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Opinion Major changes for 2023

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Crusty Demon said:
Gawn plays his best behind the ball taking contested marks. Would much rather he did that than play forward being all useless besides 1 or 2 games a season. Grundy will allow this more and allow Gawn a week rest here and there as well.
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He can't play back anymore, teams that are any good don't go long down the line to him anymore.
 
Although schmuttt is right about Grundy. We are the most damaging centre square side in the game and if Grundy can be a dominant centre square ruck and stoppage ruck that will help our scoring way more than a key forward.
 
Our biggest concern going into next year is during the H/A we actually scored 50 more points than 2021 so we were actually a better side offensively and only 50 points worse off defensively.
However last year we conceded 90 points only once. This year it was 5x in the second half of the year. Our defence doesn't stop the best even though thats our gameplan, whereas the attacking sides in the prelims minus Brisbane actually defended against the top 8 better

The 4 sides in the prelim are the 4 most attacking sides with Richmond. Everything I look at I think we are stuffed.
 

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schmuttt said:
What needs to change:

  • The biggest one is the coaches embracing and encouraging a more risky style of ball movement. Sure we might cough up a few goals on the counter but * me we still coughed up a bunch against good teams just hacking it down the line. A lot of the stuff I mention below this won't matter if this doesn't change. A great example of our reluctance to do so this year is how ANB is locked into the 22 every week despite giving us * all offensively because the coaches like his 'defensive running'. FMD would it kill us to have some pricks that can create scores outside Fritta and Kozzy?
  • Brayshaw back to half back. Doesn't offer anything different in the middle and he was legit AA form at half back
  • A willingness to throw different guys into the centre square. So often we just go with Oliver/Viney/Trac/Brayshaw and maybe Sparrow once in a blue moon. What happened to Kozzy in the middle like in 2021 to start a game?
  • Sparrow plays primarily midfield or is out of the side.
  • ANB and Spargo on notice with Chandler, Laurie and any other in form half forward at VFL level plays over them if they continue this rubbish form. They can also replace Sparrows nothing role floating forward-mid
  • Grundy is coming and we can't stop it so I'd imagine he does a lot of centre square rucking and Gawn is forward. This 'could' work as despite Jacksons trajectory Grundy is still much better at this stage of their careers, and we should see an improvement in clearances due to this. Whether Gawn actually does anything up forward is completely up to Max and how much he devotes himself to forward craft, he isn't going to ever be a gun forward but he gets enough shots at goal already to kick 35 goals if he kicks a bit better
  • Hunt out for Bowey and Salem put on serious notice. I've come around to trading Salem even though they'll never do it, bloke is a massive waste of ability. Bowey at least tries to create by foot, Turner is a bit similar to Lever so not sure he replaces Salem but we need to get a set back 6 and let them gel like we did in 2021
  • Trac goes to the same school of finishing that Gawn has to attend and gets more of a go up forward. It was quite mind boggling that Trac had a few really good weeks playing a close to 50-50 mid/fwd split, then Brayshaw goes into the middle and Tracs forward minutes go DOWN????
  • Brown out for good, JVR and TMac are the KPFs for round 1 next year. Weideman I'd trade for a packet of chips but no-one will take him, and we can't cut Brown with two years to go on his deal

The team I'd ideally go with for round 1 next year:

Lever May Hibberd
Bowey Petty Brayshaw
Langdon Viney Jordon
Laurie TMac Kozzy
Fritsch Gawn JVR
Grundy Oliver Petracca
Rivers Spargo Sparrow ????

Salem for me starts in the 2s unless he gets an attitude adjustment, he needs a rocket. Rivers hasn't set the world on fire either but I do like his endeavour more than Salem.
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You haven’t included the crumbing ruck and Trac should be medical sub
 
Topkent said:
Our biggest concern going into next year is during the H/A we actually scored 50 more points than 2021 so we were actually a better side offensively and only 50 points worse off defensively.
However last year we conceded 90 points only once. This year it was 5x in the second half of the year. Our defence doesn't stop the best even though thats our gameplan, whereas the attacking sides in the prelims minus Brisbane actually defended against the top 8 better

The 4 sides in the prelim are the 4 most attacking sides with Richmond. Everything I look at I think we are stuffed.
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These are excellent points. I think to counter them we need to add a young midfielder who is fanatical about tackle pressure and chasing. A midfield of Oliver/Trac/Brayshaw/Viney is just never going to spread hard defensively. Our current next men in are Jordon and Sparrow who don't have the pace.

