was named after Jesus Christ, Buddhism after Gotama Buddha, Confucianism after Confucius, and Marxism after Karl Marx. Nor was it named after a tribe like Judaism after the tribe of Judah and Hinduism after the Hindus. Islam is the true religion of "Allah" and as such, its name represents the central principle of Allah's "God's" religion; the total submission to the will of Allah "God". The Arabic word "Islam" means the submission or surrender of one's will to the only true god worthy of worship "Allah" and anyone who does so is termed a "Muslim", The word also implies "peace" which is the natural consequence of total submission to the will of Allah. Hence, it was not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) I in Arabia in the seventh century, but only the true religion of Allah re-expressed in its final form.

Islam is the religion which was given to Adam, the first man and the first prophet of Allah, and it was the religion of all the prophets sent by Allah to mankind. The name of God's religion lslam was not decided upon by later generations of man. It was chosen by Allah Himself and clearly mentioned in His final revelation to man. In the final book of divine revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah states the following:

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)

"Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim." (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:67)

Nowhere in the Bible will you find Allah saying to Prophet Moses' people or their descendants that their religion is Judaism, nor to the followers of Christ that their religion is Christianity. In fact, Christ was not even his name, nor was it Jesus! The name "Christ" comes from the Greek word Christos which means the annointed. That is, Christ is a Greek translation of the Hebrew title "Messiah". The name "Jesus" on the other hand, is a latinized version of the Hebrew name Esau.

As for Jesus, his religion, it was what he called his followers to. Like the prophets before him, he called the people to surrender their will to the will of Allah; (which is Islam) and he warned them to stay away from the false gods of human imagination.
According to the New Testament, he taught his followers to pray as follows: "Yours will be done on earth as it is in Heaven".

Since the total submission of one's will to Allah represents the essence of worship, the basic message of Allah's divine religion, Islam is the worship of Allah alone and the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than Allah.Since everything other than Allah, the Creator of all things, is Allah's creation; it may be said that Islam, in essence calls man away from the worship of creation and invites him to worship only its Creator. He is the only one deserving man's worship as it is only by His will that prayers are answered. If man prays to a tree and his prayers are answered, it was not the tree which answered his prayers but Allah who allowed the circumstances prayed for to take place. One might say, "That is obvious," however, to tree-worshippers it might not be. Similarly, prayers to Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna, to Saint Christopher, or Saint Jude or even to Muhammad, are not answered by them but are answered by Allah. Jesus did nottell his followers to worship him but to worship Allah. As the Qur'aan states:

"And behold Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary Did you say to men, Worship me and my mother as gods besides Allah He will say-"Glory to you I could never say what I had no right (to say')" (Soorah Al-Maa'idah- 5:116)

Nor did he worship himself when he worshipped but rather he worshipped Allah. This basic principle is enshrined in the opening chapter of the Qur'aan, known as Soorah Al-Faatihah, verse 4:

"You alone do we worship and from you alone do we seek help".
Elsewhere, in the final book of revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah also said:

"And your Lord says:"Call on Me and I will answer your(prayer)."(Soorsh Mu'min 40:60)

it is worth noting that the basic message of Islam is that Allah and His creation are distinctly different entities. Neither is Allah His creation or a part of it, nor is His creation Him or a part of Him.

This might seem obvious, but, man's worship of creation instead of the Creator is to a large degree based on ignorance of this concept. It is the belief that the essence of Allah is everywhere in His creation or that His divine being is or was present in some aspects of His creation, which has provided justification for the worship of creation though such worship maybecalled the worship of Allah through his creation. How ever, the message of Islam as brought by the prophets of Allah is to worship only Allah and to avoid the worship of his creation either directly or indirectly. In the Our'aan Allah clearlystates:

"For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet,(with the command) worship me and avoid false gods " (Soorsh Al-Nahl 16:36)

I hope this helps you understand a little better the muslim perspective, and how the other religons tie into the beliefs of muslims. (from the Islamic POV)

 

[Birdy]

But fine...if you are to believe in the trinity, then can you please answer one question to me, I've asked this question to many, and have yet to recieve and plausible explanation.

Why, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the least, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?

I'm not going to pretend to know the trinity, it is something beyond the understanding of any human. There has always been just one God revealed to us through scripture, but there are three aspects to Him. The only reason I can think of is that it wasn't necessary or appropriate to reveal the trinity before we had seen the Son.

Now perhaps I can point you to the many propecies IN THE BIBLE regarding Muhummed (pbuh) as the final prophet of God.

In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses peace be upon him predicting that GOD Almighty will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10,000 of Believers:

"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (From the King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

The very same prophecy was also made by Prophet Enoch peace be upon him:

Enoch says...

"Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Now...if you know anything about the history of Islam, you would know that the city of Mecca (Paran) was liberated by Prophet Muhammad's 10,000-men army, from the rule of pagan idols, which had occupied the city for hundreds of years.

Now, since these prophecies were foretold in the Bible's Old Testament, I would like to openly challenge you, or any Jewish Rabbi or Christian Priest or Minister to answer the following question for me:

Where in the Bible do we see any Prophet executing the Judgement of GOD Almighty specifically in the city of Paran (Mecca, the city that Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael to)?

It doesn't say a Prophet, it clearly says the Lord. Are you now claiming Mohammed is God? And biblical Paran is not Mecca, it's in Sinai as indicated in the OT.

Num 12:16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.
Num 13:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
Num 13:2 Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them.
Num 13:3 And Moses by the commandment of the LORD sent them from the wilderness of Paran: all those men were heads of the children of Israel.

Now lets move on shall we....

Prophet Isaiah (pbuh) prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel:

"And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)"

Who are the "couple of horsemen"? They are Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them.)

Jesus fulfilled the riding of the donkey prophecy: "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, (John 12:14)"

The quote "as it is written" is referring to Isaiah 21:7. It is important to know that NO WHERE in the New Testament do we see Jesus riding any camel. NO WHERE in the New Testament do we see any fulfillment of any kind about the prophecy of riding the camel.

When we look at Muhammad peace be upon him, he rode the camel several times in his life time. The most popular event of him riding the camel is when he migrated from Mecca to Medina to escape the torture of the pagans.

For one thing it says riding on a chariot, not a camel. When did Mohammed ever ride a chariot? However it doesn't matter as these verses are clearly referring to the message being received of the fall of Babylon.

Isa 21:9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.