Preview Lions 2019 Discussion

[SizeMatters]

Fair reasoning jackess & I appreciate your considered, non confrontational response. It may well be time to admit to myself the club values things differently.

Whilst your points have the highest probability of being on the money, I'll back the longshot "Robinson to be a Lion for the next two years" for the following reasons: AFL is a business. Robinson's average showing in the B&F belied his League Rankings in key areas. Poor B&F results give the Club an upper hand in player negotiations. Robinson wanted a 2 year deal & on the Lions radio show he said the Club told him they want him for 2 years but can only offer him a one year deal. This was a good business move by the club, they knew he'd take it. If his 2019 output (not B&F placing) warrants a further years extension (I haven't seen signs of him slowing down), the Club will extend him & get him for close to minimum wage. It's just good business. By 2020 the club will need a few players to be taking unders financially to balance the TPP.
Players who have been shown the door by a club for behavioural issues & facing football oblivion, can be superb investments for Clubs. The New Club throws the player a lifeline by way of a small contract, the player knows they're on their last chance, takes the unders & pulls their head in. Such players will for the remainder of their career be offered & accept low $ value contracts. The poorly behaved player has bought this situation upon themselves. A good example of this is type of scenario is Martin Pike who told Open Mike that he never received a pay rise at the Lions and was on a $150K base.

Fan favourites will be traded & delisted. Players & supporters will be upset. Success of the Team & Club is what it's all about. Whatever transpires, I trust & support Fagan & his teams' decisions. They have already shown themselves to be a pretty nifty bunch.

So you're suggesting the Lions rigged the Best and Fairest count to keep Robbo for unders?

That is some tin foil hat stuff right there.

 

[Gadzorks]

With the influx of older players, I feel the younger leaders of the future ought step back for now, improve their game & learn as much as they can from their more senior team mates. Andrews, Berry etc. etc. will be seasoned enough to be great leaders in 2-3 years time.
My stab at it, assuming Zorko takes a step back for personal reasons, is C:Hodge VC:Martin DVC:Robinson

Im not sure about hodge as captain - definitely is perfect for the job but his job description is develop the young players. To me that means he supports the young leaders and helps them find their leadership style, gives them feedback on the way they handle the role on field and boosts their confidence by reflecting with them on how to handle different personalities etc the same way as he does with vision from the sideline.

It’s not the same if he is captain - yes they can watch and learn, but they need to be in the position to experience actually leading. Thinking you know what you would/should do and being in the hot seat are very very different.

 

[Gadzorks]

Mitch is 29 and turns 30 next year. Do we still have the only sign one year at a time for 30+ yo policy? If you negotiated at 28yo for a three year deal you play to 31 automatically, but as mitch’s contract expired at 29 he may be victim of that policy.

FWIW I don’t think the club rate him as highly as his stats and on field morale boosting deserve. IMO anyway.

 

[dlanod]

Mitch is 29 and turns 30 next year. Do we still have the only sign one year at a time for 30+ yo policy? If you negotiated at 28yo for a three year deal you play to 31 automatically, but as mitch’s contract expired at 29 he may be victim of that policy.

FWIW I don’t think the club rate him as highly as his stats and on field morale boosting deserve. IMO anyway.

I think we still do have that policy, but I don't think it applies here as we've signed players to multiyear deals until they turn 31 before. Rich and Zorko are both current examples, and indeed Zorko is older than Robinson.

OTOH the actual policy itself, despite the club having claimed it's hard and fast when negotiating with guys like Black in the past, is obviously a bit more fungible than they like to let on because guys like Stef signed a three year extension to cover his age 30-32 seasons.

 

[irel]

I agree with dlanod as much as the club would like to implement close to 30 years of age and it's 1 year contracts this is very much dependent on circumstance at the time of negotiation. It would have been negligent if the club offered Martin 1 year deal, knowing that he was a critical element of the development of the side and risking loosing him and exposing our ruck division to be carried by inexperienced rookies. or even worse searching to find someone of equal quality to trade and paying overs in the process. There's no question that Mitch provides value on and off the field in our cultural shift and developmental growth. However in the scheme of things currently he is in the expendable category as younger hungrier more talented players such as Starcevich, Lyons etc... have him in the gun-sight. So if Mitch or others of his ilk such as Bastinac would like to extend their AFL career it's going to be a year by year proposition subject to performance KPI's.