Someone who has the defensive intensity of a Tom Atkins or Andrew Brayshaw is what we need to add to the mix.

And the second thing we need is to develop our half backs into better players, or bring in new ones. We are so flimsy when the ball hits the deck in defensive 50 and we also get no drive at all compared to the way Sydney, Collingwood and Geelong drive off half back.

I don't think we can afford to be complacent and think that Hibberd/Salem/Hunt/Rivers are going to get it done. Good teams all have elite half backs.
Brayshaw and Bowey is probably the best combo on the list at the moment. Have to let Bowey attack from half back instead of being too defence-first.
 
Topkent said:
Our biggest concern going into next year is during the H/A we actually scored 50 more points than 2021 so we were actually a better side offensively and only 50 points worse off defensively.
However last year we conceded 90 points only once. This year it was 5x in the second half of the year. Our defence doesn't stop the best even though thats our gameplan, whereas the attacking sides in the prelims minus Brisbane actually defended against the top 8 better

The 4 sides in the prelim are the 4 most attacking sides with Richmond. Everything I look at I think we are stuffed.
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I don’t disagree, but if we can get our overall pressure from last back to something a bit more respectable, I think this all looks a bit less grim.
 
Watching our performance and then Fremantle's performance back to back made one thing very clear. If your game plan is to refuse to kick to dangerous space in your forwardline, then you can't beat sides with good intercept defenders.

It was so noticeable in both games that the defenders down the line just take boundary side of their opponent knowing we/Freo wouldn't use the central part of our attacking end. They know that 75% of the ground is off limits to us so they load up the space where we are going to kick it. That means when we do kick boundary side every kick is to the advantage of the defender rather than the forward.

It was ridiculous when they showed the down-the-ground angle in those games how often Lobb/Brown had to come from the disadvantaged position just to make a contest. If we'd have been prepared to kick to the central part of our forward line then our tall forwards would have had a run and jump at it without body contact.

That's the major change that has to happen with the gameplan. The idea that you kick to the zone which makes a quick turnover less likely needs to go in the bin. Once you start kicking to the open space where we're most likely to take a mark and kick a goal then you stop handing the ball straight back to the opposition repeatedly.
 
Topkent said:
Our biggest concern going into next year is during the H/A we actually scored 50 more points than 2021 so we were actually a better side offensively and only 50 points worse off defensively.
However last year we conceded 90 points only once. This year it was 5x in the second half of the year. Our defence doesn't stop the best even though thats our gameplan, whereas the attacking sides in the prelims minus Brisbane actually defended against the top 8 better

The 4 sides in the prelim are the 4 most attacking sides with Richmond. Everything I look at I think we are stuffed.
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The league was higher scoring this year. Adding 50 points was below league average. 2018 we were the highest scoring team in the league, now we attack in a way that we are set up defensively. Goodwin has to get the mix right for us to be a chance next year.
 
LarryDavidNeitz said:
These are excellent points. I think to counter them we need to add a young midfielder who is fanatical about tackle pressure and chasing. A midfield of Oliver/Trac/Brayshaw/Viney is just never going to spread hard defensively. Our current next men in are Jordon and Sparrow who don't have the pace.

Someone who has the defensive intensity of a Tom Atkins or Andrew Brayshaw is what we need to add to the mix.

And the second thing we need is to develop our half backs into better players, or bring in new ones. We are so flimsy when the ball hits the deck in defensive 50 and we also get no drive at all compared to the way Sydney, Collingwood and Geelong drive off half back.

I don't think we can afford to be complacent and think that Hibberd/Salem/Hunt/Rivers are going to get it done. Good teams all have elite half backs.
Brayshaw and Bowey is probably the best combo on the list at the moment. Have to let Bowey attack from half back instead of being too defence-first.
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It was super noticable with Collingwood how they had Daicos and Maynard taking on really dangerous kicks and then Quaynor and Crisp exploding off half back. We have hunt but it feels like he never explodes through the corridor from a turnover.
 
Greg Stafford is our forward line and ruck coach. Let that sink in.
 
Tulip said:
Greg Stafford is our forward line and ruck coach. Let that sink in.
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This absolutely has to change. A good forwards coach would do wonders, including the fact if they were doing their job there would be some internal pushback at Goody and Yze for having a gameplan which makes our forwards look like spuds.
 

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Topkent said:
It was super noticable with Collingwood how they had Daicos and Maynard taking on really dangerous kicks and then Quaynor and Crisp exploding off half back. We have hunt but it feels like he never explodes through the corridor from a turnover.
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Absolutely. Our two lockdown defenders in Hunt and Hibberd are currently the two most likely to go for a dash. That's not how it should be.
 
Topkent said:
It was super noticable with Collingwood how they had Daicos and Maynard taking on really dangerous kicks and then Quaynor and Crisp exploding off half back. We have hunt but it feels like he never explodes through the corridor from a turnover.
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Agree. Hunt tried it a couple of times in the back end of the year to negligible effect from what I remember, but we're so static around the ground that it's kind of pointless doing it in our current setup.
You don't even necessarily need super quick blokes for it either with the stand rule. A smart run and handball can easily open up space for someone to run into off the back of a mark.
 
LarryDavidNeitz said:
Absolutely. Our two lockdown defenders in Hunt and Hibberd are currently the two most likely to go for a dash. That's not how it should be.
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Rivers can, but somehow we've killed his confidence.
 
Topkent said:
Rivers can, but somehow we've killed his confidence.
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Yeah he can but I think because he's not a great defender he is nervous to use his assets in that regard.
Maybe he and Bowey could develop into a good duo but not if they we don't adapt the game plan to encourage them to run and attack.
 
There's a heap of changes needed, but can we just be better to watch? Went to a bunch of games this season, and apart from a couple, they were an absolute slog, no wonder our crowds don't make noise. As problematic as were in 2018, **** we were fun to watch, it all ended in crap, but that was exciting footy. We're obviously a defence based side, but our forward movements are horrible viewing, low percentage kicks to the pocket, we don't even kick goals from stoppages anyway, so what's the point? Boy do we love to concede goals from defensive stoppages however.

Get JVR in and someone else, bring some excitement back in our forward 50.
 
If we're going to persist with Hunt he needs to be given licence to straight line the ball and run with it, like he was doing in the last 5 mins against Carlton.

His disposal is still questionable, but it's clear that if he just straight lines the ball / contest he can actually offer something different to the team.
 

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Dancing Potato said:
If we're going to persist with Hunt he needs to be given licence to straight line the ball and run with it, like he was doing in the last 5 mins against Carlton.

His disposal is still questionable, but it's clear that if he just straight lines the ball / contest he can actually offer something different to the team.
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Agree. I think he does try harder with his kicks too, looks for shorter options more. Could be a pretty handy runner off HB if we open up more
 
Topkent said:
Although schmuttt is right about Grundy. We are the most damaging centre square side in the game and if Grundy can be a dominant centre square ruck and stoppage ruck that will help our scoring way more than a key forward.
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Being a good centre square team is a myth.

Out of the 24 Matches this year, we lost centre clearance 12 times, Drew 1, Won 11 times. So in reality, we are an average centre square side.

Against top 8 teams, we played 13 games, we lost 7 times, tied once, won 5.

Round 1: LOST 9-18 (Dogs)
Round 2: WON 18-9 (Suns)
Round 3: LOST 10-15 (Ess)
Round 4:LOST 8-10 (Port)
Round 5: LOST 12-14 (Gws)
Round 6: WON 37-28 (Rich)
Round 7: WON 14-12 (Haw)
Round 8: WON 15-11 (Stk)
Round 9: WON 12-10 (WCE)
Round 10: WON 13-10 (North)
Round 11: LOST 10-14 (Frem)
Round 12: TIED (Syd)
Round 13: WON 14-7 (Coll)
Round 15: LOST 11-14 (Bris)
Round 16: WON 14-12 (Adel)
Round 17: LOST 8-16 (Geel)
Round 18: LOST 11-13 (Port)
Round 19: WON 19-14 (Dogs)
Round 20: LOST 7-12 (Freo)
Round 21: WON 21-7 (Coll)
Round 22: LOST 9-10 (Carl)
Round 23: LOST 9-16 (Bris)
Final Wk 1: LOST 10-11 (Syd)
Finals Wk 2: WON 14-11 (Bris)
 
Seeing Gawn at full forward makes me think the whole thing is doomed to fail.