 

[Billy Puller]

Zorko will still be our captain next year not sure why people are even discussing otherwise

 

[Lions Flag 2020]

I agree with dlanod as much as the club would like to implement close to 30 years of age and it's 1 year contracts this is very much dependent on circumstance at the time of negotiation. It would have been negligent if the club offered Martin 1 year deal, knowing that he was a critical element of the development of the side and risking loosing him and exposing our ruck division to be carried by inexperienced rookies. or even worse searching to find someone of equal quality to trade and paying overs in the process. There's no question that Mitch provides value on and off the field in our cultural shift and developmental growth. However in the scheme of things currently he is in the expendable category as younger hungrier more talented players such as Starcevich, Lyons etc... have him in the gun-sight. So if Mitch or others of his ilk such as Bastinac would like to extend their AFL career it's going to be a year by year proposition subject to performance KPI's.

The younger ones might have Mitch in their gun sights but they have to pass him first and he isn't going to go down without a fight. Exactly what Fagnob want I suspect.
I think Hugh, Witho and the like feel a bit more comfortable when Mitch is out there too.

 

[Gadzorks]

My like strategy- saying something nice about Mitch and I’m all over with likes. So if you want to bump up your likes ...

 

[bungalow_bill]

The younger ones might have Mitch in their gun sights but they have to pass him first and he isn't going to go down without a fight. Exactly what Fagnob want I suspect.
I think Hugh, Witho and the like feel a bit more comfortable when Mitch is out there too.

You can see from my avatar that Witho doesn't mind instigating a bit of argy bargy

 

[BerryGood13]

Jarryd Lyons #17 according to Rayner’s Instagram story.

 

[dlanod]

You & your "likers" can live with your naivety in regards to how business works. Care to explain how J Lyons didn't make the top 10 in the Suns B&F?

The team knows how much they're willing to offer the player. A B&F finish wouldn't affect that. So I guess you're suggesting players are dumb and hook their remuneration demands to B&F finishes instead of actual on/off-field metrics? The Lyons one makes even less sense since he was still under contract.

 

[carnaroys08]

Zorko will still be our captain next year not sure why people are even discussing otherwise

Think Todd Goldstien & what hassles seeing his kids did to his head & form. I certainly hope Zorko get's his fair share of custody & will be ok.

 

[jackess]

I'm not suggesting players are dumb in any way. I'm saying your naive in this instance.

It just conveniently fits with your opinion

 

[dlanod]

I'm not suggesting players are dumb in any way. I'm saying your naive in this instance.

Actually you are:

Robinson's average showing in the B&F belied his League Rankings in key areas. Poor B&F results give the Club an upper hand in player negotiations.

You're claiming that Robinson and his agent can't distinguish between his own performance and what happens in a club award when determining what he will accept for his next contract. You're just trying to wave your hand over it and pretend its not by claiming there's a conspiracy.

 

[carnaroys08]

Actually you are:

Robinson's average showing in the B&F belied his League Rankings in key areas. Poor B&F results give the Club an upper hand in player negotiations.

You're claiming that Robinson and his agent can't distinguish between his own performance and what happens in a club award when determining what he will accept for his next contract. You're just trying to wave your hand over it and pretend its not by claiming there's a conspiracy.

Do you really believe Robinson's 2018 AFL Rankings (compared to his team mates *who play similar roles*) were in line with his B&F performance? I've listed some key indicators in this thread.

edit * *

 

[carnaroys08]

It just conveniently fits with your opinion

Correct, it does fit with my opinion.

 

[jackess]

Do you really believe Robinson's 2018 AFL Rankings (compared to his team mates) were in line with his B&F performance? I've listed some key indicators in this thread.

He'd have better stats than Dizzy but surely you can appreciate stats aren't everything.

 

[carnaroys08]

I agree with dlanod as much as the club would like to implement close to 30 years of age and it's 1 year contracts this is very much dependent on circumstance at the time of negotiation. It would have been negligent if the club offered Martin 1 year deal, knowing that he was a critical element of the development of the side and risking loosing him and exposing our ruck division to be carried by inexperienced rookies. or even worse searching to find someone of equal quality to trade and paying overs in the process. There's no question that Mitch provides value on and off the field in our cultural shift and developmental growth. However in the scheme of things currently he is in the expendable category as younger hungrier more talented players such as Starcevich, Lyons etc... have him in the gun-sight. So if Mitch or others of his ilk such as Bastinac would like to extend their AFL career it's going to be a year by year proposition subject to performance KPI's.