I really think the Grundy deal will absolutely hamstring us going forward. Neither of these two have ever kicked more than 16 in a season. If Gawn could kick straight, he could maybe kick 30, but that's not a good return for a FF in a good team and its an abysmal return for a guy on his coin.

I get that they're being "creative" and that they had made plans for Jackson and his role in the team, and that there are no dominant KPFs on the market, but this stinks to me of a list management team with the same hubris as the coaching and playing groups this season. Thinking they can turn anything into gold because we won the flag last year.

There's a reason the Pies are sacrificing Grundy to bring in the likes of Bobby Hill and Tanner Bruhn. They recognise their strength is the pressure game, and that Darcy Cameron will do well enough as first ruck to allow them to play the game they want to play. In the process, they can remove a big salary and bring in more young, hungry players.

Sure, our strength is "the contest", but guess what: you don't have to win every hit out to take advantage of it. Opposition mids this season, despite Gawn's continuing statistical dominance in the middle, are evidence of that. We have three inside midfielders contracted to the end of this decade on massive money. Back those ****ers in to win the ball at times when their ruckman isn't winning the taps, and put some money into the rest of the team to ensure we don't have to keep plugging round holes with square pegs up forward. Weideman will never be the future, and Ben Brown is cooked. McDonald is 30 coming off a massive injury, and has really only had two good seasons in the last five years anyway. JVR looks good, but he's never played a game at this level so we're going in blind there.

The worst thing you can do as a club when you have a disappointing season, particularly after pretending it wasn't happening at the time and that major changes weren't needed as we would "click into gear when needed", is to keep on digging downwards because the plan worked for so long. Bringing in Grundy makes absolutely no sense at all to me, but sadly it looks like its definitely going to happen.
 
danster168 said:
Being a good centre square team is a myth.

Out of the 24 Matches this year, we lost centre clearance 12 times, Drew 1, Won 11 times. So in reality, we are an average centre square side.

Against top 8 teams, we played 13 games, we lost 7 times, tied once, won 5.

Round 1: LOST 9-18 (Dogs)
Round 2: WON 18-9 (Suns)
Round 3: LOST 10-15 (Ess)
Round 4:LOST 8-10 (Port)
Round 5: LOST 12-14 (Gws)
Round 6: WON 37-28 (Rich)
Round 7: WON 14-12 (Haw)
Round 8: WON 15-11 (Stk)
Round 9: WON 12-10 (WCE)
Round 10: WON 13-10 (North)
Round 11: LOST 10-14 (Frem)
Round 12: TIED (Syd)
Round 13: WON 14-7 (Coll)
Round 15: LOST 11-14 (Bris)
Round 16: WON 14-12 (Adel)
Round 17: LOST 8-16 (Geel)
Round 18: LOST 11-13 (Port)
Round 19: WON 19-14 (Dogs)
Round 20: LOST 7-12 (Freo)
Round 21: WON 21-7 (Coll)
Round 22: LOST 9-10 (Carl)
Round 23: LOST 9-16 (Bris)
Final Wk 1: LOST 10-11 (Syd)
Finals Wk 2: WON 14-11 (Bris)
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Danster, you're killing me here. This is genuinely useful analysis. Made worse by the amount of money our rucks are/will be on next season. We have five inside midfielders that get a game at every club, and our #1 ruckman plays like he's never met them or observed their running patterns.
 
Tulip said:
Danster, you're killing me here. This is genuinely useful analysis. Made worse by the amount of money our rucks are/will be on next season. We have five inside midfielders that get a game at every club, and our #1 ruckman plays like he's never met them or observed their running patterns.
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haha, cheers. With 3 all Australians in our starting midfield our clearance numbers are inexcusable. Not only that, Goodwin never tried to change up the personnel. 😞
 
We're only a good centre square team in that when we get it right we can get some good looking clearances where we burst out the front. The way we flick it round in there trying to engineer that though also leads us to concede plenty of clean clearances for the opposition as well.

It's also noticeable that we get our half forwards to move boundary side to try and open up the space for our mids to run towards 50. Problem with that is most times we get a quick kick out of the centre it gets marked by the opposition half backs
 

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