I agree the Club has many young players like Starcevich, Lyons etc. etc. who really need more game time for their development. I also think Robinson may be a casualty, on occasion, of this need. If Robinson is plays to the standard he did last season, I think he would be invaluable to the team come finals time next season. So far as Robinson being offered a 1 year deal; I think it was a wise decision by the Club.

 

[carnaroys08]

He'd have better stats than Dizzy but surely you can appreciate stats aren't everything.

Apples & Oranges, but your point that stats aren't everything is correct. Comparing Robinson with rotators/wingers/small forwards gives a pretty good indication.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Love Robbo not sure he fits the face of the club, liasing with sponsors etc etc side of things. Ripper bloke don't get me wrong not sure he fits the captain mould though.

 

[Brett C]

You & your "likers" can live with your naivety in regards to how business works. Care to explain how J Lyons didn't make the top 10 in the Suns B&F?

Wow if you do think that the club/coaches vote based on contract status or as a renegotiating tactic then you've jumped the shark. Lyons didn't make the Suns top 10 because he obviously wasn't following the coaching staffs instructions, probably why he got dropped and they were happy for him to go.

When was the last time you heard a player blow up about where they finished in the B&F?? You'll find Jarrod was well aware of the the Suns concerns around his game and areas of improvement.

 

[Brett C]

Do you really believe Robinson's 2018 AFL Rankings (compared to his team mates *who play similar roles*) were in line with his B&F performance? I've listed some key indicators in this thread.

edit * *

No one is saying that Mitch isn't a good player but to then think that the club has an agenda against him does lose you a lot of credibility. He's a guy that if the list keeps going will struggle to get a game after next year.

Has some really strong points but then a decent amount of weaknesses.

 

[carnaroys08]

No one is saying that Mitch isn't a good player but to then think that the club has an agenda against him does lose you a lot of credibility. He's a guy that if the list keeps going will struggle to get a game after next year.

Has some really strong points but then a decent amount of weaknesses.

I don't see it in terms of the Club having an agenda against him. I see it as the Club doing what's in the best interests of the Club, Members & Supporters. If you don't believe Clubs have a few tricks up their sleeve which they use to ease their nightmare of contract negotiations, that's ok. I believe Clubs adopt business tactics in player contract negotiations out of necessity. As a fan it hurts to see such a player like Robinson cop unders when imo there are players who were given overs by the previous Football Department.

Me using the term naive was wrong & I apologise to those I directed that comment to. I recognise such language is out of line. At the end of the day we all love the Maroon & Blue.

Robinson may struggle to get a game 2020 due to list improvement. I'd be pleasantly surprised if he's not "rested" during this season in order to get games into young blokes. The list will improve no doubt. I have confidence that his form will hold up, so if the younger players force him out of the side due to form, fantastic. To me, that would mean the Lions will have arrived as a powerhouse in the League.

In relation to Lyons B&F ranking last season, we have differing opinions & that's fine.

 

[Billy Puller]

I don't see it in terms of the Club having an agenda against him. I see it as the Club doing what's in the best interests of the Club, Members & Supporters. If you don't believe Clubs have a few tricks up their sleeve which they use to ease their nightmare of contract negotiations, that's ok. I believe Clubs adopt business tactics in player contract negotiations out of necessity. As a fan it hurts to see such a player like Robinson cop unders when imo there are players who were given overs by the previous Football Department.

Me using the term naive was wrong & I apologise to those I directed that comment to. I recognise such language is out of line. At the end of the day we all love the Maroon & Blue.

Robinson may struggle to get a game 2020 due to list improvement. I'd be pleasantly surprised if he's not "rested" during this season in order to get games into young blokes. The list will improve no doubt. I have confidence that his form will hold up, so if the younger players force him out of the side due to form, fantastic. To me, that would mean the Lions will have arrived as a powerhouse in the League.

In relation to Lyons B&F ranking last season, we have differing opinions & that's fine.

How do you know he got unders?

 

[carnaroys08]

How do you know he got unders?

He got a 1 year deal, that was unders. The $ value of his contract has not been reported. But let's face it, after he was kicked out of Carlton he was always going to be paid unders. Can you suggest a number?